If you belive in effective experince

[bushwacked]

http://www.politicususa.com/en/clinton-stewart-tea-party

 

"We are spending 17.2 % of our income on health care, the next most developed (sic) country spends 10.5%"

 

ZMOG ZOBAMA!

Edited September 19, 2010 by bushwacked

[moneymakers]

Bushwack and LULU sittin in a tree.

Edited September 19, 2010 by moneymakers

[Savage Beatings]

So as the government continues to transer more and more money and power into the public sector, to dole out to whom they see fit, the people who fight against this must only want unchecked private power... yep, that's it.

[The Mucca]

How old is Clinton now? He is beginning to sound as senile as Carter.

[Perchoutofwater]

Isn't Obamacare making it even more expensive?

[tosberg34]

http://www.politicususa.com/en/clinton-stewart-tea-party

 

"We are spending 17.2 % of our income on health care, the next most developed (sic) country spends 10.5%"

 

ZMOG ZOBAMA!

 

And 17.2% is going to look like a bargain after ObamaCare goes into full swing.

[Ursa Majoris]

"We are spending 17.2 % of our income on health care, the next most developed (sic) country spends 10.5%"

Nobody has ever satisfactorily explained this (other than stating what's obviously true which is that health care is a colossal scam).

[Clubfoothead]

So as the government continues to transer more and more money and power into the public sector, to dole out to whom they see fit, the people who fight against this must only want unchecked private power... yep, that's it.

 

Well of course that's the way it is since apparently anyone in favor of Obama's proposals is a communist just looking to steal from their rich neighbors... yep, that's it.

[Perchoutofwater]

Nobody has ever satisfactorily explained this (other than stating what's obviously true which is that health care is a colossal scam).

 

There is no doubt that medical care costs more than it should, and probably will cost more now that Obamacare has passed than it would have otherwise. We need real reform. Still I wonder about numbers like reported in this thread. I wonder if these numbers include elective surgeries. I also wonder in what situations do we provide care that is denied in other countries. Something as simple is including dental cost in health care could easily explain why our costs or greater than the UK.

[Ursa Majoris]

There is no doubt that medical care costs more than it should, and probably will cost more now that Obamacare has passed than it would have otherwise. We need real reform. Still I wonder about numbers like reported in this thread. I wonder if these numbers include elective surgeries. I also wonder in what situations do we provide care that is denied in other countries. Something as simple is including dental cost in health care could easily explain why our costs or greater than the UK.

I think you'll find that the per procedure costs, the per one-night stay costs, the routine exam costs are all far in excess of other countries. I might see if I can find something along these lines - pretty sure I've seen this before. Don't forget these are per capita costs so your electives are going to be pretty insignificant.

 

Edit: Well, that didn't take long.

 

There is a simple explanation for why American health care costs so much more than health care in any other country: because we pay so much more for each unit of care. As Halvorson explained, and academics and consultancies have repeatedly confirmed, if you leave everything else the same -- the volume of procedures, the days we spend in the hospital, the number of surgeries we need -- but plug in the prices Canadians pay, our health-care spending falls by about 50 percent.

 

Edit2: Here's the URL for the pack of charts. Prepare to be astounded.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Ursa Majoris

[bushwacked]

Edit2: Here's the URL for the pack of charts. Prepare to be astounded.

 

That's just because we haven't let the market fix it yet.

[bushwacked]

So as the government continues to transer more and more money and power into the public sector, to dole out to whom they see fit, the people who fight against this must only want unchecked private power... yep, that's it.

 

Yes, the American health care system shouldn't be reformed or it should only be reformed voluntarily through private industry. Because we have the best health care model in the world and regulation is Socialism. Any attempt by the Obama administration to reform a completely unsustainable system, which has a significant and adverse effect on our economy, is a ruse and primarily part of a Socialist take over of our freedoms and liberty.

Edited September 19, 2010 by bushwacked

[Jimmy Neutron]

Yes, the American health care system shouldn't be reformed or it should only be reformed voluntarily through private industry. Because we have the best health care model in the world and regulation is Socialism. Any attempt by the Obama administration to reform a completely unsustainable system, which has a significant and adverse effect on our economy, is a ruse and primarily part of a Socialist take over of our freedoms and liberty.

 

The ruse is that the recent "reform" grew the existing system without addressing cost control. Someone remind me, were we supposed to cheer for that?

[SEC=UGA]

http://www.politicususa.com/en/clinton-stewart-tea-party

 

"We are spending 17.2 % of our income on health care, the next most developed (sic) country spends 10.5%"

 

ZMOG ZOBAMA!

 

Does this include expenditures for Illegal immigrants, the children of illegal immigrants, those from foreign nations who come to the US for elective surgeries/treatments of ailments that their governments will not offer, outlays for foreign people vacationing here who need medical treatment, etc...?

 

Further, is the illegal population calculated into the "per-capita" statistics? If not, does this mean that we are providing care to 11 to 14 million people that are not counted into that "per-capita" number?

 

Does this number include the healthcare money spent on fraudulent claims, which is in the BILLIONS of dollars per year?

 

I could see how our healthcare number is greater than those of other nations when all of these things are taken into consideration.

[bpwallace49]

Does this include expenditures for Illegal immigrants, the children of illegal immigrants, those from foreign nations who come to the US for elective surgeries/treatments of ailments that their governments will not offer, outlays for foreign people vacationing here who need medical treatment, etc...?

 

Further, is the illegal population calculated into the "per-capita" statistics? If not, does this mean that we are providing care to 11 to 14 million people that are not counted into that "per-capita" number?

 

Does this number include the healthcare money spent on fraudulent claims, which is in the BILLIONS of dollars per year?

 

I could see how our healthcare number is greater than those of other nations when all of these things are taken into consideration.

 

Because none of those things ever happens in other countries. They are soley American problems right?

[SEC=UGA]

Because none of those things ever happens in other countries. They are soley American problems right?

 

Well, BP most other nations do not freely give out health care to foreign illegals as readily as the US, they do not have as alrge of a population of illegals as does the US. The illegals have not had as many babies, who are now citizens, that receive medical care. Other nations do not have the volume of visitors, people vactioning in their country that the US does, and at the end of the day I would be willing to bet that the amount of fraud in the system of the other countries is no where near as prevalent as it is in the US.

 

200 Billion dollars in Fraud in our medical system per year

The EU has roughly 71.2 Billion dollars in fraud per year

 

Couldn't find a good number for what the Illegals in the US cost nationally for healthcare, but the number is 10.5 billion for CA, I guess we could extrapolate and say that I 'm sure it is in excess of the 34 billion nationally that was estimated in 2001.

 

Basically, this paper, idicates that only 1% of the EU population is illegal immigrants and that the countries housing them don't offer the amount of HC that we do to them.

 

So we need to look at what adds to the costs of procedures in our HC system. There are MANY factors. Doctors wages are considerably higher in the US than in other nations. If we can't cut teachers salaries, I'm not going to push for cutting the salaries of doctors. We have a larger % of the population in the US that is unable or unwilling to pay for medical treatment, thus the cost of those "free" procedures is calculated into the cost for the procedure for one who can pay, thereby increasing the cost per procedure.

Edited September 20, 2010 by SEC=UGA

[Ursa Majoris]

Well, BP most other nations do not freely give out health care to foreign illegals as readily as the US, they do not have as alrge of a population of illegals as does the US. The illegals have not had as many babies, who are now citizens, that receive medical care. Other nations do not have the volume of visitors, people vactioning in their country that the US does, and at the end of the day I would be willing to bet that the amount of fraud in the system of the other countries is no where near as prevalent as it is in the US.

 

200 Billion dollars in Fraud in our medical system per year

The EU has roughly 71.2 Billion dollars in fraud per year

 

Couldn't find a good number for what the Illegals in the US cost nationally for healthcare, but the number is 10.5 billion for CA, I guess we could extrapolate and say that I 'm sure it is in excess of the 34 billion nationally that was estimated in 2001.

 

Basically, this paper, idicates that only 1% of the EU population is illegal immigrants and that the countries housing them don't offer the amount of HC that we do to them.

Tourists (certainly those from Europe) bring medical insurance with them, at least one million dollars. I know for a fact that the first thing that happens when a tourist enters a hospital here is that they have to produce a credit card, regardless of whether they are on a stretcher or not. That's not the case for American tourists in Europe, even those staying there for a year

 

Isn't it time you guys admitted the whole thing is a gigantic overpriced scam? Instead of all these excuses, doesn't Occam's Razor apply?

[Ursa Majoris]

We have a larger % of the population in the US that is unable or unwilling to pay for medical treatment, thus the cost of those "free" procedures is calculated into the cost for the procedure for one who can pay, thereby increasing the cost per procedure.

Wasn't one of the main points of Obamacare to cover everyone, thus rendering this excuse null and void?

[SEC=UGA]

Wasn't one of the main points of Obamacare to cover everyone, thus rendering this excuse null and void?

 

If you look at the EU, they do not cover everyone... If you're illegal, you better have a good way to pay for the care you are about to receive.

[bpwallace49]

If you look at the EU, they do not cover everyone... If you're illegal, you better have a good way to pay for the care you are about to receive.

 

So you are saying that Americans are too generous?

[Ursa Majoris]

If you look at the EU, they do not cover everyone... If you're illegal, you better have a good way to pay for the care you are about to receive.

See #17

[SEC=UGA]

So you are saying that Americans are too generous?

 

YES!!! And I don't want them being so generous with my money by giving it to people who don't belong here and those who are here that simply view it as their right to have a part of it. That includes those sumbitches with their churches/Mosques/Temples who pay no taxes on revenue when they are using the same streets and other public funded infrastructure for which I am paying.

[SEC=UGA]

See #17

 

It's an opinion article obviuosly written by a dirty filthy lying commie...

 

That and he wasn't an illegal immigrant.

Edited September 20, 2010 by SEC=UGA

[Azazello1313]

Nobody has ever satisfactorily explained this (other than stating what's obviously true which is that health care is a colossal scam).

 

oh yes, they have

[Ursa Majoris]

oh yes, they have

 

Indeed.

 

Our steady movement toward reliance on third-party payment no doubt explains the extraordinary rise in spending on medical care in the United States. However, other advanced countries also rely on third-party payment, many or most of them to an even greater extent than we do. What explains our higher level of spending?

 

I must confess that despite much thought and scouring of the literature, I have no satisfactory answer. One clue is my estimate that if the pre–World War II system had continued—that is, if tax exemption and Medicare and Medicaid had never been enacted—expenditures on medical care would have amounted to less than half the current level, which would have put us near the bottom of the OECD list rather than at the top.

 

In terms of holding down cost, one-payer directly administered government systems, such as exist in Canada and Great Britain, have a real advantage over our mixed system. As the direct purchaser of all or nearly all medical services, they are in a monopoly position in hiring physicians and can hold down their remuneration, so that physicians earn much less in those countries than in the United States. In addition, they can ration care more directly—at the cost of long waiting lists and much dissatisfaction.

 

In addition, once the whole population is covered, there is little political incentive to increase spending on medical care. Once the bulk of costs have been taken over by government, as they have in most of the other OECD countries, the politician does not have the carrot of increased services with which to attract new voters, so attention turns to holding down costs.

 

So, our choice is greatly lowered costs via single payer or better access (but vastly more expensive) to health care or foot the bill for the non-catastrophic ourselves?

Edited September 20, 2010 by Ursa Majoris