You would be fired.........

[Ursa Majoris]

.......but if you're the CEO of HP and get caught falsifying expenses, you get $28 million.

 

How wonderful for him. Most of us would just get the boot.

[buddahj]

amazing what some people seem to be able to get away with

[jetsfan]

amazing what some people seem to be able to get away with

 

i know, reading the huddle at work

[Jimmy Neutron]

Wow. I'm going to request a golden parachute Monday morning. I'll let you know how it goes.

[The Mucca]

 

Big deal, if he was a politician, he would get to keep the money he scammed, then get appointed to a high cabinet position.

[Ursa Majoris]

Big deal, if he was a politician, he would get to keep the money he scammed, then get appointed to a high cabinet position.

You are OK with shareholder money going to this, then?

[The Mucca]

You are OK with shareholder money going to this, then?

 

You are OK with are tax money going to this, then?

[Ursa Majoris]

You are OK with are tax money going to this, then?

I know it's pointless to engage you in anything other than grunting but what point are you making? Let me explain what we have here.

 

We have a person in charge of a colossal company who has falsified his expenses. He has been fired and has collected $28 million on his way out the door. The company didn't have to give him anything, in fact it could likely have brought charges. The money he was given belonged to shareholders.

 

Please explain how politicians parallel this by providing a single example of a politician who has been fired and then collected, as a parting gift, many millions of dollars.

 

Thank you.

[The Mucca]

You are right, it's pointless, your love affair with politicians will taint you in there favor over the private sector every time.

This guy turned around a failing company and was fired for falsifying his personal expense account. I don't have the time or patience

to look up every politician that has done worse just to prove that they are, at best, just as corrupt. I'm sure all you would have to do

is google political scandals to find your answers.

[bushwacked]

You are right, it's pointless, your love affair with politicians will taint you in there favor over the private sector every time.

This guy turned around a failing company and was fired for falsifying his personal expense account. I don't have the time or patience

to look up every politician that has done worse just to prove that they are, at best, just as corrupt. I'm sure all you would have to do

is google political scandals to find your answers.

 

Yea, your point is no-one should take fault with the guy because politicians are worse? That's brilliant.

Edited August 8, 2010 by bushwacked

[The Mucca]

Yea, your point is no-one should take fault with the guy because politicians are worse? That's brilliant.

 

No, my point was, the guy was fired for what he did, big deal.

[Deathpig]

I grabbed this from the company's 8-K (SEC filing):

 

In connection with Mr. Hurd’s resignation from HP, HP and Mr. Hurd entered into a Separation Agreement and Release (the “Separation Agreement”) that provides Mr. Hurd, in exchange for signing a general release of claims in favor of HP, with (i) a severance payment of $12,224,693 under the HP Severance Plan for Executive Officers; (ii) an extension until September 7, 2010 of the expiration date of his outstanding options to purchase up to 775,000 shares of HP common stock that were vested as of the date of his resignation; (iii) pro-rata vesting and settlement, at the same time and on the same terms as other HP employees, of 330,177 performance-based restricted stock units granted to Mr. Hurd in January 17, 2008 based on actual HP performance during the three-year performance period ending on October 31, 2010; and (iv) settlement on December 11, 2010 of 15,853 time-based restricted stock units granted to Mr. Hurd on December 11, 2009 at a price equal to the lesser of (a) the closing price of HP’s common stock on August 6, 2010 or ( b ) the per share closing trading price of HP common stock on December 11, 2010. The value of both the pro-rata performance-based restricted stock units and the time-based restricted stock units to which Mr. Hurd is entitled is capped such that Mr. Hurd will not receive greater value in respect of those awards on their dates of settlement than what he would be entitled to assuming the closing price of HP’s common stock on their respective settlement dates is the same as the closing price on August 6, 2010.

 

In addition to the foregoing, Mr. Hurd will receive additional benefits customarily provided by HP in connection with the departure of all U.S. employees, including eligibility to receive HP’s continued group medical and dental coverage through the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1995, as amended, for up to 18 months.

 

The Separation Agreement, together with Mr. Hurd’s Agreement Regarding Confidential Information and Proprietary Developments, which will continue in effect following his resignation, also contains various restrictive covenants, including covenants relating to non-solicitation, confidentiality, and cooperation.

 

The foregoing summary of the Separation Agreement does not purport to be complete and is qualified in its entirety by reference to the Separation Agreement, which is filed hereto as Exhibit 10.1 and is incorporated herein by reference.

 

 

The TLDR version of this is basically if this was a legal case, the company settled instead of going to court. In the grand scheme of 'evil corporate CEOs' fudging your expense account a little bit (and yes, I'm sure his yearly expense account is pretty big) isn't a particularly serious charge-- and I bet it happens often (just like employees using office internet on The Huddle, or personal calls on phones, or personal paperwork on copiers/fax machines, etc.). At the end of the day, they could probably have kept the entire thing quiet and you'd have never known about it but the board actually decided to take action-- and of course the board acting on behalf of the integrity of the company gets no notice or press... figures.

 

More than likely, he had a contract with the company that had provisions for what happens when he leaves, and as the company decided to not pursue a literal 'firing for cause', which probably would have resulted in a lawsuit (and given the relatively benign nature of what he would have been fired for they might have lost and gotten nailed a LOT worse than 12m) it was easiler for them to make it a mutual seperation. This happens a lot at levels below CEO, you just don't hear about it-- someone that could probably be fired for cause will sometimes get 4-8 weeks of pay to just go and make life easy on everyone.

 

And yes, this kind of crap happens in the public sector, where an official ends up leaving office to go work for lobbying/PAC groups and raking in money outside of the spotlight. People in office are getting greased pretty good, but it doesn't go to them... it goes to and endless array of non/not for profits, LLCs, and the like so you don't see the cash show up on their income tax returns (like the LLC that bought John Kerry's 7 million dollar yacht, for example). If a guy you like gets ousted, you can give him a job at one of those 'fronts' and he can keep himself still in the Washington circle, collecting money, and generally staying out of the spotlight. Not a bad gig, if you can get it.

[The Mucca]

I know it's pointless to engage you in anything other than grunting but what point are you making? Let me explain what we have here.

 

We have a person in charge of a colossal company who has falsified his expenses. He has been fired and has collected $28 million on his way out the door. The company didn't have to give him anything, in fact it could likely have brought charges. The money he was given belonged to shareholders.

 

Please explain how politicians parallel this by providing a single example of a politician who has been fired and then collected, as a parting gift, many millions of dollars.

 

Thank you.

 

He made the company/shareholders way more money than he was paid, quote from the article

 

"Beloved by investors for his relentless cost-cutting — and scorned by thousands of laid-off employees for the same — Hurd was seen as rescuing the company from the mess left behind by his predecessor, Carly Fiorina.

 

Hurd has transformed the 71-year-old company from a computer and printer maker hooked on profits from printer cartridges into a company that looks a lot like its archrival IBM Corp., a major player in technology services and other fast-growing areas."

 

How much money do politicians make us taxpayers for using their expense account on thousand dollar a day hookers?

 

"grunt" Thank You "grunt"

Edited August 8, 2010 by The Mucca

[10g_DBA]

You are right, it's pointless, your love affair with politicians will taint you in there favor over the private sector every time.

This guy turned around a failing company and was fired for falsifying his personal expense account. I don't have the time or patience

to look up every politician that has done worse just to prove that they are, at best, just as corrupt. I'm sure all you would have to do

is google political scandals to find your answers.

rather Megan Foxie reply, pecker nose.

[The Mucca]

rather Megan Foxie reply, pecker nose.

 

 

coming from a monster truck aficionado, wgaf

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

This is a weird thread...

 

ursa brings up an article about CEOs acting badly that should get universal "wow. what a jerk" responses

mucca having a seeming hardon for ursa starts rambling about politicians being worse

death pig (whom i do not know) brings up a really salient article, and a very good explanation to the severance that the ceo received

as usual good info is ignored at the tailgate, and mucca decides to direct his hardon towards 10gDBA

[The Holy Roller]

"Peckernose", "hardon", my oh my. I think I have a "woody" myself this morning!

[Kid Cid]

You should know that if you're going to steal, it is always better to steal big.

[whomper]

Wow. I'm going to request a golden shower Monday morning. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

 

It will be messy

[WaterMan]

This is the American dream right here.

[Ursa Majoris]

Private enterprise is always better than government because it cares so much about the customers and is so efficient. Here's another executive departing after criminality and cheating the government, this one with at least $130 million in his back pocket.

 

Health-care costs, the national debt and taxes are all going up, and Joel Gemunder is one reason why.

 

Until Mr. Gemunder's abrupt retirement was announced on Monday, he was CEO of Covington, Ky.-based Omnicare, the nation's largest dispenser of pharmaceuticals to nursing homes.

 

Omnicare gets most of its revenue from Medicare, Medicaid and other companies sucking on these same government feeding tubes. Omnicare also lives up to its name, serving 1.4 million beds in 47 states.

 

Mr. Gemunder, 71, had been in charge since 1981, but now he's split with one of the largest lump-sum pension payouts in history, The Wall Street Journal reported. He's getting a $91 million pension payout, plus severance, vesting of restricted stock and other goodies that bring his final payday to at least $130 million. And that's on top of the $14 million he bagged last year.

 

As CEO, Mr. Gemunder touted "cost reduction initiatives," including salary cuts for employees, but these initiatives didn't apply to himself.

 

And what did the shareholders get for their money? Omnicare shares took a tumble last week after the company reported a shocking drop in the number of prescriptions it fills.

 

Omnicare stock peaked in March 2006 at more than $61, but now trades under $23. That's a drop of more than 60% -- versus a roughly 11% decline in the S&P 500 during the same period.

 

And what did the taxpayers and customers get? Omnicare has long been plagued by huge litigation costs amid allegations of kickback and billing schemes.

 

In November 2009, Omnicare announced it would pay $98 million to settle a civil case brought by the Justice Department that it paid kickbacks to nursing homes and took kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies, including Johnson & Johnson. Omnicare denied guilt in the case.

 

"Illegal conduct like this can undermine the medical judgments of health-care professionals, lead to patients being prescribed medications they do not need, and drive up the costs of health care," said Tony West, a Justice Department official.

 

Omnicare also agreed to pay $49.5 million in 2006 to settle Medicare fraud claims. And last month, new details emerged in a continuing kickback lawsuit in Illinois, the Chicago Tribune reported. Handwritten notes place Mr. Gemunder and nursing home mogul Morris Esormes in a March 2004 meeting, discussing the $32 million sale of Total Pharmacy to Omnicare.

 

The lawsuit alleges that Mr. Gemunder paid millions more for Total to ensure contracts remained in place at Mr. Esformes's homes.

 

Omnicare denies the allegations, and Mr. Gemunder is now on to the next thing. "I look forward with great excitement and enthusiasm to the next chapter of my life," he said in a press release.

 

With Mr. Gemunder enthusiastically out the door, interim CEO James Shelton promised on a Thursday conference call that the company's culture would change, focusing on employees and customers instead of top management. "We've had too much corporate wealth and not enough field wealth," he said.

 

Oh, and the alleged kickbacks will have to stop, too.

[Zooty]

Private enterprise is always better than government because it cares so much about the customers and is so efficient. Here's another executive departing after criminality and cheating the government, this one with at least $130 million in his back pocket.

Mr. Gemunder, 71, had been in charge since 1981, but now he's split with one of the largest lump-sum pension payouts in history, The Wall Street Journal reported. He's getting a $91 million pension payout, plus severance, vesting of restricted stock and other goodies that bring his final payday to at least $130 million. And that's on top of the $14 million he bagged last year.

 

But after taxes its only like $70 mil. I sure hope he'll be able to get by on that.

[Ursa Majoris]

I grabbed this from the company's 8-K (SEC filing):

 

 

 

 

The TLDR version of this is basically if this was a legal case, the company settled instead of going to court. In the grand scheme of 'evil corporate CEOs' fudging your expense account a little bit (and yes, I'm sure his yearly expense account is pretty big) isn't a particularly serious charge-- and I bet it happens often (just like employees using office internet on The Huddle, or personal calls on phones, or personal paperwork on copiers/fax machines, etc.). At the end of the day, they could probably have kept the entire thing quiet and you'd have never known about it but the board actually decided to take action-- and of course the board acting on behalf of the integrity of the company gets no notice or press... figures.

 

More than likely, he had a contract with the company that had provisions for what happens when he leaves, and as the company decided to not pursue a literal 'firing for cause', which probably would have resulted in a lawsuit (and given the relatively benign nature of what he would have been fired for they might have lost and gotten nailed a LOT worse than 12m) it was easiler for them to make it a mutual seperation. This happens a lot at levels below CEO, you just don't hear about it-- someone that could probably be fired for cause will sometimes get 4-8 weeks of pay to just go and make life easy on everyone.

 

And yes, this kind of crap happens in the public sector, where an official ends up leaving office to go work for lobbying/PAC groups and raking in money outside of the spotlight. People in office are getting greased pretty good, but it doesn't go to them... it goes to and endless array of non/not for profits, LLCs, and the like so you don't see the cash show up on their income tax returns (like the LLC that bought John Kerry's 7 million dollar yacht, for example). If a guy you like gets ousted, you can give him a job at one of those 'fronts' and he can keep himself still in the Washington circle, collecting money, and generally staying out of the spotlight. Not a bad gig, if you can get it.

This is a good response, well thought out but so far as the parallels with politicians go, it doesn't hold water. Politicians are not paid out by their employer when fired for illegality. Kerry's yacht is a red herring because he (actually his wife) is independently wealthy and, as far as I know, he hasn't done anything illegal. Hypocritical, sure, but not illegal.

 

Point taken about the board being open but did they have an option? It would certainly have become public as soon as he left. It's not like they could sneak him out and no-one be the wiser. I also get the choice they made between a clean break and a possibly messy lawsuit but nevertheless my point stands - there is a different set of rules for the top vs the bottom.

 

Also, I'd take issue with the 4-8 weeks of pay being equivalent to umpteen million dollars after being caught with, in effect, one's hand in the cash register. I know for a fact that fiddling expenses at my company will get you fired and for damn sure there won't be any severance other than outstanding PTO.

[The Mucca]

Not much worse than the political yuppies of Bell have done, they even left the city in financial ruin.

[Deathpig]

(Yes, the Kerry thing is a red herring because he married into wealth, and I don't know the details on the LLC, but it was useful to show exactly how that sort of thing works in other cases. Of course, there is a chance that yacht wasn't from the misses as much as there's a chance it was.)

 

I guess the difference in my mind is the level of behavior and the burden of proof required in both cases. Presidents and Congressmen don't generally get booted by 'the board of directors', they get booted out by not getting re-elected. They don't get 'arrested' because they are basically above the law (both institutions have their own way to deal with that). Let's say Rangel and Waters both get nailed by the Senate Ethics committee. Are they going to go to jail? Hardly. They might not even lose their seats immediately (that outcome is possible, but rare). They may lose re-election, but then they'll have a nice Tom Daschle-like existance bringing in millions by lobbying (or by consulting to lobbyists so they don't violate their one year clause). You want to complain about a CEO fudging his expense report over amounts that are a fraction of a percent of his salary... that's cool. Where's the populist outrage for the 780903454 vacations Obama has been on, or the half a million to send Eva Peron Michelle to Spain? Where's the fire about how on one hand Obama can declare every facet of American life is in crisis, yet has been golfing more in a year and a half then the last guy did in eight?

 

Everyone was pissed off the car companies would DARE fly their CEOs out to meet with Congress, apparently ignorant of the fact that Congressmen get their own free flights, free cars, free drivers, free securty details, and on and on all funded by taxpayers. Those don't show up on their relatively small salaries in public office, but you're still footing the bill for it. Those same Congressmen make a fortune (indirectly and hidden) through lobbyists, PACs, and the like but you don't see the fingerprints because it doesn't go into their re-election funds or in their name where they'd have to declare it. Many abuse their public office to arrange deals and laws to help businesses they have interests in (Pelosi has done this in CA, and Waters is currently being hoisted up by her petards for this) and never get caught, and sometimes even when caught or something is fishy, don't face the Ethics committee.

 

I don't understand how people can complain about a CEO and not complain about government when you *might* be affected by the CEOs supposed largesse (assuming you might have stock in that company) but don't seem to care about government largesse which you ARE affected by in taxes every year (and more than just income tax, city/county/state/federal... they all get you).

 

If companies blow money on this crap, and it really is frivolous, then they weaken themselves and a smart competitor can take advantage. There is no competition for public services so there is absolutely no reason for anything in the public sector to be efficient. THIS is why government programs are generally a disaster, why we spend so much on Defense but don't see the results you'd expect from that expenditure, why the Post Office can't make money, etc, etc. Government programs don't have to run with a survival instinct because they'll just get bailed out, they have no competition so they don't have to worry about efficiency, so they bleed money like stuck pigs and we all end up paying for it.

 

I know it's just a silly movie, but I think Distinguished Gentlemen makes a pretty good point about the ridiculous level of sleaze in Washington, and that movie is what... 20 years old now? Nothing has changed, or if it has, it's gotten a lot worse.