Lets Discuss Poker Tournament Poker Strategy

[spain]

I am A LOT better cash game player than tournament player in live action. In my local tournament league, we usually have around 32-38 players and I almost always make the final table. But I never win the dam thing. I typically finish in that 3-8 range. Often times when I get to the final table, there will be 1 or 2 players that have a seemingly unsurmountable mountain of chips, compared to my stack. And I never seem to have enough chips to be competitive.

 

Last night we started with 36 players. I wade through alot of players and make the final table as usual. The blinds are high and I double up the very first hand at the final table when I call the all-in bet of a VERY loose maniac with my pathetic KJ that sucks out. That allows me to make the money, top 4, after watching other players get knocked out in fairly rapid succession. Once we are down to 4, I have ~5k in chips, 2 players have ~50k in chips, and the final guy has me covered but not by much. Ante's are at 300 and blinds are at 800 and 1600, so I am going to have to make a move at some point. But so is the other short stacker. First hand at 4 players and I get 2 red 4's, UTG. I of course, move all in and get called immediately by 1 of the big stacks. Other big stack and the other shorty fold. His K 10 runs down a straight on the river and I am out on my keester.

 

I think in tournaments you must take alot more chances, gamble more to amass enough chips, or go busted, to be effective at the final table. Going into your shell near the bubble is not the way to live if you want to win the tournament. That is only good if you want to make the money. Discuss...

Edited May 12, 2007 by spain

[crispirons]

I am A LOT better cash game player than tournament player in live action. In my local tournament league, we usually have around 32-38 players and I almost always make the final table. But I never win the dam thing. I typically finish in that 3-8 range. Often times when I get to the final table, there will be 1 or 2 players that have a seemingly unsurmountable mountain of chips, compared to my stack. And I never seem to have enough chips to be competitive.

 

Last night we started with 36 players. I wade through alot of players and make the final table as usual. The blinds are high and I double up the very first hand at the final table when I call the all-in bet of a VERY loose maniac with my pathetic KJ that sucks out. That allows me to make the money, top 4, after watching other players get knocked out in fairly rapid succession. Once we are down to 4, I have ~5k in chips, 2 players have ~50k in chips, and the final guy has me covered but not by much. Ante's are at 300 and blinds are at 800 and 1600, so I am going to have to make a move at some point. But so is the other short stacker. First hand at 4 players and I get 2 red 4's, UTG. I of course, move all in and get called immediately by 1 of the big stacks. Other big stack and the other shorty fold. His K 10 runs down a straight on the river and I am out on my keester.

 

I think in tournaments you must take alot more chances, gamble more to amass enough chips, or go busted, to be effective at the final table. Going into your shell near the bubble is not the way to live if you want to win the tournament. That is only good if you want to make the money. Discuss...

 

 

if you were playing tight(i.e. not too many hands, only good ones) you needed to loosen up a bit and try buying some blinds. but, in your case, by the time those guys had ten times the chips you had it was too late. in a big multi player tourney (100 or more) you're goal may be just to make the money. in a game of 30-40, i wouldn't go for anything but the top prize....meaning you will have to make some questionable moves earlier. alot different than cash games where you can win one pot of a couple hundred dollars and be up for the night.

[Zooty]

I think in tournaments you must take alot more chances, gamble more to amass enough chips, or go busted, to be effective at the final table. Going into your shell near the bubble is not the way to live if you want to win the tournament. That is only good if you want to make the money. Discuss...

 

Structure has ALOT to do with it.

 

Most seem to start slow and get very aggressive with the blind schedule as it gets down to the final table. My monthly tournament is about 30 people and "surving" to the final table is easy. Having enough chips to manage the blinds once there is the hard part. Many online ones are the same way. This is not how big money live tournaments operate however. (they typically have 1-2 hours at each level allowing you to be more patient).

 

Most of these then reward players who are very aggressive and build large stacks before the blinds become crazy. It also however increases you odds of getting knocked out early due to the aggressive play.

 

So I agree with your last statement but really only for tournament that have less than 30 mins per level or that have a steep blind structure at the end.

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

I played in my local free roll last night. Similar problem. Now, a free roll is different because you can get a lot of chips early by just being a good player, lots of guys being maniacs trying to get lots of chips, just because it's free. Tourney had 85 people. Blinds go up VERY fast after first four or so, continuing to double instead of a more gradual increase. I got to the final table with ~70k, which was third in chips behind one at ~120k and another at ~95k. Another group of three or four at ~50-60k and three short stacks at under 30k. Blinds were 3000-6000 at the start of the FT. I didn't play a hand until there was 5 left, completely card dead. 3-7 os for three of my first four blinds even. I was short stacked by the time the others had taken out the real shortys. I then got a few hands, doubled up once, and stoll three blinds by going all-in four of six hands. Then called an all in of the other short stack with my JJ, and his A-3 sucked out with an A on the river. Three hands later got JJ again, moved and the big stack called my all in blind. Turned over A-6 os and with an A in the window, I was done. Ended up in 5th, in the money. Paid 160, and I had 80 into it with two add-ons. Got paid, but was really hoping for better. Once you're at the final table, cards play a higher roll I think. Go card dead and you get blinded down real quick.

[The Holy Roller]

The better you are at sucking (out) the better you usually do.

[Big Country]

I think in tournaments you must take alot more chances, gamble more to amass enough chips, or go busted, to be effective at the final table. Going into your shell near the bubble is not the way to live if you want to win the tournament. That is only good if you want to make the money. Discuss...

 

 

Tightening up near the bubble is esactly how to survive to the money but assure yourself that you won't have the ammo to go for the win. Depending on the pay structure, this can be fine, but, if your goal is to win, you must become very aggressive at the bubble to accumulate all of those chips being left out there by the players that are trying to survive.

 

Generally, philosophy is play looser than usual early on when blinds are low. Play the suited connectors and one gappers that can hit monsters and stack people. Don't overpush your big pairs.

 

by the 3rd or 4th level, when the blinds have started to move up, it is time to tighten up. Hopefully at this point you have grown your stack where you can bully the small stacks, but have enough to survive the blinds and be patient enough to wait for a good hand.

 

Bubble is where you open it up.

 

In the money, tighten back up, stack permitting.

 

Now, this is more for large tournies (works great for me in online tournies with 100-200 players)

 

For the smaller tourney like you describe, which sounds very similar to my local tourney, I usually follow the early steps of loosening up preflop when it is cheap, then tightening up for the middle rounds. In these smaller tournies, there just aren't enough total chips in play to have many deep stacks around by the bubble, so you inevitably will have it down to the luck of the cards.

 

On a separate note, I was playing in a turbo tourney last night online. Money is made at 18 players, but 18th thru 10th are essentially your buy in back, and real money isnt made until about 4th spot ($100+ payout for an $11 buyin), With 12 players to go, I get knocked down to 2300 in chips, and blinds are at 1500 and 3000. So, less than one BB. I get KJ and call, fold ot the BB who is automatically called. He had Q5 or something and I hold up. Next hand, I have a weak ace and push with my 5K or so in chips. BB calls with a 24 (for 2k more, and like 10k in pot, easy call). He flops the 4, but I river an ace. Up 20 about 13K. I get dealt aces and puch. Get called by 88. I hold up, up to 27K. Then next hand I get JJ in the BB. small raise in front of me so I push, get called by a medium ace and hold up, and like that up 54K and table leader, #2 in tourney.

 

Ended up busting in 3rd place for a $170 win.

[spain]

I have a question about how I played 1 particular hand in this tourney, because I did receive some criticism for it. For the first couple hours I was card dead. didnt play many hands and the one's I did, I either lost or didnt rake any big pots. So, I am not to the "all in" moment but I am getting short stacked fairly rapidly when the following hand occurs:

 

I am BB. Folds around to the button. He is a very good and aggressive sort of player whose play I respect. He raises to 4XBB. SB folds. I look down and find A9o. My hand is marginal but I do have the rep of a TAG who will defend the blinds. I think for a minute or so about what he could have, and cant decide if he has a hand or is bluffing. But I call and decide that I will wrestle the pot away from him if I get a non-threatening flop. We are heads up. Flop comes 9 7 3 rainbow. I have TPTK and immediately push all in. Again, I made this move hoping that he has 2 overcards and the flop missed him completely, or he was simply trying to steal and hasnt hit the flop. I didnt want or expect a call.

 

He thinks for a long time, which makes me believe he has a made hand but doesnt know if its good. He does ask me if I have A9 and I say I will show him if he folds. He finally calls me with pocket 8's and doesnt improve, doubling me up. That hand really propelled me to a deep run. He said he couldnt believe I pushed all in there. He mentioned it a couple of other times during the night that he didnt like my play at all on that hand. Obviously, I didnt mention that I was planning on making a move on him regardless of the flop. I just said I put him on AK or AQ and I figured the flop missed him. He thought I was bluffing because of my immediate all in motion and because of the uncoordinated board. He continued to insist that I made a bad move in that spot. Any thoughts?

[Zooty]

I have a question about how I played 1 particular hand in this tourney, because I did receive some criticism for it. For the first couple hours I was card dead. didnt play many hands and the one's I did, I either lost or didnt rake any big pots. So, I am not to the "all in" moment but I am getting short stacked fairly rapidly when the following hand occurs:

 

I am BB. Folds around to the button. He is a very good and aggressive sort of player whose play I respect. He raises to 4XBB. SB folds. I look down and find A9o. My hand is marginal but I do have the rep of a TAG who will defend the blinds. I think for a minute or so about what he could have, and cant decide if he has a hand or is bluffing. But I call and decide that I will wrestle the pot away from him if I get a non-threatening flop. We are heads up. Flop comes 9 7 3 rainbow. I have TPTK and immediately push all in. Again, I made this move hoping that he has 2 overcards and the flop missed him completely, or he was simply trying to steal and hasnt hit the flop. I didnt want or expect a call.

 

He thinks for a long time, which makes me believe he has a made hand but doesnt know if its good. He does ask me if I have A9 and I say I will show him if he folds. He finally calls me with pocket 8's and doesnt improve, doubling me up. That hand really propelled me to a deep run. He said he couldnt believe I pushed all in there. He mentioned it a couple of other times during the night that he didnt like my play at all on that hand. Obviously, I didnt mention that I was planning on making a move on him regardless of the flop. I just said I put him on AK or AQ and I figured the flop missed him. He thought I was bluffing because of my immediate all in motion and because of the uncoordinated board. He continued to insist that I made a bad move in that spot. Any thoughts?

 

Not a bad move IMO. Very nice aggressive play on your part. Maybe a marginal call PF but you had good reason and perfect timing. He was just bitter that you hit the 9 on the flop.

 

Really not a bad IMO. More of bad call on his part.

[Timmypg]

I'm not sure that I would have called preflop but after the flop I like your move.

[spain]

Yes, I think he was just confused because he thought I was making a play and didnt connect with the flop. He was right in that was probably what I intended anyway on a bad board, but I did hit TPTK. My quick all in gave more credence to the fact that I was just stealing the pot there. So, when I do flip over the cards he is surprised that I am on that hand.

[Big Country]

Not knowing your exact stack size in relation ot the blinds, seems like you play is pretty standard. A button raise when folded to him could be a hugh range of hands, from a made hand to a blind steal. You have a marginal hand, but, assuming it was a standard 3BB raise, you are getting about 2.25 to 1 on your call, and I am fairly certain (dont have a hand calculator with me) that A9 against a random hand is better than a 30% chance of winning.

 

You hit your card (IMO, hitting an ace would have not really been good for you given his likely range of hands), and, assuming your remaining stack is either smaller than or not much bigger than the size of the pot, the push is a standard play as you are hoping to take it down there, and, if he happened to have woken up on the button with a big pair, that's poker.

 

He's just griping that he lost the preflop race (A9 vs. 88 is I believe about a 48 to 52 dog or so, though that is taking it to the river).

 

IMO, you made a standard play.

 

Side note - cashed in two tournies last night.. one in 18th (the turbo tourney again, so, made like $6 in it) and then another one that paid top 9, and I got knocked out 7th (not bas considering I took a hit right before the money and squeaked to the final table with about 2 BBs, did double up once before getting busted) for a $40 profit.... all of which I quickly lost on a cash table, most when my turned full house lost to his turned quads (also had a flopped flush get run down by runner runner full house).