Unions are worthless and need to go

[WaterMan]

Maybe, you should look into working for Verizon and raise the bar even higher.

 

I don't plan on moving to Taiwan.

[Azazello1313]

So there is DEFINITELY a place for unions in this world.

 

I honestly don't really see where at this point in time. union membership has been plummeting the last several decades, to where something like 8 or 9 out of every 10 workers is not in a union. in the public sector, where unions are particularly useless and anachronistic, they are essentially bankrupting several states and , in education, virulently protecting a failing status quo. in the private sector, where unions can be at least arguably useful in countering the bargaining leverage of "ruthless" employers, all you see is one group of employees after another REJECTING unionization, and the industries where unions remain strong are for the most part slowly swirling toward the drain.

 

it seems most workers have figured out that they are happier, and everyone is better off working in an environment of cooperation and shared interests with their employer. and most employers have figured out what they need to do if they want talented, productive, motivated workers. that leaves unions with not much to do besides sit on the sidelines and whine, and to try and curry as much political favor as their extorted dues can purchase while their relevance and usefulness continues to wane.

[caddyman]

I honestly don't really see where at this point in time. union membership has been plummeting the last several decades, to where something like 8 or 9 out of every 10 workers is not in a union. in the public sector, where unions are particularly useless and anachronistic, they are essentially bankrupting several states and , in education, virulently protecting a failing status quo. in the private sector, where unions can be at least arguably useful in countering the bargaining leverage of "ruthless" employers, all you see is one group of employees after another REJECTING unionization, and the industries where unions remain strong are for the most part slowly swirling toward the drain.

 

it seems most workers have figured out that they are happier, and everyone is better off working in an environment of cooperation and shared interests with their employer. and most employers have figured out what they need to do if they want talented, productive, motivated workers. that leaves unions with not much to do besides sit on the sidelines and whine, and to try and curry as much political favor as their extorted dues can purchase while their relevance and usefulness continues to wane.

this will all be a non-issue in about 25 years. Most of the old time hard liners will be gone and the new breed has no clue what it really means to be a part of a union. Once that natural transition occurs...unions will be history. Thank god I will have a few years left to enjoy a mostly union free country.

[The Wolf]

this will all be a non-issue in about 25 years. Most of the old time hard liners will be gone and the new breed has no clue what it really means to be a part of a union. Once that natural transition occurs...unions will be history. Thank god I will have a few years left to enjoy a mostly union free country.

 

Maybe then, just maybe, some companies will start bringing jobs back home to this country instead of outsourcing to China, Taiwan, India, etc. We have employment issues in our own back yard and not having to pay someone a fully loaded $250 an hour to make crappy shoes from spammers shoes should help make iteasier for companies to do so.

[westvirginia]

Maybe then, just maybe, some companies will start bringing jobs back home to this country instead of outsourcing to China, Taiwan, India, etc. We have employment issues in our own back yard and not having to pay someone a fully loaded $250 an hour to make crappy shoes from spammers shoes should help make iteasier for companies to do so.

 

And here is the crux. Everything, EVERYTHING any gov't or union does to make labor more expensive REDUCES the number of available jobs in this country.

[Ursa Majoris]

And here is the crux. Everything, EVERYTHING any gov't or union does to make labor more expensive REDUCES the number of available jobs in this country.

You're right. If we cut everyone's wage 25% and gave that money back to the companies, they would use it to create jobs so that all the unemployed weren't unemployed any more. I mean, the only thing stopping companies doing this is that they haven't got any money. No sirree, they aren't sitting on record amounts of cash, no indeed.

 

The sooner the ghost of that fraudulent old bag Ayn Rand gets exorcised from where she's embedded herself nine inches up your butt, the better.

[tazinib1]

And here is the crux. Everything, EVERYTHING any gov't or union does to make labor more expensive REDUCES the number of available jobs in this country.

 

I'm sorry...but in my line of work...tell me how that is viable. Tell me how my 5 yrs of working under SHAM WOW! wage to make the union contacts I've made has not improved my life. I'm sorry man...but until you've walked in my shoes, done the SHAM WOW! labor at $12 an hour for 14hr days, please do not speak of what you do not know. And I'm not singling you out...only quoting you because its convenient.

[tazinib1]

An extemely proud member

 

of IATSE 728

Edited August 9, 2011 by tazinib1

[Ditkaless Wonders]

An extemely proud member

 

of IATSE 728

 

 

You are extremely proud of union membership? Do you mind elaborating on this sense of pride? What is it about membership that gives you pride? Are you active in the union? I would like to hear more, if you would be of a mind to share your thoughts.

 

BTW, I had to google IATSE

Edited August 9, 2011 by Ditkaless Wonders

[tazinib1]

You are extremely proud of union membership? Do you mind elaborating on this sense of pride? What is it about membership that gives you pride? Are you active in the union? I would like to hear more, if you would be of a mind to share your thoughts.

 

BTW, I had to google IATSE

 

Yes I am extremely proud of making the union. If you knew my business (I'm sure Poke can elaborate), you would realize how hard it is to obtain this status. I go from making $12 an hour to $37 an hour with full benifits. Mind you, it cost me $6k to join with $225 quaterlies but its more than worth it. I can now work on any big show....just throwing it out there...Spiderman or X-Men and be paid more in 2 months than what I'd make in a year. My back hurts making it at such an old age (rare for somebody my age to make it btw) but its worth every penny. My medical and dental is paid for my entire life I work........and I make alot of money. Whats not to like? And I'm a proud member of IATSE 728

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Yes I am extremely proud of making the union. If you knew my business (I'm sure Poke can elaborate), you would realize how hard it is to obtain this status. I go from making $12 an hour to $37 an hour with full benifits. Mind you, it cost me $6k to join with $225 quaterlies but its more than worth it. I can now work on any big show....just throwing it out there...Spiderman or X-Men and be paid more in 2 months than what I'd make in a year. My back hurts making it at such an old age (rare for somebody my age to make it btw) but its worth every penny. My medical and dental is paid for my entire life I work........and I make alot of money. Whats not to like? And I'm a proud member of IATSE 728

 

 

So you have to qualify for your union?

 

Maybe I'll just go to your Union's website and do some reading.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Ditkaless Wonders

[bpwallace49]

I think people are more upset about union abuses Instead of unions themselves. No one likes abuses of the system. that doesn't make every union evil.

[tazinib1]

So you have to qualify for your union?

 

Maybe I'll just go to your Union's website and do some reading.

 

 

Please do so. I welcome it.

Edited August 9, 2011 by tazinib1

[Kid Cid]

A company wanting to make money is "Greed" and employee shutting down a company'd operations over a dispute regarding money is noble? That seems to be the implication in your post.

 

It's called an adversarial realtionship, the relationship between the unions and employers. They aren't partners, they are enemies. The union creates this atmosphere and it leads to inefficiency and mistrust.

 

This is an extremely uninformed and highly untenable position that you've staked out for yourself here. It always takes two to tango. Have you ever heard about companies hiring Pinkerton security to not just secure company property, but to intimidate, humiliate, threaten and cause bodily harm to union organizers or sympathizers? The adversarial relationship was created from the very beginning and it literally was a fight to gain any control for the working man or woman. However, that does not mean that mentality should remain today.

 

And no, I do not believe that shutting down a company for money is necessarily noble. Most strikes are completely avoidable by both the union and the management. My point is that often unions do not have well educated or intelligent leadership and that they are led down a bad road. Conversely, management often has very well educated and intelligent leadership that still leads them down a bad road. Unions and management need to work together, have more effective communication outside of the bargaining process and not make money the end all and be all of the negotiations.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Please do so. I welcome it.

 

 

I spent some time there. Learned a thing or two about some industry terms.

 

I also visited the Site for the headquarters prior to checking out your Locals Site.

[cliaz]

I think people are more upset about union abuses Instead of unions themselves. No one likes abuses of the system. that doesn't make every union evil.

 

 

This.

 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. They call it labor negotiations but there is no negotiations going on.

[tazinib1]

I spent some time there. Learned a thing or two about some industry terms.

 

I also visited the Site for the headquarters prior to checking out your Locals Site.

 

 

I wish half the huddlers here were as open minded as you.

[Big Country]

And here is the crux. Everything, EVERYTHING any gov't or union does to make labor more expensive REDUCES the number of available jobs in this country.

 

 

You're right. If we cut everyone's wage 25% and gave that money back to the companies, they would use it to create jobs so that all the unemployed weren't unemployed any more. I mean, the only thing stopping companies doing this is that they haven't got any money. No sirree, they aren't sitting on record amounts of cash, no indeed.

 

The sooner the ghost of that fraudulent old bag Ayn Rand gets exorcised from where she's embedded herself nine inches up your butt, the better.

 

 

Ursa -

 

I may be wrong, but I think that what WV was trying to get at is that if, as you say, wages were cut 25%, then labor that is currently outsourced to obtain the 25% cut in costs would be brought back onshore, creating more jobs locally rather than giving them to China, India, etc. So, it;s not really giving the company a break, it would essentially keep their labor spending the same (ie, no more money going to their pockets), but shift it from being spent in a foreign country to being spent employing American workers.

 

More simply,he seems to be stating that the greater the cost of labor locally compared to the cost of the same labor in a foreign country, the more the labor spending will shift to the foreign country.

[Big Country]

Yes I am extremely proud of making the union. If you knew my business (I'm sure Poke can elaborate), you would realize how hard it is to obtain this status. I go from making $12 an hour to $37 an hour with full benifits. Mind you, it cost me $6k to join with $225 quaterlies but its more than worth it. I can now work on any big show....just throwing it out there...Spiderman or X-Men and be paid more in 2 months than what I'd make in a year. My back hurts making it at such an old age (rare for somebody my age to make it btw) but its worth every penny. My medical and dental is paid for my entire life I work........and I make alot of money. Whats not to like? And I'm a proud member of IATSE 728

 

 

Out of curiosity, what do you do now for $37 an hour plus full benefits that you didn't do for $12 hour? Serious question, as it seems like a major disparity if the work being done is the same.

[westvirginia]

Ursa -

 

I may be wrong, but I think that what WV was trying to get at is that if, as you say, wages were cut 25%, then labor that is currently outsourced to obtain the 25% cut in costs would be brought back onshore, creating more jobs locally rather than giving them to China, India, etc. So, it;s not really giving the company a break, it would essentially keep their labor spending the same (ie, no more money going to their pockets), but shift it from being spent in a foreign country to being spent employing American workers.

 

More simply,he seems to be stating that the greater the cost of labor locally compared to the cost of the same labor in a foreign country, the more the labor spending will shift to the foreign country.

 

 

That's exactly what I'm saying, thank you. And for the record, I might actually like Taz's union. There are some that I've said I support, like the IEBW, Plumbers & Pipefitters, Millwrights, etc. Those unions ensure their members know what they're doing, and serve a purpose almost like a temp agency.

[tazinib1]

Out of curiosity, what do you do now for $37 an hour plus full benefits that you didn't do for $12 hour? Serious question, as it seems like a major disparity if the work being done is the same.

 

It is the same. In fact, it gets even easier when you are on a union gig. I do lighting for movie/television..thought you knew that. On a union gig (not all but a majority, depending on budget) the electric crew is almost triple that of what independent movie has. And yes it is a major disparity. It takes the average crew member 5 years to gain the contacts/experience to make union. Some do it faster, others longer. I did it in 3 (worked 2 years as a Production Assistant..so technically 5 but only 3 in my specialty). Until then, you work on low budget independent movies/pilots/commercials/music videos etc etc. where you are making $150 a day on average. Working with maybe 3 guys in your department. You pay your dues to get that opportunity to work on a union show, get your 30 days needed to qualify for whatever union you are going into, pay your HUGH union dues to officially join (mine was $6k) and you get the pleasure of tripling what you made previously. With full ride benefits and retirement package to boot. Its everyone's goal that starts out in this business to make union. There are a few, however, that love the independent circuit and will never go union. I love the independent circuit as well, but I also like to pay my bills, eat and pay for hookers...errrrr..wait.

Edited August 9, 2011 by tazinib1

[tazinib1]

Those unions ensure their members know what they're doing, and serve a purpose almost like a temp agency.

 

Not only do they ensure what we are doing through classes, its required that you attend safety classes, are compliant with OSHA standards and pass all tests regarding heavy equipment operation. Its not just about striking a light on a movie set at this point. Oh..those classes are paid btw

[Ursa Majoris]

Ursa -

 

I may be wrong, but I think that what WV was trying to get at is that if, as you say, wages were cut 25%, then labor that is currently outsourced to obtain the 25% cut in costs would be brought back onshore, creating more jobs locally rather than giving them to China, India, etc. So, it;s not really giving the company a break, it would essentially keep their labor spending the same (ie, no more money going to their pockets), but shift it from being spent in a foreign country to being spent employing American workers.

 

More simply,he seems to be stating that the greater the cost of labor locally compared to the cost of the same labor in a foreign country, the more the labor spending will shift to the foreign country.

Clearly that is what he is saying. However, given that the US economy is 70-75% consumer driven, it is not clear to me how exactly consumers minus 25% of their income are going to consume.

 

That's exactly what I'm saying, thank you.

So, pay cuts for all workers so that we can regain full employment, is that it? And at the same time, we can all live in slums and camps like the Indian and Chinese workers while we're about it.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I wish half the huddlers here were as open minded as you.

 

 

I'm still processing the information. My mind may be closed on this, though it is hard to ignore the fact that for you Union membership seems to have paid off with a tripling of salary and increased benefits while apparently not driving the industry wholly, or perhaps even mostly, from the country.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

It is the same. In fact, it gets even easier when you are on a union gig. I do lighting for movie/television..thought you knew that. On a union gig (not all but a majority, depending on budget) the electric crew is almost triple that of what independent movie has. And yes it is a major disparity. It takes the average crew member 5 years to gain the contacts/experience to make union. Some do it faster, others longer. I did it in 3 (worked 2 years as a Production Assistant..so technically 5 but only 3 in my specialty). Until then, you work on low budget independent movies/pilots/commercials/music videos etc etc. where you are making $150 a day on average. Working with maybe 3 guys in your department. You pay your dues to get that opportunity to work on a union show, get your 30 days needed to qualify for whatever union you are going into, pay your HUGH union dues to officially join (mine was $6k) and you get the pleasure of tripling what you made previously. With full ride benefits and retirement package to boot. Its everyone's goal that starts out in this business to make union. There are a few, however, that love the independent circuit and will never go union. I love the independent circuit as well, but I also like to pay my bills, eat and pay for hookers...errrrr..wait.

 

 

Just wait until those hookers unionize. Higher costs, better working conditions for them, but not so good for us as they try to hang on untill an age where they can get a full pension. Yuck.