So, when's this crap going to end?

[detlef]

And when are good and sane people going to stop looking to pedophiles for spiritual guidance?

 

Why do you have to lend legitimacy to something as truly corrupt as the church in order to live a good life?

 

Is the faith in your own morals and direction so lacking that you have to have associate with such truly horrible people as this in order to make sure you're doing the right thing?

[Jackass]

A good start would be to get rid of the celibacy requirement for priests. Not that it would be a cure-all but it would help.

[millerx]

A good start would be to get rid of the celibacy requirement for priests. Not that it would be a cure-all but it would help.

A better start would be to hold those accountable, upon proven guilt, to not be secured a "pass" simply because he is given a title. If he were some other trusted authority, would society be so forgiving... a teacher, a cop, a politician... all would be rejected by their establishment and society at large. But because some frickin' religious person in a funny hat says it's alright, the followers go along with it? Unbelievable.

[Perchoutofwater]

All pedophiles should be punished to the full extent of the law as should anyone who hides them or gives them access to children once it is know they are pedophiles.

[buddahj]

All pedophiles should be punished to the full extent of the law as should anyone who hides them or gives them access to children once it is know they are pedophiles.

+1

[detlef]

All pedophiles should be punished to the full extent of the law as should anyone who hides them or gives them access to children once it is know they are pedophiles.

 

 

+1

So, when do we get to actually ask the Pope some rather difficult questions?

 

Here's the thing, these guys are just politicians. As corruptible and ambitious. Only, unlike politicians implying that they're crooked as hell is completely taboo. If Perch wants to start in on Obama or I want to start in on all the f-ups in the GOP, an argument will ensue, but it's not like either is completely off-limits. However guys will act like you just took a crap on their church if you point this out. In reality, you're just the one telling them that their church just took a crap on them.

 

I am certain that there are no shortage of catholic priests who are completely upstanding and great. Thing is, just like public servants, they're destined to stay on the lower rungs because they're not willing to play the game and not rock the boat. The current Pope, on the other hand, either isn't bothered by the fact that he's got priests working under him who fondle little boys (I'm guessing this isn't true) or was forced to hold his nose and look the other way if he wanted to be Pope because some of these pedophiles had friends in high places (that would be my guess). Thing is, neither is remotely acceptable, especially for someone who basically governs morality. However, what appears to be very unlikely is that he was completely unaware of anything wrong going on and/or did everything in his power to punish those who did these things. That is entirely unforgivable and paints the entire Catholic Church in a grotesque light.

[Perchoutofwater]

This is something I've never understood about the Catholic Church. It would seem to be in their best interest to immediately turn over these pedophiles to the authorities. As det said, there is no doubt there are some very good Catholic priests out there that do a lot of good in this world, but by ignoring these pedophiles and in instances protecting and harboring them the Church stains the reputation of all priests and places distrust between not only parishioners and their priests, but between the church and the general public, which would IMO make it that much harder to find converts or for that matter keep the parishioners they have.

[Ursa Majoris]

there is no doubt there are some very good Catholic priests out there that do a lot of good in this world, but by ignoring these pedophiles and in instances protecting and harboring them the Church stains the reputation of all priests and places distrust between not only parishioners and their priests, but between the church and the general public

This. Although I'm no fan of organized religion, it is beyond dispute that most priests are selfless, good men doing their best for the poor, the sick and all the rest. Why these few perverts have been allowed to damage the reputation of the good men is beyond me.

 

I guess the one thing that this clearly demonstrates again is that a cover-up almost never works out in your favor.

[Azazello1313]

I am certain that there are no shortage of catholic priests who are completely upstanding and great. Thing is, just like public servants, they're destined to stay on the lower rungs because they're not willing to play the game and not rock the boat.

 

well, I don't really buy that. but I do agree that there seems to be a counterproductive institutional stance toward this whole situation. they seem to just want to brush it under the rug, keep it under wraps, hope it will just go away so they can deal with it "in-house". well fellas, that cat done got out of the bag a long time ago. those pulling the strings don't seem to be doing their church any favors.

[detlef]

This. Although I'm no fan of organized religion, it is beyond dispute that most priests are selfless, good men doing their best for the poor, the sick and all the rest. Why these few perverts have been allowed to damage the reputation of the good men is beyond me.

 

I guess the one thing that this clearly demonstrates again is that a cover-up almost never works out in your favor.

And yet everyone always tries it. Why, for instance, does it always take the opposition party to out some d-bag senator? You'd think either the GOP or Dems would want to immediately distance themselves from the bad seeds as soon as they realize they are so. But they don't. It's as if they're deathly afraid of their party looking worse for the inclusion of these guys. Which, of course, would be a great tactic if nobody ever found out, but we do.

 

Of course, in the case of politicians you could write this off to the fact that none of these guys are totally clean so they're afraid to rock the boat lest they get their dirty linens aired.

 

Who knows, maybe the pope has a skeleton or two he'd rather not let out. Not implying that it would be anything of the magnitude of pedophilia, mind you.

[Square]

This. Although I'm no fan of organized religion, it is beyond dispute that most priests are selfless, good men doing their best for the poor, the sick and all the rest. Why these few perverts have been allowed to damage the reputation of the good men is beyond me.

I agree that most are good people trying to do their best in difficult situations. My guess on why is simple. Hubris. I don't think it's a stretch to think that some Men of god believe that they are capable than more than they are. That along with ignorance on how pedophiles actually work (brain chemistry, recidivism). It's similar to how modern experts treat drug addiction as a disease (instead of the way they did it back in the day). I'd guess that the church truly thought they could "fix" some of these people or salvage the good in them.

 

ETA: I have a few priests in my extended family and after a few drinks the one I know best said he would throw one of their own to the cops if they had done anything with the children. Granted he is only in his 30s so maybe he is "new school" for this problem in the Catholic church.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Square

[detlef]

well, I don't really buy that. but I do agree that there seems to be a counterproductive institutional stance toward this whole situation. they seem to just want to brush it under the rug, keep it under wraps, hope it will just go away so they can deal with it "in-house". well fellas, that cat done got out of the bag a long time ago. those pulling the strings don't seem to be doing their church any favors.

I'm not sure how you can agree with one but not the other. If there's an institutional stance to shut up and hope it all goes away, don't you think it would hinder someone's chances of moving up the ranks if he insisted upon bringing this stuff to light? In much the same way, I would imagine, if a Jr. Congressman trying to clean up all the corruption in DC would get crapped on and sent back to Iowa because he'd be busting up everyone's little gigs.

[Azazello1313]

the first instinct is to circle the wagons. it's not really that mysterious or sinister, really. and in the case of the priests, I think these guys genuinely want to forgive and to believe that their "brothers" can be treated and put this behind them and still lead good lives devoted to God. in fact, their religion mandates they have this attitude. which is great, but what they've done a really poor job of is realizing the potential of that attitude to harm others. there are plenty of good things a truly repentant sinner can do with their lives, putting them back in any pastoral role whatsoever is simply reckless, to put it as charitably as I can.

[matt770]

It's really ridiculous that Catholic clergy are treated like quasi-deities. The idea of a healthy man having sexual desires is simply denied, because deities don't indulge in pleasures of the flesh. Not only does the policy attract self-loathing gays and pedophiles who hope the priesthood will somehow cure them, it wrecks the lives of otherwise normal, healthy, heterosexual priests who got into it with an honest desire to serve. There is no counseling offered to assist with the inevitable problems that arise. The result is scandal after scandal, not only involving gay sex and child molesting, but straight affairs too, and a shortage of new priests coming in.

 

If they were to acknowledge the problem on a grand scale and clean house, they would lose a lot of priests and probably have to close churches. They would also have to admit that the celibacy policy has failed, and they aren't going to do that.

[yo mama]

You don't have belong to any church to have a spiritual relationship with God, Jesus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. One of the greatest tricks ever played was organized religion interjecting itself as a necessary party between faith and the faithful. Then they pull crap like this and it makes you wonder why anyone would look to the Catholic church for guidance on morality.

[Azazello1313]

I'm not sure how you can agree with one but not the other. If there's an institutional stance to shut up and hope it all goes away, don't you think it would hinder someone's chances of moving up the ranks if he insisted upon bringing this stuff to light?

 

you're shifting your argument. you originally said, "I am certain that there are no shortage of catholic priests who are completely upstanding and great. Thing is, just like public servants, they're destined to stay on the lower rungs." there is an area between being complicit in a coverup, and being some sort of crusader to expose and purge all the bad priests. there are tons of priests who have absolutely no say in the matter of how the church deals with these scandals, and there is nothing to prevent them from being "completely upstanding and great". I am sure the majority of them would fit that description.

[Ursa Majoris]

It's really ridiculous that Catholic clergy are treated like quasi-deities. The idea of a healthy man having sexual desires is simply denied, because deities don't indulge in pleasures of the flesh. Not only does the policy attract self-loathing gays and pedophiles who hope the priesthood will somehow cure them, it wrecks the lives of otherwise normal, healthy, heterosexual priests who got into it with an honest desire to serve. There is no counseling offered to assist with the inevitable problems that arise. The result is scandal after scandal, not only involving gay sex and child molesting, but straight affairs too, and a shortage of new priests coming in.

 

If they were to acknowledge the problem on a grand scale and clean house, they would lose a lot of priests and probably have to close churches. They would also have to admit that the celibacy policy has failed, and they aren't going to do that.

 

I do agree that celibacy is long past it's sell-by date and should be removed. I also think it's ludicrous to expect a celibate man to act as a counsellor for men and women on marriage. Kinda like a non-gambler offering advice on Vegas sports books.

 

You don't have belong to any church to have a spiritual relationship with God, Jesus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. One of the greatest tricks ever played was organized religion interjecting itself as a necessary party between faith and the faithful. Then they pull crap like this and it makes you wonder why anyone would look to the Catholic church for guidance on morality.

 

I agree with this. An unnecessary hierarchy.

[Azazello1313]

You don't have belong to any church to have a spiritual relationship with God, Jesus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

sort of agree.

 

One of the greatest tricks ever played was organized religion interjecting itself as a necessary party between faith and the faithful.

 

yeah, mostly agree here. but the thing you have to keep in mind, there is a huge difference between a massive international "official" church organization, and the desire of individuals to seek communion and community as part of a body of faith. the spiritual life is fundamentally one of connection, not of isolation.

[detlef]

you're shifting your argument. you originally said, "I am certain that there are no shortage of catholic priests who are completely upstanding and great. Thing is, just like public servants, they're destined to stay on the lower rungs." there is an area between being complicit in a coverup, and being some sort of crusader to expose and purge all the bad priests. there are tons of priests who have absolutely no say in the matter of how the church deals with these scandals, and there is nothing to prevent them from being "completely upstanding and great". I am sure the majority of them would fit that description.

Well, for starters. If you have ascended to a level of any influence at all within the church and aren't making a big stink about this whole mess, then I would be hesitant to call you "upstanding and great" because this is reaching unparalleled levels in terms of horrible scandals. So, one would have a hard time drawing any conclusion other than the fact that those who care enough about this and are willing to do the right thing are somehow prevented from achieving a level within the church that allows them to do so.

[yo mama]

yeah, mostly agree here. but the thing you have to keep in mind, there is a huge difference between a massive international "official" church organization, and the desire of individuals to seek communion and community as part of a body of faith. the spiritual life is fundamentally one of connection, not of isolation.

Yeah, I know. One of the best things about church is that it brings together the community. But the idea that I'm not a "good christian" unless I tender unquestioning loyalty, attendance, and monetary support to the church itself is offensive.

 

I often wonder what percentage of my tithe goes to abuse settlement payments. I'm reminded of Matthew 21:12-13: "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

 

If that was how Jesus reacted to mere commerce taking place in the house of the Lord, I wonder "what would Jesus do" with regard to clergy who have abused children, and those who offer such criminals shelter and protection within the house of God?

Edited March 15, 2010 by yo mama

[dmarc117]

we need to end cults

[detlef]

we need to end cults

werd

[millerx]

we need to end cults

 

 

werd

even the ones with millions of people in them.

[dmarc117]

even the ones with millions of people in them.

 

 

the more the people, the more they need to be canned.

[detlef]

the more the people, the more they need to be canned.

Actually, on second thought, we don't need to end them so much as we should stop having to tip toe around them. Everyone should be free to believe and associate with any group who shares their beliefs. However, those who don't belong to a religion need to start making some noise about it and demanding that religious beliefs take a smaller role in public policy. There is no shortage of places where religious beliefs and obvious laws happen to overlap and that shouldn't bother anyone. However, that should never be construed as justification for weaving more religious ideals into law. Especially as long as prominent members of these vary same religions fail to uphold a moral code that any good person would agree is absolute. Like, for instance, not molesting children or turning a blind eye to the same.

 

I mentioned this when the whole flap about the Kay Hagen "Godless" ad that Elizabeth Dole ran. The issue was not that Dole was trying to make the campaign about god, but that she'd unfairly accused Hagen of being godless. That is really an outrage because it absolutely shouldn't matter to anyone who gives two poops about this country whether or not Hagen believes in god. What they should be asking themselves is whether or not she would be effective in determining policy for our government. Yet, the Hagen camp failed to do the right thing and point this out. Rather they glossed over the insignificant fact that they were not running for a church position and showed that she was, in fact, full of god.

 

One has to believe that candidates don't bother campaigning to those of us who aren't religious. Perhaps it's because we get enough credit for caring more about where they stand on issues rather than what church they go to. Perhaps it's because we've resigned ourselves to realizing that the only viable candidates for any major office are likely to be Christians so it's not like it matters. And, honestly, I don't mind so much as long as they're not telling me that Jesus told them to bomb someone or bending over backwards to pander to any religious ideology.