SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 (CNN) -- This is Linda DeRegnaucourt's last summer off. When school starts in August, it will be her last year to think about high school classes, advanced placement tests and calculus. If all goes as planned, this will be her last year teaching at Palm Bay High School in Brevard County, Florida. She doesn't want to go. After 13 years of teaching high-level math, she has a tested stable of learning methods that helped all her students pass the AP calculus exam. Her room is a popular place for students to escape the drama of the high school cafeteria. Few jobs can indulge her excitement for linear functions and matrix calculus. "I hate to have to leave it," DeRegnaucourt said. "I really thought I was going to be that teacher, 65 years old and retiring from the education field. That's not going to happen." She's quitting, she said, because she can't afford to stay. Two years ago, a divorce left 47-year-old DeRegnaucourt with a single income. Rental properties she owned only caused more financial strain as Florida's real estate market fell apart in recent years. Despite her years of experience, she earns $38,000, she said, less than she made in the past, when teachers received larger supplements for additional certifications. Once she made a budget, she realized she didn't make enough money to cover her expenses and save for her future. Changing careers felt like the only wise financial move, she said. Linda DeRegnaucourt -- Ms. D to her students -- plans to leave her teaching job next year.DeRegnaucourt isn't the only one. Attracting the best students to teaching -- and keeping them -- is tough for schools across the country. Average starting teaching salaries are $39,000, and rise with experience to an average of $54,000, according to "Closing the Talent Gap," a 2010 report by McKinsey & Company. Teacher salaries can't compete with other careers, the report said, and annual teacher turnover in the United States is 14%. At "high-needs" high schools, it is 20%. The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development data from 2007 said the United States ranks 20th out of 29 for starting teacher salaries, and 23rd out of 29 for teacher salaries after 15 years. But it's not just the pay, DeRegnaucourt said, "It's the way we're treated." Her colleagues have waited until just before school starts to learn what courses they'll be teaching, she said. Uncertainty makes it impossible to prepare, hard to succeed. "Five years ago, 10 years ago, kids would ask me, should they become teachers? I was like, 'Oh, God, yes, I love what I do,' " she said. "Now, I tell my kids, 'You're really, really bright. Why don't you think about going into (this or that?)' They have the potential to be doctors, lawyers, nurses, CEOs and scientists . Why would I recommend to my kids, who I absolutely love, to struggle for years?" This year, she's finishing the prerequisite courses needed to enroll in nursing school. DeRegnaucourt hopes to spend a couple of more years learning, then work in emergency care nursing to gain experience. "It's challenging," she said, "but there's not a whole lot that's more challenging than doing upper level mathematics." Here's what DeRegnaucourt had to say about her decision to leave teaching. CNN: Why did you go into teaching? DeRegnaucourt: When my son was 6 years old, the school system that he was in in Georgia, it did not allow the teacher to take her planning days unless she could find a volunteer sub. She had to ask for parental volunteers. I told her at the beginning of the year, 'I work at night. I'll take every single one of your days. I can substitute for you.' I really enjoyed working with the kids. Then I read an article in the paper, and it said that (most) boys get the same educations as their mothers. I had not gone to college. I wanted my son to be college educated. It was time for me to go back to school. I knew that math was an area where I would never, ever worry about getting a job as a teacher. If you're in math or physics or chemistry, you can write your own ticket. CNN: Had you always been interested in math? DeRegnaucourt: I was not a good student in high school. I really needed a teacher to take me under their wing and go "Look, you have potential." I didn't have that teacher. I missed a lot of school. You can't be good at math unless you are present to learn it. When I went back to school, my first math class was pre-pre-college math ... you didn't even get a grade for it, you just got pass or fail. I remember starting in negative numbers; I never even knew negative numbers existed, except in my checking account. Whatever I did learn in high school, I had forgotten. I was 29 years old. I had been out of school for 11 years. I had a teacher for developmental math named Ms. Sifton, and she was amazing. Out of my entire career, she was the best math professor I ever had. I loved math. CNN: Did that influence how you teach? DeRegnaucourt: I didn't take Ms. Sifton for granted. The way she made it so elemental, and gave me that strong base to go ahead and succeed. What I have found is most people aren't awful at math, even if math is not your strength. You can be successful, given the right mentor. It definitely influenced the way I teach. I have always had a very open relationship with my students. I don't believe I deserve respect because I'm older. I deserve it because I've earned it, and you deserve it because you've earned it. The majority of the really, really amazing techniques I have came from students. I worked summers for years. I taught a six-week class where students could either remediate or jump ahead. You taught it for an eight-hour day. I had a young man, Victor Rodriguez. He came up to me, "Ms. D, we're just learning and learning and learning. We're just forgetting and forgetting and forgetting. We need to practice it." I asked "What do you think we should do?" He said, "I think we need to go to the boards." Every day, except on test days, my kids go to the board (to work math problems in front of each other). If they finish and they get it right, I give them a thumbs up and they go help another student. The best teaching technique I have -- it came from Victor Rodriguez. CNN: Why did you decide to leave teaching? DeRegnaucourt: I have had to learn how to budget. In those thoughts, I came to the realization that the money I make isn't enough. It isn't enough to live alone. That realization was daunting. As educators, we make what we make, nothing more, nothing less. In industry, if I'm valuable, my company can keep me by making the package they offer me more attractive. In education, the principal's hands are tied. You just never know what the future holds. I still need to plan for the future. CNN: Why did you choose nursing? DeRegnaucourt: I'm happiest when I feel like I'm making a difference in another individual's life. There are other things I could do. I could take actuarial exams. I could easily pass those; it's math. Do I want to be an actuary, doing risk assessment for an insurance company with no human contact? No, thank you. What's really amazing is that nurses, with a two-year degree, make $20,000 more than I do. I want them to get a love not of mathematics, just knowledge, just learning. I want them to always remember how anything was possible. --Linda DeRegnaucourt CNN: How did your students react when they learned this would be your last year teaching? DeRegnaucourt: My students were the first ones to know. One student comes to mind: Just the other day, he e-mailed and asked me to call him. He wanted to confirm again I would be there next year. The ones who were leaving, they don't care. I've already done for them what I needed to do. My juniors moving up to calculus, they were distraught. They know I know what I'm doing. They know what it's like to have a teacher who doesn't know what they're doing. They've all had bad teachers. We all have. CNN: What do you hope your students take away from their time in your classes? DeRegnaucourt: Kids come into my classroom, and everyone thinks they're all math geeks. They're not. I have so many kids who take my class because they want the calculus credit for college, but they're not the kind of kid who could go to a college calculus class and meet with success. I want them to get a love not of mathematics, just knowledge, just learning. I want them to always remember how anything was possible. 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The Holy Roller Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Sounds like she is doing what she has to do. What a shame that someone who appears to be teaching something she loves and has the ability to teach well is being forced to leave the profession because of her finances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Moving from one vocation to another in pursuit of higher compensation isn't a crime. It's not a cause worthy of martyrdom for people to stay in lower-paying jobs they really enjoy, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Sounds like she is doing what she has to do. What a shame that someone who appears to be teaching something she loves and has the ability to teach well is being forced to leave the profession because of her finances. If I understand the article correctly this 47 year old woman with an expected work life of another 18 years intends to sacrifice some of that short window of time, presumably two years, to obtain a degree in a field somewhat, but not substantially more lucrative, than her current field, one she loves. Sounds like she is not really thinking this thing through, but it makes a nice story. Edited July 22, 2011 by Ditkaless Wonders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Moving from one vocation to another in pursuit of higher compensation isn't a crime. No, the crime is that the wage scale for a profession I deem as important as any other to the strength of our society and its future gets paid a little more than than a circus elephant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I wonder if she has considered teaching in a school system that compensates teachers better, or has considered applying to higher paying private schools. As clearly exceptional as she is, accoding to the article, she would have no problem finding better employment in the field she loves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) No, the crime is that the wage scale for a profession I deem as important as any other to the strength of our society and its future gets paid a little more than than a circus elephant. Wrong. The average per hour wage for a teacher versus the average per hour wage of a person with a bachelors is quite high. Throw in benefits and they're doing quite well comparatively. Now, if you want tot ascribe a higher value to the work they do than the average person with a bachelors degree you may do so but need to determine what profession to equate it to. Should they make the same as an engineer, architect, lawyer, doctor? If you read the McKinsey & Co. report that they point to in the posted article you will find some interesting "facts" with regard to the qualifications of our teachers here versus those in the top performing countries (ours are woefully underqualified in comparisson.) But, we don't need to rehash that argument here. Edited July 22, 2011 by SEC=UGA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 5 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users) 3 Members: SEC=UGA, caddyman, DMD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) If you read the McKinsey & Co. report that they point to in the posted article you will find some interesting "facts" with regard to the qualifications of our teachers here versus those in the top performing countries (ours are woefully underqualified in comparisson.) Sorry ... no link for this ... and I didn't read the McKinsey report ... but, I am pretty sure that I'm correct w/ the following info and thought it was an interesting rider to SEC's comment above: The average GRE score for all students applying for all masters' programs requiring a GRE is lowest among students with undergraduate majors in "elementary education", "secondary education" and "education administration" majors. IOW, of all prospective masters-level graduate students, the least intelligent ones are the ones who are going be teaching our kids. Edited July 22, 2011 by muck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Sorry ... no link for this ... and I didn't read the McKinsey report ... but, I am pretty sure that I'm correct w/ the following info and thought it was an interesting rider to SEC's comment above: The average GRE score for all students applying for all masters' programs requiring a GRE is lowest among students with undergraduate majors in "elementary education", "secondary education" and "education administration" majors. IOW, of all prospective masters-level graduate students, the least intelligent ones are the ones who are going be teaching our kids. McKinsey's report Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 According to McKinsey's report: The US attracts most of its teachers from the bottom 2/3 of college classes, with nearly half coming from the bottom 1/3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) IOW, of all prospective masters-level graduate students, the least intelligent ones are the ones who are going be teaching our kids. Um........isn't this a circular argument? Edited July 22, 2011 by Ursa Majoris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsfan Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 According to McKinsey's report:The US attracts most of its teachers from the bottom 2/3 of college classes, with nearly half coming from the bottom 1/3. Is it surprising that people with lower scores take jobs with lower salaries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Is it surprising that people with lower scores take jobs with lower salaries? And is it surprising that jobs with low pay don't attract people with high scores? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 On a more macro scale, it's been evident for years that, very generally, the value of a person to society as a whole is inversely proportional to their compensation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 And is it surprising that jobs with low pay don't attract people with high scores? Please illustrate to me how the teaching profession is "low paid". TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I'm willing to bet that her divorce 2 years ago has more to do with her financial problems than anything else. Divorce can set people back for many many years, and usually requires that each person cut back on their expectations regarding their living conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I wonder if she ... has considered applying to higher paying private schools. Here is a list of private schools in Brevard County, FL. Which of these schools do you think pays teachers more than $40,000? http://www.floridasmart.com/local/counties...ion_private.htm My strong expectation would be none of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Please illustrate to me how the teaching profession is "low paid".TIA low paid relative to other professional professions would be fairly accurate http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp College Degree....Starting Pay....Mid-career Pay Petroleum Engineering 97900 155000 Chemical Engineering 64500 109000 Electrical Engineering (EE) 61300 103000 Materials Science & Engineering 60400 103000 Aerospace Engineering 60700 102000 Computer Engineering (CE) 61800 101000 Physics 49800 101000 Applied Mathematics 52600 98600 Computer Science (CS) 56600 97900 Nuclear Engineering 65100 97800 Biomedical Engineering (BME) 53800 97800 Economics 47300 94700 Mechanical Engineering (ME) 58400 94500 Statistics 49000 93800 Industrial Engineering (IE) 57400 93100 Civil Engineering (CE) 53100 90200 Mathematics 47000 89900 Environmental Engineering 51700 88600 Management Information Systems (MIS) 51000 88200 Software Engineering 54900 87800 Finance 46500 87300 Government 41400 87300 Construction Management 50200 85200 Supply Chain Management 50200 84700 Biochemistry (BCH) 41700 84700 Industrial Design (ID) 44400 84400 Electrical Engineering Technology (EET) 55100 84300 Food Science 43300 83700 International Business 41600 83700 Civil Engineering Technology (CET) 46600 83300 Geology 45300 83300 Computer Information Systems (CIS) 47900 83100 Mechanical Engineering Technology (MET) 51600 81200 Molecular Biology 40500 81200 Chemistry 42000 80900 Film Production 41600 80700 Political Science (PolySci) 39900 80100 Biotechnology 40800 79900 International Relations 40500 79400 Occupational Health and Safety 46400 79000 American Studies 43400 78600 Information Technology (IT) 48300 78500 Industrial Technology (IT) 48100 78400 Information Systems (IS) 48300 78100 Telecommunications 37300 78100 Urban Planning 41500 78000 Accounting 44700 75700 Philosophy 39800 75600 Zoology 38000 75200 Advertising 37700 74700 Architecture 41500 74400 Marketing & Communications 38200 73500 Literature 39100 73200 Fashion Design 36300 72400 Global & International Studies 37800 72000 Biology 37900 71900 Environmental Science 40200 71200 Linguistics 39800 70700 Business 41000 70500 Microbiology 38500 70100 Nursing 52700 69300 History 37800 69000 Public Administration 40400 68900 Hotel Management 36100 68700 Forestry 41500 67200 Communications 38000 66900 Landscape Architecture 41900 66700 Geography 39600 66700 Journalism 36100 66400 Health Sciences 35800 66200 English 37100 65800 Public Relations (PR) 35500 65700 French 38400 65500 Sports Management 35400 65100 Liberal Arts 37800 63200 Anthropology 35600 63200 Human Resources (HR) 37900 62600 Organizational Management (OM) 42300 61900 Agriculture 38600 61500 Psychology 35000 61300 Medical Technology 45100 60900 Health Care Administration 36700 60900 Sociology 36100 60500 Radio & Television 35000 60000 Hospitality & Tourism 35900 59500 Visual Communication 35600 59000 Criminal Justice 35300 58900 Fine Arts 35900 58600 Spanish 36400 58400 Interior Design 34300 58200 Humanities 34900 57800 Horticulture 39600 57300 Theater 34700 57300 Music 36800 57200 Graphic Design 35600 56500 Fashion Merchandising 36800 56300 Dietetics 41500 56100 Education 36800 54700 Kinesiology 34200 54600 Photography 32900 54500 Nutrition 38600 54400 Interdisciplinary Studies (IS) 36300 54400 Exercise Science 33100 54400 Social Science 36600 54300 Drama 37800 54200 Multimedia and Web Design 40400 53900 Animal Science 33800 53700 Paralegal/Law 35300 53500 Art History 38300 53300 Art 35300 52400 Theology 35600 52000 Public Health (PH) 35500 51700 Athletic Training 34600 50200 Religious Studies 32900 49700 Recreation & Leisure Studies 34500 49100 Special Education 34300 47800 Culinary Arts 29900 46800 Social Work (SW) 32200 44300 Elementary Education 32400 44000 Child and Family Studies 29600 40500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 The issues that we have with education in this country are quite vexing. A quality educational system is imperative to the well being and future of this country and we should allocate resources and strive to achieve this. However, the manner in which the current system operates is broken and becoming increasingly ineffective. We have one of the highest per capita expenditures per student in the world. We have some of the highest salaries for teachers in the world (yes, I understand that there may be purchasing power discrepancies.) The result of these expenditures are lower test scores and higher drop out rates than many countries in the world. Why is this? I do understand that if you want to recruit better teachers you have to pay better salaries, but you must also raise the bar for those who will qualify to be teachers; a bar that is currently not that high. In order to Josh Gordon out the ineffective teachers you must critically evaluate them, something that currently is not done. Further, you must have a means to sanction teachers, terminate them, something that under our current system is not easily done. The education that teachers go through to gain certification should be rigorous, that is not the case in the U, and "continuing education" or professional development classes should be mandatory. Students and parents also need to uphold their end of the bargain, as well. Students should be held accountable for the inattentiveness and transgressions while at school. Also, students should be placed in classes of their peers rather than lumped together and all taught at an obscenely low level so that the morons and slackers can keep up. Many changes, both institutional and cultural, need to be affected in order to repair our educationa system in this country. Seemingly, no one is willing to make a concerted effort in this arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Here is a list of private schools in Brevard County, FL. Which of these schools do you think pays teachers more than $40,000? http://www.floridasmart.com/local/counties...ion_private.htm My strong expectation would be none of them. I concur w/ Wiege's expectation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) low paid relative to other professional professions would be fairly accurate http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp College Degree....Starting Pay....Mid-career Pay Petroleum Engineering 97900 155000 Chemical Engineering 64500 109000 Electrical Engineering (EE) 61300 103000 Materials Science & Engineering 60400 103000 So, which profession do you want to pay them similarly to? Also, this breaks it out into the entire pool of teachers and Bachelors degree holders and is realistic. According to the BLS Median weekly earning for 2010 for those w. a Bachelors Degree was $1,038 ($53,976 per year) According to the BLS the median annual income for Secondary School Teachers in 2010 was $53,230 per year. According to the BLS the median annual income for Middle School Teachers in 2010 was $51,960. According to the BLS the median annual income for Elementary School Teachers in 2010 was $51,660. If we average the three Median salaries for teachers (no, I'm not going to break it down by proportion of teachers at each level) The median salary in 2010 for teachers was $52,283. Teachers work +/- 190 days per year and from what I gather from reading articles online, work roughly 38 hours per week. This works out to be roughly 1,444 hours of work. Let's say the average person with a bachelors degree works 48 weeks at 40 hours per week. This works out to be 1,920 hours of work. Hourly rate for teachers - $36.21 Hourly rate for Bachelors Degree holders - $28.11 While in total dollars those with a Bachelors degree, on average, do make more than a teacher annually, a whopping $1,692, teachers for hours worked make $8.10 more per hour than those who hold a Bachelors Degree. Further, they receive benefits that most in the private sector do not and they have the entirety of the summer off. In conclusion, teachers need to stop complaining about their pay. Edited July 22, 2011 by SEC=UGA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsfan Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Please illustrate to me how the teaching profession is "low paid".TIA I am an engineer making 6x what my wife makes as a teacher. Her job is significantly more difficult than mine. I cannot imagine trying to teach anything to 20+ 4 and 5 year-olds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsfan Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 According to the BLS the median annual income for Elementary School Teachers in 2010 was $51,660. I do not know where these numbers come from, but my wife is the highest paid kindergarten teacher at her school and she makes nowhere near $50k. I wish she did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) I am an engineer making 6x what my wife makes as a teacher. Her job is significantly more difficult than mine. I cannot imagine trying to teach anything to 20+ 4 and 5 year-olds. Since you make somewhere between $210 and $324K your wife should really have no room for complaints since she is obviously doing it out of love for her profession as her income is probably merely used to support extravagance. Yes, I'm being a smartass. Edited July 22, 2011 by SEC=UGA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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