Question for the lawyers

[whomper]

My Father in law is looking to take his house out of his name and put it in the name of his children. He is in good health thank God and this question is purely hypotheitcal that he wanted me to find out but he wanted to know. If he had to go into a nursing home how long does the house have to be out of his name before the govt could use his house to pay for the Nursing home ? My mother in law passed away about 5 weeks ago . We wish my FIL wasnt asking these types of questions but his mind has been racing since she passed. Again. Thank God he is totally fine right now. TIA.

[Rebellab]

Not a lawyer, but I believe social services has a five year look back for Medicare/Medicaid. This is from the time you apply not from the time you go into a nursing home.

[ts]

I think the number of years may vary by state ... 3 - 5 years is fairly common as I recall.

[rocknrobn26]

We went thru this w/ my FIL. Believe me, the social services in the state of Illinois are blood suckers. He had no house, some insurance, annuities, etc.. His wife passed about 4 years prior, so we went thru a spend down. Once we were getting close to $2000 in assets, they took out their magnifying glass and wanted all of his financial records for the past 3 years. Initially they said they were only interested in deposits and checks for amounts >$100. Then they started questioning $2.00 deposits, a $20 B'day gift to my daughter (prior to the spend down), they lost his records and we had to copy them (about 2" worth of documents), and we had to have several sit downs explaining what the $2 deposit was for and more. Each session was over an hour long, not to mention countless phone calls. He died the month before the State was picking up his full payment. 3 months after he died, they wanted $15,000 to pay something back that was supposedly given to him, but they couldn't document it! Mind he had $1500 left, but they still wanted it. I blew sky high!!! I went on a 15 minute diatribe! At the end of it, there was a moment of silence on their end. She finally said, "Boy we did put you thru the wringer, didn't we??. I concurred, and she said "OK, I'm closing this case. Thank you for your time.". We used the money to buy our daughter a laptop, which she needed badly at the time, as a remembrance, so to speak.

I mention all this becaue if the social service finds anything they considered misappropriation, they will make you crawl thru their hell! I was close to getting a lawyer, but in the end I didn't need one.

Good luck, Whomp!

[wiegie]

Edited so that my Megan Foxyness is somewhat concealed:

 

So, basically your father-in-law wants to know how he can take wealth from the rest of the taxpayers in the state and then give it to his children.

 

Edited November 1, 2008 by wiegie

[whomper]

Edited so that my Megan Foxyness is somewhat concealed:

 

So, basically your father-in-law wants to know how he can take wealth from the rest of the taxpayers in the state and then give it to his children.

 

 

My FIL worked 5 jobs when my wife was a kid. My wife said they used to only see him on weekends but he did so because he wanted my MIL to stay home with their children. My MIL battled cancer for the past year. They only had medicare. They didnt get secondary insurance because a pre existing condition would have made their payments ridiculous for the past 15 years. My FIL , although they had medicare, had to pay out of pocket over 100, 000 dollars with my MILs battle with cancer. Many many people would have said F that. Let them come after me. Not this guy. He sat and wrote Giant checks and paid these people as the bills came in because thats the kind of guy he is. The system sucked the cash out of a hard working dude and he is looking down the road as far as doing what any parent wants to do and thats take care of your children with your hard earned money .

[wiegie]

My FIL worked 5 jobs when my wife was a kid. My wife said they used to only see him on weekends but he did so because he wanted my MIL to stay home with their children. My MIL battled cancer for the past year. They only had medicare. They didnt get secondary insurance because a pre existing condition would have made their payments ridiculous for the past 15 years. My FIL , although they had medicare, had to pay out of pocket over 100, 000 dollars with my MILs battle with cancer. Many many people would have said F that. Let them come after me. Not this guy. He sat and wrote Giant checks and paid these people as the bills came in because thats the kind of guy he is. The system sucked the cash out of a hard working dude and he is looking down the road as far as doing what any parent wants to do and thats take care of your children with your hard earned money .

 

rationalize it all you want, but it's still transfering taxpayers' money to his children

 

Do his offspring think this is a fair thing to do?

 

[whomper]

rationalize it all you want, but it's still transfering taxpayers' money to his children

 

Do his offspring think this is a fair thing to do?

 

 

 

No need for the spoilers wiegie. His Kids dont want him to do it. They feel he is just acting out because he is hurting because he lost his wife.

[wiegie]

No need for the spoilers wiegie. His Kids dont want him to do it. They feel he is just acting out because he is hurting because he lost his wife.

I put the spoilers there because after I made my first post I realized how Megan Foxy it was, but then I thought it might be even Megan Foxier if I just deleted it and tried to act like it never happened. My second post was just a continuation of my initial Megan Foxyness. I will stop being Megan Foxy.

[rocknrobn26]

rationalize it all you want, but it's still transfering taxpayers' money to his children

 

Do his offspring think this is a fair thing to do?

 

 

I don't see it that way. The gubment has a lot of trip wires set up to prevent this. I see nothing wrong w/ trying to minimize the gub's strangle hold on one's assets. If one wants to put all his/her assets into the hands of his loved ones instead of the having the State take it all, I say go for it, but be careful! If the person dies within 3-5 years, the gubment will get it anyway and this person will go thru hell!. If he lives longer than that.....What's the harm? The rich have been hiding assets forever.

Sorry wiegie.....go for it whomp.....but understand the trip wires and plan accordingly.

 

Edit for:

I wish I could have convinced my inlaws to put all their assets w/ me back when. But it was not my parents, so I left it alone.

Did I want to get "Rich" on their assets? NO!!!!! I just wanted to make sure that when/if they went into a nursing home that we'd have some $$$ to get them the things that the "STATE" does not provide w/o going into our savings! Clothes, personal items, a TV if the the old one puked, etc.. IF we did get a windfall I would have donated it to a charity in his name. I didn't want his $$$, I just wanted to be able to provide for him so that he could keep some self respect!

Am I emotional about ths? You bet your ass! My FIL worked ~55 years! He deserved to live out a dignified life...ON HIS OWN, w/o sucking off his child!!!

I have to quit. This is getting to me.

Edited November 1, 2008 by rocknrobn26

[whomper]

I put the spoilers there because after I made my first post I realized how Megan Foxy it was, but then I thought it might be even Megan Foxier if I just deleted it and tried to act like it never happened. My second post was just a continuation of my initial Megan Foxyness. I will stop being Megan Foxy.

 

 

Its all good. You are entitled to your opinion. I just wanted to tell you a little about the man in question.

[wiegie]

I don't see it that way. The gubment has a lot of trip wires set up to prevent this. I see nothing wrong w/ trying to minimize the gub's strangle hold on one's assets. If one wants to put all his/her assets into the hands of his loved ones instead of the having the State take it all, I say go for it, but be careful! If the person dies within 3-5 years, the gubment will get it anyway and this person will go thru hell!. If he lives longer than that.....What's the harm? The rich have been hiding assets forever.

Sorry wiegie.....go for it whomp.....but understand the trip wires and plan accordingly.

 

Edit for:

I wish I could have convinced my inlaws to put all their assets w/ me back when. But it was not my parents, so I left it alone.

Did I want to get "Rich" on their assets? NO!!!!! I just wanted to make sure that when/if they went into a nursing home that we'd have some $$$ to get them the things that the "STATE" does not provide w/o going into our savings! Clothes, personal items, a TV if the the old one puked, etc.. IF we did get a windfall I would have donated it to a charity in his name. I didn't want his $$$, I just wanted to be able to provide for him so that he could keep some self respect!

Am I emotional about ths? You bet your ass! My FIL worked ~55 years! He deserved to live out a dignified life...ON HIS OWN, w/o sucking off his child!!!

I have to quit. This is getting to me.

fwiw, we are going through this exact same situation with my grandma right now. She has dementia and is nursing home and has run out of assets. (She's in the state of Illinois, so RR has described already what my dad has been going through.) (And for good measure, I suppose I am subject to the criticism that I am not doing enough to take care of my grandma and hence am making the rest of the taxpayers pay for her care.)

[TheShiznit]

Whomp...is your FIL in New York state....if so it is a five year on all property/cash transfers and irrevocable trust creations. In Illinois, we have not officially adopted the DRA rules, so therefore it is still 3 years and 5 respectively.

 

You can PM me about this if you want...I work closely with an elder law attorney and 50% of my professional work is with her preserving estates for medicaid qualifiers.

 

But my suggest is to go to this website....NAELA.com....it stands for National Association of Elder Law Attorneys. Find someone in your area....as a member, it generally means they are experts on medicaid law in their respective state.

 

Anyway, good luck and hope the link helps. And believe me...don't use an attorney not on this list....this is a specialty....much like neurosurgery...oncologists don't perform neurosurgery for a reason....so litigators or general practice attorneys don't have the connections nor the knowledge base to make this transfer pass muster under prevailing medicaid law.

[whomper]

Whomp...is your FIL in New York state....if so it is a five year on all property/cash transfers and irrevocable trust creations. In Illinois, we have not officially adopted the DRA rules, so therefore it is still 3 years and 5 respectively.

 

You can PM me about this if you want...I work closely with an elder law attorney and 50% of my professional work is with her preserving estates for medicaid qualifiers.

 

But my suggest is to go to this website....NAELA.com....it stands for National Association of Elder Law Attorneys. Find someone in your area....as a member, it generally means they are experts on medicaid law in their respective state.

 

Anyway, good luck and hope the link helps. And believe me...don't use an attorney not on this list....this is a specialty....much like neurosurgery...oncologists don't perform neurosurgery for a reason....so litigators or general practice attorneys don't have the connections nor the knowledge base to make this transfer pass muster under prevailing medicaid law.

 

 

Thanks Shiz. I appreciate it. He is actually in NJ. is that 5 years as well ?

[Rebellab]

Whomper, one thing that you should do regardless of how this turns out, is to go to a funeral home and set up a pre-arranged/pre-funded funeral. When you do this make sure that the funds are protected from Title 19. Irrevocable funeral trust or specific funeral insurance. Make sure it is protected is the main thing and then ask if you can move the account to another funeral home if he moves, or you get pissed off at the funeral home.

[rocknrobn26]

Whomper, one thing that you should do regardless of how this turns out, is to go to a funeral home and set up a pre-arranged/pre-funded funeral. When you do this make sure that the funds are protected from Title 19. Irrevocable funeral trust or specific funeral insurance. Make sure it is protected is the main thing and then ask if you can move the account to another funeral home if he moves, or you get pissed off at the funeral home.

 

Good advice. The state of Illinois allowed us to do that even during the spend down. Also, if/when he is in the nursing home, seek advice from them. They gave us a lot of help!

[TheShiznit]

Thanks Shiz. I appreciate it. He is actually in NJ. is that 5 years as well ?

 

When it comes to insurance law and what not...they are similiar...it makes sense they would be the same on this. But, if you contact one of those attorneys, they will tell what you can and cannot do. Land trusts are options that avoid probate, but the Elder Law Attorney has to make sure it would pass the medicaid test in NJ. For instance, in the state of Illinois, there is a 3 year look back on cash and property transfers...but...if a perfectly healthy person started a gifting program with an attorney and CPA when they were healthy....and gifted away 3 million in 2 years lets say....and then got into a car accident and needed full time care....the state of illinois medicaid people would usually not count such gifting programs as cash transfers. They are going after the folks who get sick and then try to get out of paying for it. Legit estate planning is generally excluded here in Illinois....but sometimes it isn't...you should really consult someone in NJ from that website.

 

Good Luck.