DemonKnight Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I just watched a very scary video. This redefinition of "terrorism" to include journalists and activists is alarming to say the least. Especially when you consider what the CIA and others are allowed to do to terrorists. Take a look at the Patriot Act. They can tap all of your lines of communication, they can seize your assets and they can hold you without trial indefinitely. Take a look at the new bill thats passed senate H.R. 1995. Scary excerpt: (3) HOMEGROWN TERRORISM- The term `homegrown terrorism' means the use, planned use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual born, raised, or based and operating primarily within the United States or any possession of the United States to intimidate or coerce the United States government, the civilian population of the United States, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives. Thats a bit of a loose definition if you ask me. Combine this with the arrests of reporters and demonstrators at the GOP national convention . And the fact that the Army's 3rd Infantry 1'st BCT is now deployed on American soil and who "may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control" . This is getting pretty close to an absolutely closed society. And I am starting to fear our ability to chose a new president next month. Am I the only one feeling the noose tightening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I do not like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Imagine if this was in place when England owned the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H8tank Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 About three hours into the standoff, about 300 protesters sat down on a major thoroughfare and police closed the four-lane boulevard. Yeah, just sit down and close a street, no big deal. Those reporters are lucky, in Iraq we just shoot them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) And you're just getting clued into all this now? We as a people have slowly but surely rolling over as the gov't has systematically stripped us of our rights and our ability to defend ourselves from a repressive gov't. Amerika Uber Alles. Edited October 6, 2008 by Kid Cid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 And you're just getting clued into all this now? We as a people have slowly but surely rolling over as the gov't has systematically stripped us of our rights and our ability to defend ourselves from a repressive gov't. Amerika Uber Alles. Some don't notice it until it gets close to them. At least they can't take the guns. Whether you own them or not their existence helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 How much liberty is enough ? Do we have enough liberty to be able to burn an American flag on American soil and face no punishment all in the name of freedom? Do we have enough Liberty & Freedom to force schools not allow for the Pledge or Allegiance or school prayer ? Do we have enough Liberty and Freedom to have so called artists create sculptures and paintings desecrating Religous items , Religous beliefs that others hold true and dear ? Do we have enough Liberty that we are not allowed to say Merry Christmas / Chanukah or have Christmas decorations / Chanukah items put up in front of our homes or even public squares ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 How much liberty is enough ? Do we have enough liberty to be able to burn an American flag on American soil and face no punishment all in the name of freedom? Do we have enough Liberty & Freedom to force schools not allow for the Pledge or Allegiance or school prayer ? Do we have enough Liberty and Freedom to have so called artists create sculptures and paintings desecrating Religous items , Religous beliefs that others hold true and dear ? Do we have enough Liberty that we are not allowed to say Merry Christmas / Chanukah or have Christmas decorations / Chanukah items put up in front of our homes or even public squares ? Oh, you're serious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 And you're just getting clued into all this now? We as a people have slowly but surely rolling over as the gov't has systematically stripped us of our rights and our ability to defend ourselves from a repressive gov't. Amerika Uber Alles. +1 DK, this is about five years too late. And check out some of the new powers the IRS and other federalies got in the "bailout" bill that just passed. Lincoln started this by suspending habeus corpus and punishing "sedition", and it just keeps getting worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 How much liberty is enough ? Do we have enough liberty to be able to burn an American flag on American soil and face no punishment all in the name of freedom? Do we have enough Liberty & Freedom to force schools not allow for the Pledge or Allegiance or school prayer ? Do we have enough Liberty and Freedom to have so called artists create sculptures and paintings desecrating Religous items , Religous beliefs that others hold true and dear ? Do we have enough Liberty that we are not allowed to say Merry Christmas / Chanukah or have Christmas decorations / Chanukah items put up in front of our homes or even public squares ? I should have the right to speak my mind on any topic, be it vocally or through artistic expression. Similiarly, you should have every right to call me a a fraked up troll living under a toadstool for not agreeing with what I said. I should have the right to destroy or desicrate any piece of property that I have bought and paid for or hava otherwise legally come into my posession. Similiarly, you should have every right to speak out against any destruction or desecration percieved by you. Also, you should not have the right to stop me from destroying or desecrating my own personal property. I should NOT have the right to extend this destruction or desecration to property that is not my own. Similarly, you should be able to stop me from destroying or desecrating property that is not mine. I should have the right to speak out against the governement, its actions and its policies. I should also have the right to form organizations whose goal is to change said actions and policies through legal means. Others, both within and external to the government, should have the right to speak out against my disagreement. People, both within and external to the governement should NOT have the right to abridge the above rights. Conceptually, this is the corenerstone of our Bill of Rights. Do you think we still have the liberty to do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I don't know why anyone is concerned. I think we all know that the government never has and never will abuse its power. They only have our best interests at heart. If we don't give away some of our freedoms, the terrorists have already won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonKnight Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 +1 DK, this is about five years too late. And check out some of the new powers the IRS and other federalies got in the "bailout" bill that just passed. Lincoln started this by suspending habeus corpus and punishing "sedition", and it just keeps getting worse. And you consistently stand up for the people that have done this? Mind boggling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonKnight Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 How much liberty is enough ? I just want to maintain the freedoms laid out in our Constitution by the Founding Fathers. Freedoms that Americans have enjoyed throughout the last 200 years until this trumped up "war on terror/drugs". Do we have enough liberty to be able to burn an American flag on American soil and face no punishment all in the name of freedom? I dont see why not. I wouldn't do it but I wouldn't want to impinge on someone else'e right to do so if they please. Its a slippery slope. Whats next, I cant write an article condemning the Glorious US and A? Do we have enough Liberty & Freedom to force schools not allow for the Pledge or Allegiance or school prayer ? This is a tough one. I grew up saying the Pledge with a hand over my heart. I have never been god fearing and and the "under god" part never bothered me. Then again, it does seem a little like fascist child indoctrination. I just don't know on this one. School prayer on the other hand is an absolutely ridiculous notion outside of parochial schools. Do we have enough Liberty and Freedom to have so called artists create sculptures and paintings desecrating Religous items , Religous beliefs that others hold true and dear ? By all means, yes. Chocolate Jesus anyone? Do we have enough Liberty that we are not allowed to say Merry Christmas / Chanukah or have Christmas decorations / Chanukah items put up in front of our homes or even public squares ? I don't think anyones said you cant wish anyone a "Merry Whatever" whenever you please. The ones not using these terms are companies who don't want to alienate certain segments of the population by throwing religious symbols all over their product. I understand completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 And you consistently stand up for the people that have done this? Mind boggling. Uh, I don't know what you're smoking, but the last time I didn't vote libertarian for president was shrub's daddy. I don't support either main party. You might want to check around a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Uh, I don't know what you're smoking, but the last time I didn't vote libertarian for president was shrub's daddy. I don't support either main party. You might want to check around a little. Don't worrk about him - I'm sure he's just disappointed that bill was passed by his own democratic senate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I should have the right to speak my mind on any topic, be it vocally or through artistic expression. Similiarly, you should have every right to call me a a fraked up troll living under a toadstool for not agreeing with what I said. I should have the right to destroy or desicrate any piece of property that I have bought and paid for or hava otherwise legally come into my posession. Similiarly, you should have every right to speak out against any destruction or desecration percieved by you. Also, you should not have the right to stop me from destroying or desecrating my own personal property. I should NOT have the right to extend this destruction or desecration to property that is not my own. Similarly, you should be able to stop me from destroying or desecrating property that is not mine. I should have the right to speak out against the governement, its actions and its policies. I should also have the right to form organizations whose goal is to change said actions and policies through legal means. Others, both within and external to the government, should have the right to speak out against my disagreement. People, both within and external to the governement should NOT have the right to abridge the above rights. Conceptually, this is the corenerstone of our Bill of Rights. Do you think we still have the liberty to do this? How much liberty is enough ? I just want to maintain the freedoms laid out in our Constitution by the Founding Fathers. Freedoms that Americans have enjoyed throughout the last 200 years until this trumped up "war on terror/drugs". Do we have enough liberty to be able to burn an American flag on American soil and face no punishment all in the name of freedom? I dont see why not. I wouldn't do it but I wouldn't want to impinge on someone else'e right to do so if they please. Its a slippery slope. Whats next, I cant write an article condemning the Glorious US and A? Do we have enough Liberty & Freedom to force schools not allow for the Pledge or Allegiance or school prayer ? This is a tough one. I grew up saying the Pledge with a hand over my heart. I have never been god fearing and and the "under god" part never bothered me. Then again, it does seem a little like fascist child indoctrination. I just don't know on this one. School prayer on the other hand is an absolutely ridiculous notion outside of parochial schools. Do we have enough Liberty and Freedom to have so called artists create sculptures and paintings desecrating Religous items , Religous beliefs that others hold true and dear ? By all means, yes. Chocolate Jesus anyone? Do we have enough Liberty that we are not allowed to say Merry Christmas / Chanukah or have Christmas decorations / Chanukah items put up in front of our homes or even public squares ? I don't think anyones said you cant wish anyone a "Merry Whatever" whenever you please. The ones not using these terms are companies who don't want to alienate certain segments of the population by throwing religious symbols all over their product. I understand completely. Diagree when Freedom or so called Liberties , cross the line of morality and what is right Thats ok if we disagree as we are free to do so i guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Oh, you're serious... You are quietly becoming a horse's ass ...did i say quietly , meant quickly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonKnight Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 Uh, I don't know what you're smoking, but the last time I didn't vote libertarian for president was shrub's daddy. I don't support either main party. You might want to check around a little. I never implied you voted for anyone. I'm merely pointing out that you jump on any and every liberal viewpoint thrown out on these boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Diagree when Freedom or so called Liberties , cross the line of morality and what is right Thats ok if we disagree as we are free to do so i guess Who determines what is moral and what is immoral? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonKnight Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 Diagree when Freedom or so called Liberties , cross the line of morality and what is right Thats ok if we disagree as we are free to do so i guess You're moralities and ideas of what are right or wrong probably differ from mine. And that's okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Diagree when Freedom or so called Liberties , cross the line of morality and what is right Thats ok if we disagree as we are free to do so i guess Yes, but you did not answer my question, Do we still have the liberties which would allow us to exercise the rights I mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Who determines what is moral and what is immoral? Not the Bill of Rights , thats for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Yes, but you did not answer my question, Do we still have the liberties which would allow us to exercise the rights I mentioned? Yes we apparently have them but thats what got me to write what i did when i originally stated that we may have so called too much liberty when we are apparently allowed to do things that are morally incorrect The burning of the flag always gets me ...can we burn a US flag in the US ? yes were Free to do so ...is it right & morally correct ? no i clearly dont believe so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I never implied you voted for anyone. I'm merely pointing out that you jump on any and every liberal viewpoint thrown out on these boards. Define liberal? If you mean statist, then absolutely I do, proudly. But I'm also pro-choice, couldn't give a sh!t about ghey marriage and think drugs should be legalized. I think shrub's patriot act is a statist's wet dreams. Harm none - do as ye will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Yes we apparently have them but thats what got me to write what i did when i originally stated that we may have so called too much liberty when we are apparently allowed to do things that are morally incorrect The burning of the flag always gets me ...can we burn a US flag in the US ? yes were Free to do so ...is it right & morally correct ? no i clearly dont believe so First, I would say that morals have nothing to do with burning a flag. I may be wrong but I think that falls into the category of ethics. Second, you can not have too much liberty. Without the freedom to question society (on any level) we're nothing more than a slave to that society. Without the freedom to act in a lawful manner to change society the chains of that slavery have been firmly placed about our hands and feet. Our founding fathers knew this however the poeple today seem to have forgottten this very important point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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