1st round upset shocker

[Jackass]

If there are more "bonus" shots being taken in a game than "regular" shots, maybe the "bonus" line should be extended SLIGHTLY.

 

I'm not really arguing with you, just a friendly debate maybe. And i do agree more or less with this, so it looks like we're mostly on the same page anyway.

[detlef]

When you have a team that has a lot of white guys you get a different style of basketball. It is more the style of what basketball used to be. You get hard tough stifling defense and offense that takes time off the clock and looks for a good open shot. The other style tends to be be run and gun and basically is just athleticism as opposed to what I call "real basketball".

 

One of the reasons I don't watch NBA anymore - there is no defense and is all about trying to get on Sportscenter.

I wonder if you actually even watch the games. For starters, the white guy calling the plays for KU was out-coached by the white guy calling the plays for N. Iowa. That was the biggest story of that game. N Iowa simply did a better job of dictating the pace of the game. However, these "run and gun" teams typically employ a stifling D as the precursor to that style. Very, very few teams can successfully run off made baskets (last year's UNC Heels being a notable example). But uptempo play is no less fundamentally sound than grinding it out. It's just different.

 

KU's best scorer had a crappy night against a team that was among the sexy picks to make some noise in the tourney. Plenty of rather innocent reasons besides "real basketball" triumphing over "ghetto boys".

[Gopher]

They did extend it 2 years ago.

I know... by a foot. Not enough to make much of a difference, in my opinion. The top of the key is 19' 9", or 19.75 feet, from the center of the basket. The NCAA recently extended the men's line to 20.75 feet, an increase of one foot. The NBA line is 23.75 feet (three feet longer than what the NCAA line is now), except on the baseline, where the NBA line decreases to 22 feet.

 

I would like to see the NCAA adopt the NBA line, or at least something close. To keep it simple, adopting the NBA line as it is would make more sense, if they were to change it at all.

[detlef]

Actually Wake was a tremendous slouch.

Yes they were. Especially down the stretch. If the field in general wasn't so weak, I'd be wondering how they even made the tourney. As it was, they shouldn't have been any better than an 11 seed. They failed to win 20 games and lost to a lot of average teams down the stretch.

[Gopher]

I wonder if you actually even watch the games. For starters, the white guy calling the plays for KU was out-coached by the white guy calling the plays for N. Iowa. That was the biggest story of that game. N Iowa simply did a better job of dictating the pace of the game. However, these "run and gun" teams typically employ a stifling D as the precursor to that style. Very, very few teams can successfully run off made baskets (last year's UNC Heels being a notable example). But uptempo play is no less fundamentally sound than grinding it out. It's just different.

 

KU's best scorer had a crappy night against a team that was among the sexy picks to make some noise in the tourney. Plenty of rather innocent reasons besides "real basketball" triumphing over "ghetto boys".

The funny part of it all was that UNI was a sexy pick UNTIL the brackets came out. Prior to last Sunday, a lot of people were saying that they, along with teams like UTEP, Old Dominion, and even Murray State, were legitimate Sweet 16 threats. After a potential second-round matchup with Kansas was announced, however, I think a lot of people sort of wrote off UNI, while teams like UTEP and Murray State continued to be the sexy picks (partly due to the fact that they could potentially play each other in the second round, meaning one of them would HAVE to advance).

 

Then, the games are actually played... UTEP gets buried by Butler, Murray State wins a close game (then loses a close one), and UNI ends up being the only Sweet 16 of the bunch, after all. Of course, I'm leaving out another "sexy" upset Sweet 16 pick, that actually panned out as well, in Cornell. Still, I always find it amusing how this tournament takes twists that are the complete opposite of what you would think would happen.

 

Quick (or maybe not) side story... I was in a six-person NCAA tournament serpentine draft at my work. We each drafted ten teams, leaving the last five teams undrafted. You get a point for each game your teams win. The guys I'm drafting with vary in their NCAA "expertise"... A couple who watch pretty closely, a couple casual watchers, and one guy who had nothing to go on, other than a copy of the bracket. I drew the 2-slot, but the person who had #1 wanted to trade down. I took the top pick, thinking that the one "sure" team to win 2-3 games was Kansas (was nervous about Syracuse, who I would have taken #2, and I still think Duke and Kentucky are very beatable). At the 12/13 turn, all 1-3 seeds had been taken, except New Mexico. I felt that they were a risky pick, likely to bow out early, and I wasn't overly excited about any of the #4 seeds (particularly the three Big Ten teams), so I went with two #5's... Temple and Texas A&M. Looking back, I am kicking myself for passing on Michigan State and Purdue.

 

Picks 4-9, for me, were Xavier, UTEP, Old Dominion, Gonzaga, Murray State, and Houston. With the 60th (final pick in the draft), I had to choose between Ohio, a 14-seed, two 15-seeds, and the three 16-seeds who were not in the play-in game (the play-in teams had been drafted, given that one of them would win a game, and two 15-seeds had been taken already). I debated back and forth, between Ohio and Robert Morris, and went with Robert Morris, thinking Villanova was looking more beatable than Georgetown. Well, I don't think I was too far off on 'Nova... after all, RMorris pushed them to OT... but, never even thought Ohio would give Georgetown a game, much less blow them out.

 

Regardless, the Robert Morris win would have been gravy... I was still liking my position after Thursday's early games. Then, UTEP blows a half-time lead to Butler, and gets pummelled... Ouch. When Temple lost to Cornell, though, I really started to get nervous about my "team." Still, I got six first-round wins... KU, Xavier, Gonzaga, ODU, Texas A&M, and Murray State. Of the six, I felt I SHOULD get three wins in round 2, maybe even four. In a six-person contest, three or more in the Sweet 16 is above average.

 

Well, needless to say, my weekend was rough, in terms of this contest. Kansas loses a close one, while A&M, Murray State, and Old Dominion all lose games that they could have won as well. Gonzaga gets blown out, so my lone remaining sign of life is Xavier... Even if they were to win it all, I still wouldn't win this contest (since each win is worth the same, no matter what round).

 

The NCAA tournament is an emotional roller coaster, no doubt, whether you bet on games, fill out brackets, or do some sort of draft. And, for those who have never tried this "draft' format, give it a try... definitely different than just filling out a bracket, and not nearly as "easy" as one might think it would be.

[gbpfan1231]

I wonder if you actually even watch the games. For starters, the white guy calling the plays for KU was out-coached by the white guy calling the plays for N. Iowa. That was the biggest story of that game. N Iowa simply did a better job of dictating the pace of the game. However, these "run and gun" teams typically employ a stifling D as the precursor to that style. Very, very few teams can successfully run off made baskets (last year's UNC Heels being a notable example). But uptempo play is no less fundamentally sound than grinding it out. It's just different.

 

KU's best scorer had a crappy night against a team that was among the sexy picks to make some noise in the tourney. Plenty of rather innocent reasons besides "real basketball" triumphing over "ghetto boys".

I watch less than what I used to watch and the main reason is that in my opinion it has become much less of a team game and more what I call ghetto ball - the NBA is unwatchable for me - college isn't nearly as bad.

 

To me there is a difference in style of basketball that you see when a team has more white guys then black guys. Maybe that is just the style of game that I see more in my area - UWGB tends to play a slower more "team" style and Wisconsin is that style also - I grew up watching Dick Bennett coach and loved that style. Again, it is just my opinion but white guys are not nearly as athletic as most black players and they need to play a different style to compete and I like that style more so I like when these smaller more team style teams win - Northern Iowa - Cornell - the old Princeton teams.

 

Just my opinion.

[twiley]

I was cleaning my office today and found a bracket that I crumpled up. It had a list of my potential upsets including N. Iowa upsetting KU. I went with all of them but one in a majority of my entered brackets - N. Iowa

[MTSuper7]

I think the open 3 with 30 seconds left in the KU-UNI game was the right play, mainly because it is a "go for the win" type of play. Running around trying to avoid getting fouled is more of a "playing not to lose" strategy with 30 seconds left. There was a game on day 1 (I think) where a kid passed on an open layup to milk clock when his team was only up 3. He missed his foul shots IIRC (at least one of them).

 

I'll argue this... hitting a 3 in rhythm there is probably not much less makeable than two foul shots. If you look at straight percentages, sure the free throws are the higher percentage shot. But think about the situation. You have to make both shots... In a 1 point game... against the number one team in the country... with all kinds of time to think about the shots before you shoot. The three was wide open. Sure, he could have missed it, but would they have been in that much worse of shape? Kansas would have still likely had time to get a quick two and foul again (if the UNI guy makes both free throws) or milk it for the last shot to tie or win. Having the confidence to take the shot in rhythm there knowing that a make is a potential dagger but that a miss doesn't mean you lose the game - well, maybe it's just me but I like that mentality.

 

ETA - Remember when Boise State went for 2 in their bowl game vs. Oklahoma to win vs. go to another OT? Is that the best percentage play there? Probably not, but when a significant underdog has a chance to go for the jugular, they should go for it.

Edited March 23, 2010 by MTSuper7

[Jackass]

ETA - Remember when Boise State went for 2 in their bowl game vs. Oklahoma to win vs. go to another OT? Is that the best percentage play there? Probably not, but when a significant underdog has a chance to go for the jugular, they should go for it.

 

Very good analogy

[Gopher]

I think the open 3 with 30 seconds left in the KU-UNI game was the right play, mainly because it is a "go for the win" type of play. Running around trying to avoid getting fouled is more of a "playing not to lose" strategy with 30 seconds left. There was a game on day 1 (I think) where a kid passed on an open layup to milk clock when his team was only up 3. He missed his foul shots IIRC (at least one of them).

 

I'll argue this... hitting a 3 in rhythm there is probably not much less makeable than two foul shots. If you look at straight percentages, sure the free throws are the higher percentage shot. But think about the situation. You have to make both shots... In a 1 point game... against the number one team in the country... with all kinds of time to think about the shots before you shoot. The three was wide open. Sure, he could have missed it, but would they have been in that much worse of shape? Kansas would have still likely had time to get a quick two and foul again (if the UNI guy makes both free throws) or milk it for the last shot to tie or win. Having the confidence to take the shot in rhythm there knowing that a make is a potential dagger but that a miss doesn't mean you lose the game - well, maybe it's just me but I like that mentality.

 

ETA - Remember when Boise State went for 2 in their bowl game vs. Oklahoma to win vs. go to another OT? Is that the best percentage play there? Probably not, but when a significant underdog has a chance to go for the jugular, they should go for it.

I agree with all of this, and the part in bold supports the point I am trying to make. I think the three-point basket SHOULD be more difficult than making a couple of FT's... but it's really not.

 

Once again, I'm not criticizing the kid for taking the shot, the coach for agreeing with it, or anything of the sort. I just think that says a lot about how "routine" the three-pointer has become... It has become so routine that it really no longer warrants a 50% increase in points given, in comparison to a two-point basket. Move the line back a couple feet, and the three points is warranted. Otherwise, just leave the line where it is, and call it a 2.5-pointer.

[detlef]

Very good analogy

All but for the fact that it quite likely was the best percentage play. Kicking to tie the game means you have an almost 100% chance to have whatever you think your chances are in that next OT. If you're an underdog, then I think it would be rather presumptuous that your chances are 50/50. Regardless, even if they are, your total odds are just slightly less than 50/50 because the PAT is not an absolute given.

 

So, if you think you've got a 50/50 shot of punching it in, right then and there, it is not as bold a move as people make it out to be.

 

All that said, I do agree that the 3 pointer was the wise move. Guys at this level of play are freaking deadly when they don't have a guy in their face. Just watch warm ups. They freaking nail everything. Sure, there's more pressure on this than warm ups but there would be more pressure at the line as well. Pushing the line out a foot wouldn't change that. If a good shooter is absolutely wide open and can get his feet set, the odds are just too good to pass up. Especially if it means making it a 2 possession game.

[keggerz]

Saint Mary's is down at the half 46-17 vs Baylor

 

edit: hope they are able to regroup and make some semblance of a run...even if they don't

they have nothing to hang their heads about.

Edited March 27, 2010 by keggerz