DemonKnight--about your avatar

[wiegie]

I'm guessing that you are advocating the use of capitalism as an economic system because to use something other than that (like socialism or communism) would require the government to remove from people the ability to make personal economic decisions on their own and would instead force them to perform the tasks that the government wanted them to do (perhaps at gun-point, since when you get down to it, the only real way that the government can make anybody do anything is to threaten to use its comparative advantage in violence). Correct?

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

[Ursa Majoris]

I'm guessing that you are advocating the use of capitalism as an economic system because to use something other than that (like socialism or communism) would require the government to remove from people the ability to make personal economic decisions on their own and would instead force them to perform the tasks that the government wanted them to do (perhaps at gun-point, since when you get down to it, the only real way that the government can make anybody do anything is to threaten to use its comparative advantage in violence). Correct?

 

To what degree do socialist / communist governments "remove from people the ability to make personal economic decisions on their own"? Obviously a place like N Korea is almost devoid of the need for money (in theory), since the state controls everything and personal choice is almost zero.

 

But I have seen the governmental systems of e.g. Scandinavia described as "socialist" and their people seem to have no limitations on how they dispose of their personal wealth nor is there government interference in economic choice / work options, other than the raising of taxes which is a fact of life in every system.

[wiegie]

To what degree do socialist / communist governments "remove from people the ability to make personal economic decisions on their own"? Obviously a place like N Korea is almost devoid of the need for money (in theory), since the state controls everything and personal choice is almost zero.

 

But I have seen the governmental systems of e.g. Scandinavia described as "socialist" and their people seem to have no limitations on how they dispose of their personal wealth nor is there government interference in economic choice / work options, other than the raising of taxes which is a fact of life in every system.

 

Scandinavian countries really aren't all that socialist (Socialism is typically defined as when the government owns the means of production in a nation). But the difference in freedom between say Scandinavian countries and the US is that Scandinavians typically have less freedom to do what they want with their gross income. You can't really look at a person's freedom to use their after-tax income as a measure of how much total freedom that person really has. It is true that in almost all countries, citizens must pay taxes, but there is a whole lot of difference in the freedom of someone who gets to keep, say 80% of their gross income versus somebody who only gets to keep say 50% of their gross income (even if the person who gets to keep 50% has the freedom to do with it, pretty much whatever he wants).

Edited April 12, 2007 by wiegie

[Ursa Majoris]

Scandinavian countries really aren't all that socialist (Socialism is typically defined as when the government owns the means of production in a nation). But the difference in freedom between say Scandinavian countries and the US is that Scandinavians typically have less freedom to do what they want with their gross income. You can't really look at a person's freedom to use their after-tax income as a measure of how much total freedom that person really has. It is true that in almost all countries, citizens must pay taxes, but there is a whole lot of difference in the freedom of someone who gets to keep, say 80% of their gross income versus somebody who only gets to keep say 50% of their gross income (even if the person who gets to keep 50% has the freedom to do with it, pretty much whatever he wants).

 

Is the amount of after-tax income truly a measure of freedom when many of the things that a US person must spend that after tax income on are already paid for in the tax paid by the Scandinavian?

 

I'm bored, BTW.

[wiegie]

Is the amount of after-tax income truly a measure of freedom when many of the things that a US person must spend that after tax income on are already paid for in the tax paid by the Scandinavian?

 

I'm bored, BTW.

 

I'm bored too.

 

There is nothing that Americans must buy. But we have the freedom to buy the things that we want; whereas in Scandinavia, the people sometimes must buy things that they would rather not if they could make choices on their own.

[Ursa Majoris]

I'm bored too.

 

There is nothing that Americans must buy. But we have the freedom to buy the things that we want; whereas in Scandinavia, the people sometimes must buy things that they would rather not if they could make choices on their own.

 

I guess that's why Minnesota is so full of Scandinavians then.

[TheGrunt]

I'm guessing that you are advocating the use of capitalism as an economic system because to use something other than that (like socialism or communism) would require the government to remove from people the ability to make personal economic decisions on their own and would instead force them to perform the tasks that the government wanted them to do (perhaps at gun-point, since when you get down to it, the only real way that the government can make anybody do anything is to threaten to use its comparative advantage in violence). Correct?

 

This is an absolutely correct statement. It's the difference between having authority and/or power over someone. You give or have authority over someone by choice, and without fear. If someone has power over the decision's you make (economically too), it's usually not offered by choice. In NO way would I ever give our government the authority to take 50-58% of my income as taxes, so if they did so without my consent and with the use of force then they will have exercised the use of power to control my decisions. This is just another reason why I love capitalism.

 

Wiegie is a very, very smart man.

[bushwacked]

You give or have authority over someone by choice, and without fear. If someone has power over the decision's you make (economically too), it's usually not offered by choice.

 

 

[Ursa Majoris]

This is an absolutely correct statement. It's the difference between having authority and/or power over someone. You give or have authority over someone by choice, and without fear. If someone has power over the decision's you make (economically too), it's usually not offered by choice. In NO way would I ever give our government the authority to take 50-58% of my income as taxes, so if they did so without my consent and with the use of force then they will have exercised the use of power to control my decisions. This is just another reason why I love capitalism.

Say what now?

Wiegie is a very, very smart man.

 

OK, this part is true......mostly.

[wiegie]

This is an absolutely correct statement. It's the difference between having authority and/or power over someone. You give or have authority over someone by choice, and without fear. If someone has power over the decision's you make (economically too), it's usually not offered by choice. In NO way would I ever give our government the authority to take 50-58% of my income as taxes, so if they did so without my consent and with the use of force then they will have exercised the use of power to control my decisions. This is just another reason why I love capitalism.

This, from the same person who just 15 minutes earlier wrote this:

(however, I am all for a nation-wide tax for the research as well).

Edited April 13, 2007 by wiegie

[Chavez]

 

There is nothing that Americans must buy. But we have the freedom to buy the things that we want; whereas in Scandinavia, the people sometimes must buy things that they would rather not if they could make choices on their own.

 

I'd rather not be buying the war in Iraq.

[wiegie]

I'd rather not be buying the war in Iraq.

 

We were talking about after-tax income.

[Chavez]

We were talking about after-tax income.

 

I don't follow - Scandinavians have (significantly) less after-tax income, but what "must" they buy that Americans have a choice on?

[wiegie]

I don't follow - Scandinavians have (significantly) less after-tax income, but what "must" they buy that Americans have a choice on?

 

We were talking about American's after-tax income. (Or more precisely, we were talking about the percent of their income that American's get to take home that Scandinavians do not get to take home because of taxes.)

[dmarc117]

so this is what the lambda lambda lambda house does at night?

[yo mama]

Freedom doesn't necessarily equate to a better standard of living, though. The idea that the more freedom we have, the better our lives are, is an overlysimplistic platitude. If that were the case, we'd all move to Antarcitica or some other equally remote area devoid of governmental regulation.

[wiegie]

so this is what the lambda lambda lambda house does at night?

 

well, this and look at the closed-circuit video of the ΠΔΠ House.

[wiegie]

Freedom doesn't necessarily equate to a better standard of living, though. The idea that the more freedom we have, the better our lives are, is an overlysimplistic platitude. If that were the case, we'd all move to Antarcitica or some other equally remote area devoid of governmental regulation.

 

Nobody is arguing that (at least I'm not). My comment was directed at DemonKnight's avatar which seems to indicate that he is against Capitalism. In order for capitalism to work, there must be a functioning polity that is at least capable of protecting private property rights.

[Chavez]

Freedom doesn't necessarily equate to a better standard of living, though. The idea that the more freedom we have, the better our lives are, is an overlysimplistic platitude. If that were the case, we'd all move to Antarcitica or some other equally remote area devoid of governmental regulation.

 

There is plenty of freedom combined with zero taxes in the Sudan and Somalia.

[yo mama]

There is plenty of freedom combined with zero taxes in the Sudan and Somalia.

 

You first. I'm plenty happy to pay taxes right here. Hell, I'd be willing to pay more if I thought for a second my government had a clue how to spend it right.

Edited April 13, 2007 by yo mama

[Chavez]

You first. I'm plenty happy to pay taxes right here. Hell, I'd be willing to pay more if I thought for a second my government had a clue how to spend it right.

 

I agree 100%.

 

Our favorite Huddle Frenchman once said that his tax burden ran about 25% (taking a quick look at my returns from last year, mine runs about that as well - state, fed, soc sec, and property, didn't even guess at sales taxes) - he figured that whatever went to necessary spending was well worth it, and the waste he considered to be his fee for getting to live in the US. Which, all problems aside, IS a pretty reasonable way to look at it - even if gov't waste runs to 10-15% of your income, why WOULDN'T you pay that to live in a country that is stable, secure from invasion and/or internal strife, and provides services such as clean drinking water, free education, etc?

 

Really, that's a BARGAIN.

[Chavez]

...to continue...

 

 

...hence, those who complain about the high tax burden in the US, even though it is pretty much the LOWEST tax burden you're going to encounter in Western society (Japan being a de facto western nation), should certainly feel free to move to a nation with lower, or even zero taxes.

 

Our gov't is f*cked and overly beholden to special interests, but even they aren't stupid enough to kill the goose. I hope.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

When you calculate the 25% figure, don't forget to add in the deferred tax burden as we continue to run deficit after deficit.

 

TINSTAAFL

[JoJoTheWebToedBoy]

Perhaps a political statement, how we (re our current administration) are engaging in a war to promote capitalism

 

Or could be he just thinks the ava is cool....