Sieg Heil!

[BeeR]

2) You have to overplay the us vs them part of politics and ignore it in the church. Again, despite the massive body of evidence that supports a ton of us vs them situation in the church. Maybe not in faith. Maybe not even in religion, but in the church as it is portrayed by man. Politics shouldn't be what it's become, where everyone is digging their heels and shouting insults at one another, but by and large it has. But the church shouldn't either and it very much has as well. And we see it every day.

? What is "the church?" Extremist nuts aside, I don't see any church "digging their heels and shouting insults at one another."

 

 

But one thing that can't be denied is that, if you truly believe in your religion, you have to believe the stories. That much I got from Savage Beatings. I asked him straight up if you could be a good Christian if you simply agreed with the morality and yet just assumed that the stories were fables invented to get the point across. He said, flat out, "no". If you're a Christian, you believe all that happened.

And Savage Beatings is the ultimate authority on Christianity because....

 

Not only are there those of us who are actually opposed to religion in general. There are even more who are opposed to the specific teachings of any number of specific religions even if they believe in another. In other words, it's basically the same as political parties.

No it isn't. As Az has tried to explain to an extent, religon and politics are two very different things. Just because they share some very broad characteristics doesn't mean they're the same. Kinda like saying steak is a food that tastes good and pizza is a food that tastes good, so they're the same. They aren't. Neither are politics and religion just because they are about ideological beliefs.

 

As for the camp thing, I think we do agree that in either case it's a question of how it's implemented. But they are not the same, either inherently or (realistically) in practice. Not saying one is better or worse per se, just not the same.

Edited July 28, 2011 by BeeR

[delusions of grandeur]

 

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking even attempting to answer your asinine question. Next time I'll just let you go on wondering why there's an issue with comparing mass-murder victims to Hitler.

 

[detlef]

? What is "the church?" Extremist nuts aside, I don't see any church "digging their heels and shouting insults at one another."

 

 

And Savage Beatings is the ultimate authority on Christianity because....

 

No it isn't. As Az has tried to explain to an extent, religon and politics are two very different things. Just because they share some very broad characteristics doesn't mean they're the same. Kinda like saying steak is a food that tastes good and pizza is a food that tastes good, so they're the same. They aren't. Neither are politics and religion just because they are about ideological beliefs.

 

As for the camp thing, I think we do agree that in either case it's a question of how it's implemented. But they are not the same, either inherently or (realistically) in practice. Not saying one is better or worse per se, just not the same.

1) Do I need to dig up the Norway thread where the first or second reply was someone mockingly saying we shouldn't rush to judge Islam on because they're so peaceful. Is that not lobbing an insult at Islam? If people who are bit quick to trash Islam count as "extremist nuts", then there are a lot of extremist nuts out there. Think of how many "accuse" Obama of being Muslim. As if to imply that is a bad thing. By doing that, you are lobbing insults at another religion. And it happens far too often in the main-stream for you guys to write that off as the rants of some fringe loony.

 

2) I'm going to go ahead and assume that a guy who was actually training in the priesthood has a pretty good grasp on the situation. More importantly, are you saying that is not the case? Are you actually a Christian if you just happen to agree with the moral teachings but really think the stories are just fables to get a point across?

 

And, honestly, your argument about how different the church is from politics relies heavily on Savage being true. Because, if it is really just a bunch of people who agree on how to act and just use nice stories to get the point across, then it is no different than a group of people coming together and writing a constitution. Because, if it's what you seem to be saying it is, it's entirely an invention of man. But, rather than simply saying, "you're not allowed to kill each other" they weave some fable explaining why killing each other is a bad thing.

 

3) You lack perspective to make those statements because you're on the inside. If you had a gambling problem that was ruining your life, and those close to you equated it to a drug addiction, sure, you could come up with all kinds of reasons why it's totally not the same thing. But, to those on the outside, looking at the net result, we could see that the distinction is pointless and convenient because, either way, you're ruining your life. That is not to at all compare religion and addiction at all. But rather to illustrate that "if it walks like a duck..." And organized religion walks like a duck.

 

Like a political entity, there is a specific core set of beliefs. Like a political entity, there is energy spent trying to spread the scope of influence. Like a political entity, disagreement over religion has spawned plenty of major conflict in this world. Like a political entity, there is a power structure. Shall I go on? How many very significant ways in which they look and smell exactly alike do we need to ignore?

 

And, again, the headquarters of the Catholic Church is recognized as a sovereign state. And in the middle east, countries are literally run by clerics of the church. So, in some very major cases, not some random cult in the middle of nowhere. The line between church and politics is, quite intentionally non-existent.

 

The strangest thing is, you see the above as an attack on the church. By comparing the bible to the constitution? One of the most revered documents in history? Honestly?

[bpwallace49]

I didn't think of Adolf Hitler...I thought of Darth Vader.

 

I want to force choke the piss outta this thread at this point . . . "Your lack of faith is disturbing . . ."

[Azazello1313]

blah blah blah blah blah

 

I cannot conceive of a partisan political message that I think would be appropriate to teach children in a camp or a school or any other sort of environment like that. I can think of plenty of religious messages that I think are appropriate to teach children. as one example, there's this book I read my three year-old daughter before bed-time sometimes called "prayer for a child", the text of which goes:

bless this milk and bless this bread

bless this soft and waiting bed

where I presently shall be

wrapped in sweet security

through the darkness, through the night

let no danger come to fright

my sleep til morning once again

beckons at the window pane

bless the toys whose shapes I know

the shoes that take me to and fro

up and down and everywhere

bless my little painted chair

bless the lamplight, bless the fire

bless the hands that never tire

in their loving care of me

bless my friends and family

bless my father and my mother

and keep us close to one another

bless other children far and near

keep them safe, and free from fear

so let me sleep and let me wake

in peace and health for Jesus' sake

amen.

I do not feel I am force-feeding my daughter any ideology when I read her this poem. it is a message of inclusion, of concern toward others, and of thanksgiving -- the kind of thing children SHOULD be taught. if it were some kind of bedtime story published by the republican party, I am certain the content would not be something I'd feel comfortable promoting (a gay immigrant hiding in the closet?) -- it would be partisan and divisive by definition, even if it were fluffed over in cute language and imagery, and reading it to her WOULD be an attempt to indoctrinate.

 

in my opinion, this once again boils down to a fundamental misapprehension on your part about what religion is and why people seek it out. you really seem to think you know, which is why I mocked your persistent confidence in discussing other peoples' faith, when your cluelessness on that subject is so obviously on display. you'd do well to just accept your ignorance as to where peoples' true motivations lie in this arena.

 

church/religion and state/politics are not the same. maybe they are in one little tiny corner of rome that you seem to think is dispositive proof that such is the case everywhere. you mentioned the bible and the constitution. well, both contain clear statements that the two realms of church and state are completely different, separate, and both clearly warn of the dangers inherent when you conflate the two in any way. when theocrats try to overstep that divide coming from church into the state, they do violence to the constitution. when partisans try and bring those concerns into the faith, they basically commit heresy.

[Grimm74]

Beck is a bit of a tool and obviously didn't show much sensitivity to that matter, but I have to admit that when I heard that it was a political youth camp that got shot up, "Hitler Youth" was the exact very first thing that came to my mind.

 

political youth camp and Hitler youth was something I thought of as well. It was in very poor judgment to use the comparison at this point in time, but I can guarantee it is being in some shape taken out of context or the point is being misunderstood to SOME degree. I know that is impossible to the left. I would like to see what the worlds political youth camps are up to though. Children are very impressionable and I would hope taking this into consideration a political camp isn't promoting one ideology over the other instead getting an understanding of the overall political world. I know some may blast me but I do not think kids even 18 year olds have a great understand or appreciation of how things are in the real world. Crap a lot of adults don't.

 

For the Labor Party to have a youth camp.....seems a bit strange and indoctrination. I would say the same for a conservative camp.

[SEC=UGA]

political youth camp and Hitler youth was something I thought of as well. It was in very poor judgment to use the comparison at this point in time, but I can guarantee it is being in some shape taken out of context or the point is being misunderstood to SOME degree. I know that is impossible to the left. I would like to see what the worlds political youth camps are up to though. Children are very impressionable and I would hope taking this into consideration a political camp isn't promoting one ideology over the other instead getting an understanding of the overall political world. I know some may blast me but I do not think kids even 18 year olds have a great understand or appreciation of how things are in the real world. Crap a lot of adults don't.

 

For the Labor Party to have a youth camp.....seems a bit strange and indoctrination. I would say the same for a conservative camp.

 

Many countries throughout the world have politically sponsored youth camps. I guess we could compare ALL of them to Nazi youth camps if we really wanted to. THough, the leftist governments (especially the old Eastern Bloc Countries) loved these things a great deal more than right leaning governments, it seems.

[Azazello1313]

THough, the leftist governments (especially the old Eastern Bloc Countries) loved these things a great deal more than right leaning governments, it seems.

 

probably more accurate to say the statist/authoritarian governments like them, while the more civil libertarian governments are wary.

[WaterMan]

Doesn't Beck compare EVERYTHING to Hitler at some point?

 

Beck must have posters of Hitler up in his office.

[Duchess Jack]

I am a practicing Christian and can see how a "Church Camp" might be a problem. Its all about who is running it and what they are teaching. Is it the Westboro Baptists? Is it the Pray-Away-The-Gay Camp? Is it the Warren Jeffs Camp? Is BeeR running it? I know if I had a Mulism camp down the road from me, it might make me nervous, but then I feel a little bad for what happened to Juan Williams.

[Azazello1313]

I am a practicing Christian and can see how a "Church Camp" might be a problem.

 

me too. a church camp might be a problem, might not. a poltical party camp, as I see it, is almost certainly a problem.

[SEC=UGA]

probably more accurate to say the statist/authoritarian governments like them, while the more civil libertarian governments are wary.

 

I'm pretty certain that a number of western european nations have these camps as well. It is just something that is foreign to us.

[detlef]

Azz, there you go again, making convenient examples.

 

1) You're daughter is pretty young, correct? So, yes, it's likely too early to expose her to politics. Then again, it is likely too early to expose her to many of the more dogmatic elements of religion. But by the time she's a teen, she'll be ready for Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies, Brave New World, very political things. Just like she may be ready for some of the more intense lessons in the bible.

 

2) I see you've made a point of cherry-picking the very purest of religion and then using as divisive an example of politics as you can find. Could you not find a story that preaches some of the core values that drew you to your political party? Were you drawn to the GOP because you admired what they stood for? Or were you drawn to it because you hate liberals? Can you think of no redeeming values that your party represents other than it's not as lame as being a democrat? Surely you could find a story about a kid who manages to achieve something without much help from anyone. Would that not be kid-appropriate story that is in line with your political beliefs? If you walked in on a teacher telling your young child such a story, would you rip her out of that class because it seemed too in-line with values that the GOP connects itself with? And how would you feel if you walked in on a teacher talking to your young daughter and ending up with, "...and that's why the bible says homosexuality is a sin."

Edited July 28, 2011 by detlef

[Clubfoothead]

A political camp might be a problem, it might not. A religious camp, as I see it, is almost certainly a problem.

 

Creepy or not, there's no reason to rationalize the slaughter of 70+ people at either.

[Duchess Jack]

Beck must have posters of Hitler up in his office.

I call my diet Allah. Makes me feel like Morgan Freeman when I say "Allah forbids it"

[SEC=UGA]

Azz, there you go again, making convenient examples.

 

1) You're daughter is pretty young, correct? So, yes, it's likely too early to expose her to politics. Then again, it is likely too early to expose her to many of the more dogmatic elements of religion. But by the time she's a teen, she'll be ready for Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies, Brave New World, very political things. Just like she may be ready for some of the more intense lessons in the bible.

 

2) I see you've made a point of cherry-picking the very purest of religion and then using as divisive an example of politics as you can find. Could you not find a story that preaches some of the core values that drew you to your political party? Were you drawn to the GOP because you admired what they stood for? Or were you drawn to it because you hate liberals? Can you think of no redeeming values that your party represents other than it's not as lame as being a democrat? Surely you could find a story about a kid who manages to achieve something without much help from anyone. Would that not be kid-appropriate story that is in line with your political beliefs? If you walked in on a teacher telling your young child such a story, would you rip her out of that class because it seemed too in-line with values that the GOP connects itself with?

 

There is nothing lame about being a democrat. I think it would be cool to be a dreadlock wearing, pachuli smelling, dope smoking, prius driving, hairy woman humping, tiedye wearing, reggae listening, tree hugging, wilderness hiking, illegal immigrant loving, english degree holding, world peace loving, Pelosi smooching, military hating, commie loving, government dependent, condescending prick... but something in me just won't allow me to go there.

[Duchess Jack]

There is nothing lame about being a democrat. I think it would be cool to be a dreadlock wearing, pachuli smelling, dope smoking, prius driving, hairy woman humping, tiedye wearing, reggae listening, tree hugging, wilderness hiking, illegal immigrant loving, english degree holding, world peace loving,

 

I'll sign up. She's got to have shaved legs and hardwood floors though.

[BeeR]

1) Do I need to dig up the Norway thread where the first or second reply was someone mockingly saying we shouldn't rush to judge Islam on because they're so peaceful. Is that not lobbing an insult at Islam?

Again you use this "here's one case - therefore it's all cases, everywhere, all the time." I would hope the flawed logic there is obvious.

 

2) I'm going to go ahead and assume that a guy who was actually training in the priesthood has a pretty good grasp on the situation.

And again. He may, he may not. Even if so, it - at MOST - makes him correct regarding his denomination only.

 

Once more: what do you mean by "the church?" You still haven't answered.

 

Are you actually a Christian if you just happen to agree with the moral teachings but really think the stories are just fables to get a point across?

This is another example of how incredibly lacking your knowledge of Christianty is. There is no pat answer that all Christians agree on here, to say the least. It's safe to say most if not all denominations believe at least some of the "stories" are actual historical events (esp key ones obviously, eg Christ's birth and crucifixion), and some believe all of them are. So the answer to your question depends on who you're talking to.

 

And, honestly, your argument about how different the church is from politics relies heavily on Savage being true.

No, not really.

 

3) You lack perspective to make those statements because you're on the inside.

Hardly. It is you that lacks perspective as you demonstrate by clinging to tired atheist cliches and myths about Christianity/religion while using invalid analogies and flawed logic to knock it down.

 

The strangest thing is, you see the above as an attack on the church. By comparing the bible to the constitution? One of the most revered documents in history? Honestly?

? I have no idea where you got that I consider comparing the Bible to the constitution "as an attack on the church."

 

Can we simply agree that camps should mostly be about playing games and eating hamburgers and such and move on?

Edited July 28, 2011 by BeeR

[Azazello1313]

Azz, there you go again, making convenient examples.

 

1) You're daughter is pretty young, correct? So, yes, it's likely too early to expose her to politics. Then again, it is likely too early to expose her to many of the more dogmatic elements of religion. But by the time she's a teen, she'll be ready for Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies, Brave New World, very political things. Just like she may be ready for some of the more intense lessons in the bible.

 

2) I see you've made a point of cherry-picking the very purest of religion and then using as divisive an example of politics as you can find. Could you not find a story that preaches some of the core values that drew you to your political party? Were you drawn to the GOP because you admired what they stood for? Or were you drawn to it because you hate liberals? Can you think of no redeeming values that your party represents other than it's not as lame as being a democrat? Surely you could find a story about a kid who manages to achieve something without much help from anyone. Would that not be kid-appropriate story that is in line with your political beliefs? If you walked in on a teacher telling your young child such a story, would you rip her out of that class because it seemed too in-line with values that the GOP connects itself with?

 

I can think of stories that maybe emphasize the kinds of things that led me to my current political beliefs, sure, and most of them are fine to teach to kids IMO. but if it comes directly from a political party, then I know it is just partisan propaganda.

 

think of it another way. I am fine with something that teaches kids patriotism. I am not OK with something that teaches kids patriotism from a GOP perspective. it is like if, within a church, there were two factions which arose only in reference to each other, say the pro-temperance and anti-temperance factions. now if the pro-temperance faction publishes its own kids book, you can bet it is going to basically be about illustrating why pro-temperance is good and anti-temperance is bad. it is going to be propaganda, because it comes from an organization that defines itself in partisan terms.

 

now of course, the contention on your part would probably be that a religion is also an organization that defines itself in partisan terms, but I think that is clearly inaccurate. there has certainly been much schism and partisanship within religious organizations throughout history and much contention between religions. there is no denying that religion often DOES behave like politics. but it often behaves UNlike politics as well. religion contains much that has nothing to do with taking sides in "political" squabbles.

 

edit:

And how would you feel if you walked in on a teacher talking to your young daughter and ending up with, "...and that's why the bible says homosexuality is a sin."

 

I'd probably be taking my kid out of that school.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Azazello1313

[detlef]

I can think of stories that maybe emphasize the kinds of things that led me to my current political beliefs, sure, and most of them are fine to teach to kids IMO. but if it comes directly from a political party, then I know it is just partisan propaganda.

 

think of it another way. I am fine with something that teaches kids patriotism. I am not OK with something that teaches kids patriotism from a GOP perspective. it is like if, within a church, there were two factions which arose only in reference to each other, say the pro-temperance and anti-temperance factions. now if the pro-temperance faction publishes its own kids book, you can bet it is going to basically be about illustrating why pro-temperance is good and anti-temperance is bad. it is going to be propaganda, because it comes from an organization that defines itself in partisan terms.

 

now of course, the contention on your part would probably be that a religion is also an organization that defines itself in partisan terms, but I think that is clearly inaccurate. there has certainly been much schism and partisanship within religious organizations throughout history and much contention between religions. there is no denying that religion often DOES behave like politics. but it often behaves UNlike politics as well. religion contains much that has nothing to do with taking sides in "political" squabbles.

 

edit:

 

I'd probably be taking my kid out of that school.

OK, think of it this way.

 

Take that prayer you'd read your daughter. With very few changes, that could be a secular poem about purity and love and other good things. It happens to be from the church, but it doesn't have to be. Just like some story about Little Johnny Bootstraps who saves the day while all the adults are standing around bickering about who should do what. That could be some story taught at a GOP summer camp or it could simply be a story about doing what it takes.

 

Now, I get your theory about religion, at its core not being about divisiveness and that it has rather and unfortunately morphed into that. However, my contention would be that it seems to have been that way long enough that I'm rather suspicious of perhaps it somewhat so by design and that, those who cling to the purity of it are actually doing so through some naivety. A charming naivety, but naivety none the less. Because, while I'm not saying there is no god, I don't believe that any of us have any idea what god truly is and, thus, I'm rather certain that citing any divine word is done so to gain control. Even if gaining control, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.

 

So, with that in mind. You'd be cool with the story of Little Johnny Bootstraps, you wouldn't be if it was told to your daughter by some GOP camp leader, because you're not sure what else they're going to try and sell her on. Well, I've seen enough atrocities committed by virtually every church, that, while I'd be cool with someone reading a young child the poem you posted, I'd be concerned if it was read to her by someone who associates with one of these churches. Because, like you with the political camp, I don't know if or when they're going to break out the dogma and start telling the kids what may land them in hell.

 

In other words, even if one is, by design divisive and one has just sort of become that way despite best intentions, there's an undeniably sleazy side to both religion and politics, and so as a rule, a summer camp sponsored by either could be potentially creepy.

 

And, believe me, I wasn't expecting you to answer that last question in any manner other than what you did.

[Dr. Sacrebleu]

I think we are losing focus here: let's remember that what this is all about is that beck is an afront to humanity. For someone to say something that awful, insensitive, cruel, and stupid days after one of the most brutal slayings of late is unforgivable. I have always disliked that charlatan, but this puts him in a whole new category. This rises to the level of those who celebrated in the streets in the middle east after 9/11. I really hope that that man gets his comeuppance.

 

As to the discussion at hand, I think you are all trying to compare disparate things. The hitler youth was a paramilitary organization, not just a political one.

 

I am not a fan of either religious or politics camps, but have no problem with either. Unless they of course become fundamentalist. For every hitler youth, there is a jihad camp or a Jonestown.

 

The victims in Norway were just kids who were interested in doing there civic duty (which by the way is expected of you when you turn 18). For beck to compare these kids to hitler youths is absolutely despicable. I wish there were karmic retribution for people of his Ilk

[Square]

I think we are losing focus here:

Oh dear god is that an understatement. We need a gremlin that shoots himself in the head for threads like this.

[Savage Beatings]

And Savage Beatings is the ultimate authority on Christianity because....

 

Has anyone really tried to imply that I am an ultimate authority on anything? It's a subject I have some familiarity with. Detlef has a great deal of knowledge regarding food. Wiegie has a great deal of knowledge regarding Economics. You seem to have an intimate knowledge of Racism, Bet Welching and General Tooldom. So we all come here to share our strengths. Regarding what Det had asked me about... words have meanings. The meaning of being a Christian is much deeper than simply acting in a certain way. Take it or leave it. No skin off my nose. I actually don't really see how that is even germaine to the topic at hand quite frankly.

[Ursa Majoris]

Azz

 

I see you've made a point of cherry-picking

What? I'm shocked, I tell ye, shocked.

[Ursa Majoris]

The hitler youth was a paramilitary organization, not just a political one.

 

Bingo. I think it's worth pointing out that anyone drawing any Hitler comparison almost certainly has little or no knowledge of the subject.

 

Detlef has a great deal of knowledge regarding food. Wiegie has a great deal of knowledge regarding Economics. You seem to have an intimate knowledge of Racism, Bet Welching and General Tooldom.