H. R. 1022

[Furd]

Ideal.

 

That way, when my son goes over to his friends house to play, I won't have to worry that his dad mistakenly left his gun cabinet unlocked.

 

Thanks for making my point.

 

 

 

Well, I bet you that its far more likely that your neighbor's dog is running loose, or that your neighbor has some sort of dangerous substance that your kid can reach or maybe the door to his basement is open.

 

Do you worry about those things?

[Doc Holliday]

Five Killed at Pa. Amish School

After Attack, Gunman Fatally Shoots Himself

 

Tuesday, October 3, 2006; 12:30 PM

 

BART TOWNSHIP, Pa., Oct. 3 -- Five young Amish girls are dead, and five more are seriously injured, after being lined up in their one-room school Monday and shot "execution style" by a heavily armed milk truck driver who then took his own life, police said.

 

Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, was armed with three guns, two knives and 600 rounds of ammunition when he burst into the schoolhouse, forced the girls to line up against a blackboard and shot them at close range in the back of the head, police said.

 

Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, a milk truck driver from the town of Bart, Pa., killed himself after allegedly shooting and killing at least five Amish students and wounding several others in a one-room schoolhouse, Pennsylvania state police Commissioner Jeffrey B. Miller said Monday.

 

Pennsylvania State Police commissioner Col. Jeffrey B. Miller, who described the crime scene as "horrendous," said Roberts apparently was motivated by rage over a long-ago incident unconnected to the school or the Amish community.

 

Roberts lived in the area, but was not Amish. He was armed with a semiautomatic handgun, a rifle, a shotgun and a stun gun, police said, and had no known criminal history.

 

"Apparently there was some sort of an issue in his past that he, for some reason, wanted to exact revenge against female victims," Miller said. "It's obvious to us that this was a premeditated hostage scenario where, I believe, based on what the investigators have so far, he intended not to walk out of there alive. But he also intended to kill innocent victims."

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________

An 'all-American boy' ...an American tragedy

By SIMONE WEICHSELBAUM, BOB WARNER & REGINA MEDINA

simone@phillynews.com 215-854-5324

 

IT STARTED on Monday afternoon with a scene that could have happened in any American household: A 16-year-old boy comes home from high school with a bad report card, and is ordered by his parents to buckle down or else.

 

But this time , for some reason, it triggered a very public tragedy the following day in the hallway of a Montgomery Count y high school — sending bullets flying and students scurrying for cover, bumping Iraq off the national cable news for a time , and shattering a close -knit suburban community.

 

When the chaos had finally ended yesterday, the 16-year-old — Shane Halligan, an Eagle Scout with dreams of a military career — was dead from a self-inflicted blast from the sawed-off AK-47 he had smuggled into Springfield High School in a duffel bag.

 

And the boy's father, John Halligan, found himself speaking at a vigil last night in front of the high school's towering flagpole , surrounded by a sea of dozens of candles held by his son's friends and clas sma tes.

 

"I was floored by this," he told the crowd. "I truly believed he wouldn't hurt himself. ..." Halligan begged the teenagers to always share their emotions with family and friends: "You gotta talk." On one level, Shane's suicide was a kind of American tragedy, touching on the hot-button issues of guns in schools and kids' access to firearms, metal detector s in schools, the pressure on today's teens and the effect on their mental health.

 

And the incident that erupted about 9:15 a.m. yester day in a crowded hallway at Springfield High also left details tha t will haunt the eyewitnes ses: Shotgun blasts that ripped large holes in the surrounding cinder blocks; the hall monitor who pleaded with Shane , through the window of a classroom door, to put down the gun.

 

But the real tragedy of Shane Halligan is the intensely personal one: What happens in the mind of a teenager to prompt a violent and very public act over what should have been a minor event? "Remember , you're talking about a 16yearold whose mind is not fully developed, obviously , and things bother some adolescents more than they perhaps logically should," Montgomery County District Attorney Bruce Castor told a crowded news conference yesterday. "My best guess is that it was to go out in a blaze of glory with a lot of attention brought to it. There doesn't seem to be any other conclusion." Certainly , there were no warning signs. Shane Halligan was part of a well-known family in the area around Springfield Township and Oreland, where he lived.

 

The boy's uncle Joe Halligan owns Halligan's Pub in Flourtown and manages a local country club .

 

His grandmother was a highschool bus driver in Springfield Township for many years.

 

Shane Halligan was both well liked and active in the community, a young volunteer firefighter in Oreland in recent months in addition to his involvement as an Eagle Scout in a troop led by his da das scoutmaster .

 

"He was a good, quiet, neighborhood boy," said Jona than Fitzner, 73, neighbor of the Halligans and a pastor at Flourtown Church of God. "We knew him since he was little . He was always kind. There was nothing unusual we could notice about him." Shane was also "anxious to begin a career in the U.S. Army," according to D.A. Castor, and had made plans to attend an Army boot camp this summer befor e starting his senior year. Ultimately, he wanted to study aerospace, his friends say, and maybe fly helicopters in the National Guard.

 

About a month ago, Shane brought twine to school and taught his U.S. history class how to make rope , friends said. Shane always talked with his peers about scouting and the military .

 

"He was a walking history book," said 11th-grader Edward Arentzen. "He was a World War I and World War II type of guy. ... Sometimes he would wear [camouflage] to school." But apparently Shane convinced himself that his dreams of attending boot camp and of fighting fires were imperiled by poor grades on his last two report cards .

 

According to Castor, Shane took his latest report card home on Monday, but when his father asked if he had it with him, Shane initially lied and told him no. But Castor said his father had gone through the school bag himself and found the report card, which was "not to his and his [shane's] mom's liking." "They did what all concerned parents would do," Castor said, "and told Shane , 'You do need to keep your grades up, you have all these other things. If you want to be involved with the military, you're going to have to cut back and not run out on fires.' " The boy agreed, and there seemed to be no further problem. In fact, the family shared a normal breakfast yesterday, Castor said .

 

These both happened in the last several months here in PA...without much thought on my part searching for them. I am sure there were countless other deaths caused by "legal" weapons. Rather pathetic.

 

I have my hobbies, too, but if, for the greater good of the nation, they were outlawed, I would have no problem with it.

 

I wonder why so many gun activists can't also put down their weapons for the greater good of the nation???

 

 

Blame the people who did these horrible things and not the gun. you think if people would do these types of things that it would stop if you outlawed guns? people would just use something else.

 

People need to learn to blame people and not objects for what is wrong in this world.

[Perchoutofwater]

Blame the people who did these horrible things and not the gun. you think if people would do these types of things that it would stop if you outlawed guns? people would just use something else.

 

People need to learn to blame people and not objects for what is wrong in this world.

 

But those people grew up with out a daddy, and their mama beat them, and their priest looked at them funny.

[yo mama]

I understand your point, but think the term "well regulated" is often misinterpreted. IMO, well regulated was not used to secure or decribe the governments role in controlling arms. Well regulated may be interpreted to mean "well organized and well armed being necessary to the security of a free State."

 

Too many people have come to believe common citizens don't need guns for anything more than protecting life, home and propterty. Some don't even believe guns are necessary for that. "We have the police and army to protect us." World history :coughcough: world history.

Jimmy, I'm with ya on the overall concept and purpose of the 2nd Amendment. And as someone who grew up with guns, and is currently neither pro nor anti gun, I feel that I'm coming at this issue without much bias one way or the other. So bear with me for a moment.

 

I agree that the term "well regulated" is often misinterpreted. But I think it's the gun lobby that's got it wrong. If the founders wanted to say "well armed" or "well organized" they would have. But they didn't. And we know they knew what the word "arms" meant because it appears in the phrase "right to bear arms" later in the same sentence.

 

Fundamentally, this issue comes down to principles of statutory interpretation. Every word is presumed to have its plain meaning. So interpreting the term "well regulated" to mean "well armed" makes about as much sense as interpreting the phare "right to bear arms" to mean "right to bear regulations." I appriciate the tangential legislative history you cite (i.e., the federalist papers), which gives insight to a particular founder/author's view point. But that kind of stuff is only relevant if the plain meaning of something cannot be ascertained from the face of the document itself. That simply isn't the case here.

 

Bottom line, the Supreme Court has never ruled whether the 2nd amendment provides a state right, a group right, or an individual right. The circuits are split on the issue, with the majority (and in my opinion, correct) view being that it is an individual right. However, that (presumably) individual right simply isn't unlimited and the plain language of the 2nd amendment itself says as much. If anything, it's conditioned on an individual's participation in a "well regulated militia." And that's not real shocking, as none of the affirmative rights granted by the Bill of Rights are unlimted. Yes, I have freedom of religion... but that doesn't mean I can do anything I want in the name of my religion. Yes, I have freedom of speech... but there are reasonable limitations on that, too (i.e., commercial speach, hate speach, inciting violence, etc). The 2nd Amendment is no different.

 

And there's one other thing that we all need to be clear on: the 2nd Amendment specifically states that our right to "keep and bear arms" shall not be infringed. Fine. It does NOT explicitly restrict Congress from making certain kinds of guns illegal for manufactur or sale. ALL constitutional rights are subject to laws of general applicability (e.g., the Amish have to obey rules of the road, even though they don't driver cars. Rastafarians can't smoke dope in public, even though it's part of their religion, etc.) So if Congress wants to say a particular gun is illegal for anyone to buy, manufacture, or sell, they can (arguably) do so without running afoul of the 2nd amendment. Hell, technically speaking the 2nd amendment doesn't even protect our right to buy or sell guns: just "keep and bear" them.

 

Bottom line: this issue bugs the crap out of me because most people who have an opinion on it also have an agenda. They'll read parts of the 2nd amendment literally when it suits their cause, and ignore the literal meaning of other portions. They'll read langauge in that doesn't actually appear, but beat other folks over the head with an American flag if someone with a different agenda tries to do the same. So I've really appriciated your thoughtful commentary, and cliche-free discussion on this topic.

Edited March 5, 2007 by yo mama

[Doc Holliday]

But those people grew up with out a daddy, and their mama beat them, and their priest looked at them funny.

 

 

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Blame the people who did these horrible things and not the gun. you think if people would do these types of things that it would stop if you outlawed guns? people would just use something else.

 

People need to learn to blame people and not objects for what is wrong in this world.

oh i blame the people but if they don't have a 100 round magazine, etc they will do a lot let damage...

 

those cheap ass ak knockoffs are about as accurate as drew bledsoe.... you shouldnt be able to have one , i have one and it was 99 bucks.... it is not for hunting or targets or collecting... what is it for???

[Doc Holliday]

oh i blame the people but if they don't have a 100 round magazine, etc they will do a lot let damage...

 

those cheap ass ak knockoffs are about as accurate as drew bledsoe.... you shouldnt be able to have one , i have one and it was 99 bucks.... it is not for hunting or targets or collecting... what is it for???

 

 

So you have 1...but you are saying you should not be able to have 1?

 

I see.

[i_am_the_swammi]

Well, I bet you that its far more likely that your neighbor's dog is running loose, or that your neighbor has some sort of dangerous substance that your kid can reach or maybe the door to his basement is open.

 

Do you worry about those things?

 

Every day of my life...I'm a parent.

 

But I guess since the neighbor's dog has not been responisble for thousands of preventable deaths each and every year, I put more worry into loaded firearms.

[Yukon Cornelius]

So you have 1...but you are saying you should not be able to have 1?

 

I see.

yes,

i bought it cause it is legal and was cheep to see what the hell was the hoopla about... really no need for them at all... id like to sell it but the gun shop guys will only give you 15 for them... junk....

[i_am_the_swammi]

oh i blame the people but if they don't have a 100 round magazine, etc they will do a lot let damage...

 

those cheap ass ak knockoffs are about as accurate as drew bledsoe.... you shouldnt be able to have one , i have one and it was 99 bucks.... it is not for hunting or targets or collecting... what is it for???

 

 

Well put...they are manufactured for the sole purpose of mass destruction. And put into the hands of those who wish to infilct such damage, it is an abomination.

[Doc Holliday]

yes,

i bought it cause it is legal and was cheep to see what the hell was the hoopla about... really no need for them at all... id like to sell it but the gun shop guys will only give you 15 for them... junk....

 

 

You bought it only because it was leagal and cheap ? what will you do if they legalize and lessen the price on cocaine?

[Yukon Cornelius]

You bought it only because it was leagal and cheap ? what will you do if they legalize and lessen the price on cocaine?

no dont like the stuff so even if it was legal i would not perchance it.

[Doc Holliday]

 

Well put...they are manufactured for the sole purpose of mass destruction. And put into the hands of those who wish to infilct such damage, it is an abomination.

 

 

So you think Yukon is gonna go on a killing spree?

 

He seems nice enough to me.

[Doc Holliday]

no dont like the stuff so even if it was legal i would not perchance it.

 

 

But you bought a gun that you think should be illegal.

[i_am_the_swammi]

So you think Yukon is gonna go on a killing spree?

 

He seems nice enough to me.

 

Look at the avy...skulls and the like....nasty guy, me thinks

[Yukon Cornelius]

But you bought a gun that you think should be illegal.

yup

[Doc Holliday]

Look at the avy...skulls and the like....nasty guy, me thinks

 

 

Yeah..and he has shifty eyes too.

[Yukon Cornelius]

So you think Yukon is gonna go on a killing spree?

 

He seems nice enough to me.

i wouldnt use the ak

[Furd]

But I guess since the neighbor's dog has not been responisble for thousands of preventable deaths each and every year, I put more worry into loaded firearms.

 

 

 

How many children somehow get ahold of a gun and use it to injure themselves? (Particularly in neighborhoods such as the one that you live in.)

 

Compare that to the number of children that are bitten by dogs.

 

I'm not going to sugeest what you should or shouldn't worry about, but unless you live in the projects, the chances that your child encounters an unattended gun is infinitesimal.

[Yukon Cornelius]

infinitesimal.

 

 

500$ fine for big words

[Jimmy Neutron]

Five Killed at Pa. Amish School

After Attack, Gunman Fatally Shoots Himself

 

Tuesday, October 3, 2006; 12:30 PM

 

BART TOWNSHIP, Pa., Oct. 3 -- Five young Amish girls are dead, and five more are seriously injured, after being lined up in their one-room school Monday and shot "execution style" by a heavily armed milk truck driver who then took his own life, police said.

 

Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, was armed with three guns, two knives and 600 rounds of ammunition when he burst into the schoolhouse, forced the girls to line up against a blackboard and shot them at close range in the back of the head, police said.

 

Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, a milk truck driver from the town of Bart, Pa., killed himself after allegedly shooting and killing at least five Amish students and wounding several others in a one-room schoolhouse, Pennsylvania state police Commissioner Jeffrey B. Miller said Monday.

 

Pennsylvania State Police commissioner Col. Jeffrey B. Miller, who described the crime scene as "horrendous," said Roberts apparently was motivated by rage over a long-ago incident unconnected to the school or the Amish community.

 

Roberts lived in the area, but was not Amish. He was armed with a semiautomatic handgun, a rifle, a shotgun and a stun gun, police said, and had no known criminal history.

 

"Apparently there was some sort of an issue in his past that he, for some reason, wanted to exact revenge against female victims," Miller said. "It's obvious to us that this was a premeditated hostage scenario where, I believe, based on what the investigators have so far, he intended not to walk out of there alive. But he also intended to kill innocent victims."

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________

An 'all-American boy' ...an American tragedy

By SIMONE WEICHSELBAUM, BOB WARNER & REGINA MEDINA

simone@phillynews.com 215-854-5324

 

IT STARTED on Monday afternoon with a scene that could have happened in any American household: A 16-year-old boy comes home from high school with a bad report card, and is ordered by his parents to buckle down or else.

 

But this time , for some reason, it triggered a very public tragedy the following day in the hallway of a Montgomery Count y high school — sending bullets flying and students scurrying for cover, bumping Iraq off the national cable news for a time , and shattering a close -knit suburban community.

 

When the chaos had finally ended yesterday, the 16-year-old — Shane Halligan, an Eagle Scout with dreams of a military career — was dead from a self-inflicted blast from the sawed-off AK-47 he had smuggled into Springfield High School in a duffel bag.

 

And the boy's father, John Halligan, found himself speaking at a vigil last night in front of the high school's towering flagpole , surrounded by a sea of dozens of candles held by his son's friends and clas sma tes.

 

"I was floored by this," he told the crowd. "I truly believed he wouldn't hurt himself. ..." Halligan begged the teenagers to always share their emotions with family and friends: "You gotta talk." On one level, Shane's suicide was a kind of American tragedy, touching on the hot-button issues of guns in schools and kids' access to firearms, metal detector s in schools, the pressure on today's teens and the effect on their mental health.

 

And the incident that erupted about 9:15 a.m. yester day in a crowded hallway at Springfield High also left details tha t will haunt the eyewitnes ses: Shotgun blasts that ripped large holes in the surrounding cinder blocks; the hall monitor who pleaded with Shane , through the window of a classroom door, to put down the gun.

 

But the real tragedy of Shane Halligan is the intensely personal one: What happens in the mind of a teenager to prompt a violent and very public act over what should have been a minor event? "Remember , you're talking about a 16yearold whose mind is not fully developed, obviously , and things bother some adolescents more than they perhaps logically should," Montgomery County District Attorney Bruce Castor told a crowded news conference yesterday. "My best guess is that it was to go out in a blaze of glory with a lot of attention brought to it. There doesn't seem to be any other conclusion." Certainly , there were no warning signs. Shane Halligan was part of a well-known family in the area around Springfield Township and Oreland, where he lived.

 

The boy's uncle Joe Halligan owns Halligan's Pub in Flourtown and manages a local country club .

 

His grandmother was a highschool bus driver in Springfield Township for many years.

 

Shane Halligan was both well liked and active in the community, a young volunteer firefighter in Oreland in recent months in addition to his involvement as an Eagle Scout in a troop led by his da das scoutmaster .

 

"He was a good, quiet, neighborhood boy," said Jona than Fitzner, 73, neighbor of the Halligans and a pastor at Flourtown Church of God. "We knew him since he was little . He was always kind. There was nothing unusual we could notice about him." Shane was also "anxious to begin a career in the U.S. Army," according to D.A. Castor, and had made plans to attend an Army boot camp this summer befor e starting his senior year. Ultimately, he wanted to study aerospace, his friends say, and maybe fly helicopters in the National Guard.

 

About a month ago, Shane brought twine to school and taught his U.S. history class how to make rope , friends said. Shane always talked with his peers about scouting and the military .

 

"He was a walking history book," said 11th-grader Edward Arentzen. "He was a World War I and World War II type of guy. ... Sometimes he would wear [camouflage] to school." But apparently Shane convinced himself that his dreams of attending boot camp and of fighting fires were imperiled by poor grades on his last two report cards .

 

According to Castor, Shane took his latest report card home on Monday, but when his father asked if he had it with him, Shane initially lied and told him no. But Castor said his father had gone through the school bag himself and found the report card, which was "not to his and his [shane's] mom's liking." "They did what all concerned parents would do," Castor said, "and told Shane , 'You do need to keep your grades up, you have all these other things. If you want to be involved with the military, you're going to have to cut back and not run out on fires.' " The boy agreed, and there seemed to be no further problem. In fact, the family shared a normal breakfast yesterday, Castor said .

 

These both happened in the last several months here in PA...without much thought on my part searching for them. I am sure there were countless other deaths caused by "legal" weapons. Rather pathetic.

 

I have my hobbies, too, but if, for the greater good of the nation, they were outlawed, I would have no problem with it.

 

I wonder why so many gun activists can't also put down their weapons for the greater good of the nation???

 

 

Maybe because it would not be for the good for the nation. Have you been paying attention?

 

Because someone who wants to shoot someone, will find that gun whether or not it is legal. Why would they want to commit an illegal act but stop at breaking the law to acquire said gun?

 

 

 

I have placed my orders for a 155mm tracked howitzer, a MLRS and a shoulder fired anti-tank rocket system from amazon.com. Should be here Monday.

 

 

Excellent - sounds like you're ready for a good weekend desert shoot. I'll bring the tannerite.

[Ursa Majoris]

Excellent - sounds like you're ready for a good weekend desert shoot. I'll bring the tannerite.

 

Tannerite? We don't need no stinkin' tannerite.

[skins]

I agree. I wonder how bad it will get before citizens really revolt. Maybe it'll take a Starbucks tax.

 

 

You cant call for a march on Washington DC to overthrow those you put in power. The rest of us who got it are the only with the moral ability to do that. You have to meekly sit there and keep quiet.