EliteXC on CBS

[piratesownninjas]

And after tonight, I think we have to see a Nick Diaz/ Noons fight... I hope that Nick Diaz will use his Gracie Jiu Jitsu black belt and takes it to the ground this time around.

[forever in debt to mo lewis]

And after tonight, I think we have to see a Nick Diaz/ Noons fight... I hope that Nick Diaz will use his Gracie Jiu Jitsu black belt and takes it to the ground this time around.

 

lol@your silly post...after tonight...we all know...once again...mma will never top prize fighting....cotto/margo was a classic

[piratesownninjas]

lol@your silly post...after tonight...we all know...once again...mma will never top prize fighting....cotto/margo was a classic

Boxing is 100 years old, MMA isn't even 20... Which one is on CBS? MMA is only going to get bigger and bigger. Just take your hate to another thread. I promise you I'll leave your boxing threads alone.

[forever in debt to mo lewis]

Boxing is 100 years old, MMA isn't even 20... Which one is on CBS? MMA is only going to get bigger and bigger. Just take your hate to another thread. I promise you I'll leave your boxing threads alone.

 

listen..ill agree to disagree....you like your sport..i like mine...but your little cbs card couldnt ever touch what went on in vegas tonight....and theres no question about that....your sport cant match the drama...the people waving their flags....the way people from a fighters city pin their hopes on their boy the way tommy hearns' people did or the way kelly pavliks people do....being on cbs doesnt prove anything....your show couldnt touch the drama and excitement tonights main event in vegas produced....thats that...your sport doesnt have the people flocking to support the tito trinidads and miguel cottos....the mexican fighters like the marquez bros, m.a barrerra, or erik morales.....you cant match it...as much you lil dana white wants o u to believe...his guys are bouncing on him...and they arent well paid....he rapes them...and claims his sport is taking over,...and they arent

[piratesownninjas]

listen..ill agree to disagree....you like your sport..i like mine...but your little cbs card couldnt ever touch what went on in vegas tonight....and theres no question about that....your sport cant match the drama...the people waving their flags....the way people from a fighters city pin their hopes on their boy the way tommy hearns' people did or the way kelly pavliks people do....being on cbs doesnt prove anything....your show couldnt touch the drama and excitement tonights main event in vegas produced....thats that...your sport doesnt have the people flocking to support the tito trinidads and miguel cottos....the mexican fighters like the marquez bros, m.a barrerra, or erik morales.....you cant match it...as much you lil dana white wants o u to believe...his guys are bouncing on him...and they arent well paid....he rapes them...and claims his sport is taking over,...and they arent

Man, I think you're confused with who you're talking to... I'm not a Dana White fan, nor do I care for Kimbo Slice. I'm not a diehard Elite XC guy either, so the card tonight wasn't "my card" but I am a die hard MMA fan. I was afforded the ability to watch the only two blackbelts under Cesar Gracie for free. I'm training 4-6 times a week in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, and boxing so I'm more knowledgeable the some Affliction shirt wearing meathead new comer that you seem to think I am. The majority of those guys just want to see boxing without the gloves anyways.

I love Kelly Pavlik, I like boxing as well, as it's a vital part of the MMA game. I just happen to think that a combination of all of these aspects are better than just one, which is standing up and punching. Yes, I understand boxing, and the science to it. I just think that grappling, fighting for positioning, takedowns, submissions, transitions and choke outs included is a better sport.

As far as people flocking to fighters... You should check out BJ Penn and the entire Hawaii Nation. He's almost a King. The Gracie name alone is royalty in Brazil, Cro Cop is not only a massive celebrity, but also resides on parliment. I think you're a little in denial as MMA fighters are getting more and more air time, on HBO, CBS, Showtime, and ever some morning shows on major networks. MMA is blowing up, and is getting bigger and bigger. As far as drama goes, I guess that's in the eye of the beholder, as I know of no other sport that I get as amped up about as when I hear Hawaii 78 start playing as BJ Penn walks out to the stage.

Also, as far as fighters "bouncing" on the UFC, I think you're a little mis-guided. Tim Sylvia's contract was up and was coming of off back to back losses. He was hated by the fans and was not a big draw. Tito Ortiz is wearing down and has been focusing on things other than MMA for a while now, that paired with a feud between he and Dana led him to leave. Andre Arlovski, who is one of my favorite fighters ever wasn't resigned as he had lost the pit bull mentality that earned him his knickname during his title run. Many will say Randy Couture left the UFC so he could take on Fedor. I think it was because he knew Nogeuira was a horrible match up for him and wanted no part of it. He had a massive contract, so money wasn't the true factor. Couture is the same guy who brokered his own deal. If fighters were so ready to bounce, why does Dana White, the Ferretta Brothers and the UFC own the biggest named fighters in the world? They have the best fighters from top to bottom sans the heavy weights, which are not the biggest draws anyways. When people talk about the best pound for pound fighters they always say Fedor, Anderson Silva, GSP, and BJ Penn. Three of those are signed and happy to be part of the UFC. Affliction paid top dollar for a single fight, which won't hold up. Watch and see what they make at the second and third fights as that will be more indicative of what they make. Regardless if they leave or not, I'm a fan of MMA, not just Dana. Also, fighters make a ton through the endorsments they receive. The elite are getting paid extremely well. You can talk about your matchups as much as you want, but at the end of the day I'll take Fedor/Barnett Penn/GSP Anderson Silva/ Wand Silva any day of the week. It's all about preference, man.

 

But if you want to talk PPV buys...

The UFC broke the pay-per-view industry’s all-time records for a single year of business, generating over $222,766,000 in revenue during 2006, surpassing WWE and boxing. That's UFC, not MMA. A single organization taking on a sport.

 

The fight between De la Hoya and Mayorga drew 925,000 pay-per-view buys in the United States.

UFC 66 (Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz), which drew approximately 1,050,000 pay-per-view buys in the United States

 

The only records that the UFC has not broken are the all-time boxing records for individual events, which still stand at approximately 2.0 million buys for a heavyweight fight and approximately 2.2 million buys for a non-heavyweight fight.

 

A big difference is that boxing doesn't have nearly the amount of cards that are entertaining throughout the year. A lot of what we've posted has been opinion, but the UFC alone has taken over PPV buys, the numbers don't lie. I'm also not saying boxing is dying or dead, just that there is l lot bigger interest in MMA than what you're willing to give it.

[forever in debt to mo lewis]

Man, I think you're confused with who you're talking to... I'm not a Dana White fan, nor do I care for Kimbo Slice. I'm not a diehard Elite XC guy either, so the card tonight wasn't "my card" but I am a die hard MMA fan. I was afforded the ability to watch the only two blackbelts under Cesar Gracie for free. I'm training 4-6 times a week in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, and boxing so I'm more knowledgeable the some Affliction shirt wearing meathead new comer that you seem to think I am. The majority of those guys just want to see boxing without the gloves anyways.

I love Kelly Pavlik, I like boxing as well, as it's a vital part of the MMA game. I just happen to think that a combination of all of these aspects are better than just one, which is standing up and punching. Yes, I understand boxing, and the science to it. I just think that grappling, fighting for positioning, takedowns, submissions, transitions and choke outs included is a better sport.

As far as people flocking to fighters... You should check out BJ Penn and the entire Hawaii Nation. He's almost a King. The Gracie name alone is royalty in Brazil, Cro Cop is not only a massive celebrity, but also resides on parliment. I think you're a little in denial as MMA fighters are getting more and more air time, on HBO, CBS, Showtime, and ever some morning shows on major networks. MMA is blowing up, and is getting bigger and bigger. As far as drama goes, I guess that's in the eye of the beholder, as I know of no other sport that I get as amped up about as when I hear Hawaii 78 start playing as BJ Penn walks out to the stage.

Also, as far as fighters "bouncing" on the UFC, I think you're a little mis-guided. Tim Sylvia's contract was up and was coming of off back to back losses. He was hated by the fans and was not a big draw. Tito Ortiz is wearing down and has been focusing on things other than MMA for a while now, that paired with a feud between he and Dana led him to leave. Andre Arlovski, who is one of my favorite fighters ever wasn't resigned as he had lost the pit bull mentality that earned him his knickname during his title run. Many will say Randy Couture left the UFC so he could take on Fedor. I think it was because he knew Nogeuira was a horrible match up for him and wanted no part of it. He had a massive contract, so money wasn't the true factor. Couture is the same guy who brokered his own deal. If fighters were so ready to bounce, why does Dana White, the Ferretta Brothers and the UFC own the biggest named fighters in the world? They have the best fighters from top to bottom sans the heavy weights, which are not the biggest draws anyways. When people talk about the best pound for pound fighters they always say Fedor, Anderson Silva, GSP, and BJ Penn. Three of those are signed and happy to be part of the UFC. Affliction paid top dollar for a single fight, which won't hold up. Watch and see what they make at the second and third fights as that will be more indicative of what they make. Regardless if they leave or not, I'm a fan of MMA, not just Dana. Also, fighters make a ton through the endorsments they receive. The elite are getting paid extremely well. You can talk about your matchups as much as you want, but at the end of the day I'll take Fedor/Barnett Penn/GSP Anderson Silva/ Wand Silva any day of the week. It's all about preference, man.

 

But if you want to talk PPV buys...

The UFC broke the pay-per-view industry’s all-time records for a single year of business, generating over $222,766,000 in revenue during 2006, surpassing WWE and boxing. That's UFC, not MMA. A single organization taking on a sport.

 

The fight between De la Hoya and Mayorga drew 925,000 pay-per-view buys in the United States.

UFC 66 (Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz), which drew approximately 1,050,000 pay-per-view buys in the United States

 

The only records that the UFC has not broken are the all-time boxing records for individual events, which still stand at approximately 2.0 million buys for a heavyweight fight and approximately 2.2 million buys for a non-heavyweight fight.

 

A big difference is that boxing doesn't have nearly the amount of cards that are entertaining throughout the year. A lot of what we've posted has been opinion, but the UFC alone has taken over PPV buys, the numbers don't lie. I'm also not saying boxing is dying or dead, just that there is l lot bigger interest in MMA than what you're willing to give it.

 

i never denied there is ineterest in mma...its huge....like i was willing to admit before tonight...ask the average american on the street who miguel cotto is....and i bet there arent many....ask em about a top ufc guy...and im sure theyve heard the name....yet i bet none of them can even equal the bank account of cotto.....and believe me...before u replied...i was well aware these guys have endorsement deals....they still arent seeing that kinda bank...and trust me...some guy from hawaii doesnt have the kind of backing guy from mexico or puerto rico does....none of these mma guys will ever touch the kinda money felix trinidad has made in his career...im not in denial about the airtime y our mma fighters r getting....but im right about the money they are making compared to the top stars in boxing....

 

and yer talking about a de la hoya vs mayorga ppv...which is a blatant mismatch/showcase....mayorga is a street fighter/bum/glorified toughman who happened to beat vernon forrest a couple of times....lord knows how....oscar coulda sold the forbes fight on ppv and done 900k...but decided to give fans a freebee.....

 

your entire cbs card....whatever recent ufc card...could not touch tonights main event in vegas at all...in terms of drama...and pure entertainment...no matter how much the dana white hype machine talks.....and tries to diss the sport

[piratesownninjas]

i never denied there is ineterest in mma...its huge....like i was willing to admit before tonight...ask the average american on the street who miguel cotto is....and i bet there arent many....ask em about a top ufc guy...and im sure theyve heard the name....yet i bet none of them can even equal the bank account of cotto.....and believe me...before u replied...i was well aware these guys have endorsement deals....they still arent seeing that kinda bank...and trust me...some guy from hawaii doesnt have the kind of backing guy from mexico or puerto rico does....none of these mma guys will ever touch the kinda money felix trinidad has made in his career...im not in denial about the airtime y our mma fighters r getting....but im right about the money they are making compared to the top stars in boxing....

 

and yer talking about a de la hoya vs mayorga ppv...which is a blatant mismatch/showcase....mayorga is a street fighter/bum/glorified toughman who happened to beat vernon forrest a couple of times....lord knows how....oscar coulda sold the forbes fight on ppv and done 900k...but decided to give fans a freebee.....

 

your entire cbs card....whatever recent ufc card...could not touch tonights main event in vegas at all...in terms of drama...and pure entertainment...no matter how much the dana white hype machine talks.....and tries to diss the sport

I used the De La Hoya V Mayorga and Liddell/Ortiz because they were in the same year and I could find the buy rates... Ortiz/ Liddell was also a mismatch at the time, as Ortiz had two losses followed by three decisions, two of which were split. I'd also do a little more research on "some guy from Hawaii" and the backing of the entire land mass.

I never said anything about who had a bigger bank, that guy from Hawaii has said he cares little about money. He cares about fighting and that he'd do it for free if he had to. Barry Zito will make more money that Troy Polamalou, Richard Seymour, or Jason Taylor makes, that doesn't mean he's better than any of them. It just means he has more money than the other guys who already have more than enough money in their bank accounts. Elite boxers make more money than elite MMA fighters. I also thin that in large part to boxing matches being carried usually by one fight, where as plenty of MMA fights have stacked cards, like UFC 87.

And once again, you can't measure drama, but you can measure PPV buys.

Also, Dana White doesn't hate boxing. He was an amatuer fighter and loves boxing. He doesn't like what's happened to it, and the disrespect he's gotten from boxing in general. Now that he has something that is starting to put up better numbers as far as buys goes he's firing back at them... The biggest thing he says about boxing is usually when morans tell him MMA is too violent and what not. He mentions that boxing never gets lumped into the too violent catagory and they've had fighters die after fights after the repetetive hits to the head over a 12 round fight. Either way, Dana White is not UFC. Kimbo Slice is not MMA. I think Boxing and MMA are two equally great sports, I prefer one a lot more over the other and you're on the other side of the fence. That's fine, but I don't understand why you feel the need to keep on telling us about the drama and how MMA can't match it.

Edited July 27, 2008 by piratesownninjas

[wildcat2334]

man, Cote is next in line to fight Silva, and I could care less- Spider is gonna destory him. Almeida beat Cote, and deserved the W in that last fight.

 

The more I think about it- Silva needs to get to 205, he is just not going to be challenged enough at 185. Another fight with Henderson is about the only fight I would really be fired up about.

 

He carried the weight well, looked alot thicker vs Irvin- I think he could do some serious damage at LHW. I am hoping he gives his boy Machida his title shot, then comes up in class - would just line up some incredible bouts - it just seems like it ain't gonna happen

[piratesownninjas]

man, Cote is next in line to fight Silva, and I could care less- Spider is gonna destory him. Almeida beat Cote, and deserved the W in that last fight.

 

The more I think about it- Silva needs to get to 205, he is just not going to be challenged enough at 185. Another fight with Henderson is about the only fight I would really be fired up about.

 

He carried the weight well, looked alot thicker vs Irvin- I think he could do some serious damage at LHW. I am hoping he gives his boy Machida his title shot, then comes up in class - would just line up some incredible bouts - it just seems like it ain't gonna happen

Yeah, Cote isn't a just opponent, but if Hendo gets another shot at him, I think he'll win. Hendo won the first round of their match, and then trusted his hands too much and got away from his game plan. I don't know why he'd want to bang with Silva. I think if Thiago Silva drops down to 185 we could have a potential war on our hands. If Wand Silva drops down to 185 I'll bet anyone that Wand will take the title. As far as Silva going up to 205, I think it would be destruction for him. Compared to the bigger LHW's like Liddell he would be at a great disadvantage, and I'm not sure he could get in close to the big dogs at LHW to utilize his clinch... He looked great against Irvin, but Irvin isn't anything special in that division. I'm not trying to get into another war with you wildcat, I do like Anderson Silva's style, and class he brings to MMA, I don't think there is anyone short of Hendo at 185 right now that can beat him, but I think some of the LHW's could handle him.

One more thing, Cote wasn't supposed to fight Silva Okami was, but he broke his hand. He also has a legit shot at beating him, after all he has a win over him... Oh, and this guy

[wildcat2334]

There was a big discussion on sherdog about this- I think ASilva would represent just fine at 205 - evidently wallks around at 215-220 and there are very few LHW I would like over him to be honest....... Irvin is average, fine, and not the best barometer, but I dont' think the jump to 205 is that significant.

 

Liddell?? ithink Silva takes him. Silva has siad he has problems with Machida sparring. No question he would have his hands full with so many good fighters at 205 - but dayum, at the same time I think he could do some damage.

 

Wanderlei would be a b1tch, but guys like FG, Liddell - I think Silva beats em both

[piratesownninjas]

There was a big discussion on sherdog about this- I think ASilva would represent just fine at 205 - evidently wallks around at 215-220 and there are very few LHW I would like over him to be honest....... Irvin is average, fine, and not the best barometer, but I dont' think the jump to 205 is that significant.

 

Liddell?? ithink Silva takes him. Silva has siad he has problems with Machida sparring. No question he would have his hands full with so many good fighters at 205 - but dayum, at the same time I think he could do some damage.

 

Wanderlei would be a b1tch, but guys like FG, Liddell - I think Silva beats em both

No way Silva walks around at 220 and cuts to 185... Josh Koscheck, who is an All American wrestler who has grown up cutting weight is pondering moving from 170 to 155 and most think it's insane, even for someone with his weight cutting experience. Point is that to cut down nearly 40 pounds will rob you of your power, and that for sure doesn't happen to Anderson Silva at 185. I heard Dana White say he walks around between 200-205, which is more realistic. I'm not saying you're lying, but I think your sources may be embellishing just a little.

The problem with Liddell for Silva is that Liddell is a massive 205er and is a counter puncher. Liddell also has some of the heaviest hands in MMA history. Don't forget the reign that Liddell had on the toughest class in all MMA. Liddell is a horrible match up in that sense and his reach is a lot longer. Silva would struggle to get into a clinch and I don't know of anyone on the planet that really thinks he can stand and bang with Liddell.

Loyoto Machida gives everyone fits partially for the same reason that Liddell gives people fits... Crazy angles that you can't simulate in a sparring match. He's also extremely patient and will stick to his game plan. He doesn't make mistakes, and I for one think Machida would defeat Silva at 205, along with pretty much every other LHW right now, sans Wand, and a healthy Shogun Rua, but who knows if he'll ever be the same after the knee injuries.

I wouldn't doubt Forrest Griffin either, he's a massive LHW that will outwork everyone in the gym and will also stick to a game plan. Not saying anything either way, but people have been doubting Forrest and he's taken out the no.1 ranked LHW two fights in a row in Rua and Rampage. He's just the scrappy guy that can take anyone out.

But I would love to see a Wand Vs Anderson fight, or even more, a Shogun Vs Anderson Silva fight. One thing is for sure though, Spider needs some smaller LHW'ers like Wand and Rua to drop down to 185 or he'll have to move up. It's going to be interesting.

[Hugh 0ne]

Oh, cool, a boxing thread. So, what did you guys think of Cotto vs. Margarito?

[wildcat2334]

No way Silva walks around at 220 and cuts to 185... Josh Koscheck, who is an All American wrestler who has grown up cutting weight is pondering moving from 170 to 155 and most think it's insane, even for someone with his weight cutting experience. Point is that to cut down nearly 40 pounds will rob you of your power, and that for sure doesn't happen to Anderson Silva at 185. I heard Dana White say he walks around between 200-205, which is more realistic. I'm not saying you're lying, but I think your sources may be embellishing just a little.

The problem with Liddell for Silva is that Liddell is a massive 205er and is a counter puncher. Liddell also has some of the heaviest hands in MMA history. Don't forget the reign that Liddell had on the toughest class in all MMA. Liddell is a horrible match up in that sense and his reach is a lot longer. Silva would struggle to get into a clinch and I don't know of anyone on the planet that really thinks he can stand and bang with Liddell.

Loyoto Machida gives everyone fits partially for the same reason that Liddell gives people fits... Crazy angles that you can't simulate in a sparring match. He's also extremely patient and will stick to his game plan. He doesn't make mistakes, and I for one think Machida would defeat Silva at 205, along with pretty much every other LHW right now, sans Wand, and a healthy Shogun Rua, but who knows if he'll ever be the same after the knee injuries.

I wouldn't doubt Forrest Griffin either, he's a massive LHW that will outwork everyone in the gym and will also stick to a game plan. Not saying anything either way, but people have been doubting Forrest and he's taken out the no.1 ranked LHW two fights in a row in Rua and Rampage. He's just the scrappy guy that can take anyone out.

But I would love to see a Wand Vs Anderson fight, or even more, a Shogun Vs Anderson Silva fight. One thing is for sure though, Spider needs some smaller LHW'ers like Wand and Rua to drop down to 185 or he'll have to move up. It's going to be interesting.

 

I don't think it is that hard to believe AS would cut from 215-220 to 185 at all. FG, who is a 'big" LHW walks around at 235-240, according to my boy who trains at Couture's gym- and I saw an interview with him where he states that as long as he is at 220 on Monday the week of the fight he is fine to get to 205 by weight-in.

 

Listen, I think the old Chuck of 3-4 yrs ago would take AS, but I think he is on the downhill slide, and his hands have slowed - Spider is like Machida in the way he has crazy angles, and is tough as hell to get a clean shot on with his footwork and movement.

 

His striking is world-class, he just doesn't miss- LHW would be tough with all the talent, but I think he would do some serious damage, and it would be entertaining as hell