detlef Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 TOP also takes real time off the play clock while incomplete passes don't. Shortens the game in your favor. HUGH advantage Of course, but they're only treading water in the TOP battle despite employing an offense, one of whose major advantages is to shorten the game in your favor. So, sure, if they're running the hell out of the ball, and as a result are winning the TOP battle, so be it. But they're not. At least they're not heading into the 4th. And that was the point. Having a fresh D going into the 4th is huge (and I agree). So considering that they're not winning that battle and yet running more seconds off the clock per play, then their D is getting less real time rest than the opposition's. Because, they are likely running less plays total. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Det, just curious but where are you getting your TOP numbers? fwiw these are the TOPs for Den since Tebow took over Mia 34:17:00 Time of Possession by Quarter/game total Visitor(Den) 8:11 7:56 5:22 9:05 3:43 34:17 Home (Mia) 6:49 7:04 9:38 5:55 3:53 33:19 Det 30:26:00 Time of Possession by Quarter/game total Visitor (Det) 7:34 10:26 6:54 4:40 29:34 Home (Den) 7:26 4:34 8:06 10:20 30:26 Oak 31:51:00 Time of Possession by Quarter/game total Visitor (Den) 6:54 9:07 8:08 7:42 31:51 Home(Oak) 8:06 5:53 6:52 7:18 28:09 KC 33:38:00 Time of Possession by Quarter/game total Visitor (Den) 8:07 8:29 9:12 7:50 33:38 Home(KC) 6:53 6:31 5:48 7:10 26:22 NYJ 27:48:00 Time of Possession by Quarter/game total Visitor(NYJ) 6:09 9:48 8:11 8:04 32:12 Home (Den) 8:51 5:12 6:49 6:56 27:48 Edited November 28, 2011 by keggerz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Det, just curious but where are you getting your TOP numbers? Your miami numbera include ot. Also you said rested going into the fourth so I backed out 4th quarter top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Tebow will quit football next year, (he probably won't have a starting gig anyway) and join the peace corps. It is his true calling in life. Jesus told me so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 A lot of this thread is about Football performance, which it should be. You also have to consider the business aspect of Tebow for denver. He is a red hot commodity in the NFL right now. Would we really be talking about Denver this much for this long if it wasnt for him ? He is a goldmine for the Broncos. Also, if they shelve him can you imagine the pressure on whoever takes over, especially if they replace him with a young unproven qb ? Elways hooves are really tied here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Your miami numbera include ot. Also you said rested going into the fourth so I backed out 4th quarter top. was just curious where you got them from...like I said, I hadn't looked at it in depth at all...just an assumption. edit: rested going into the 4th or rested in the 4th...pretty much the same thing...their D is rested when it matters most, when they need a stop at the end of the game or need to get after the QB etc....note that they did win TOP in 4th quarter in 4 of those 5 games, just as they did yesterday Edited November 28, 2011 by keggerz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 was just curious where you got them from...like I said, I hadn't looked at it in depth at all...just an assumption. edit: rested going into the 4th or rested in the 4th...pretty much the same thing...their D is rested when it matters most, when they need a stop at the end of the game or need to get after the QB etc....note that they did win TOP in 4th quarter in 4 of those 5 games, just as they did yesterday Not exactly, so much of the argument about how the running game helps the D has to assume the offense is making the D's job easier. All game long. But that's really only the case in the KC and Oakland game. In the Miami game, where they barely won the TOP battle, they possessed the ball the last five minutes of the game, in part due to recovering an on-side kick. So, despite the fact that they run the ball so much, and thus eat up more clock per play than a team that throws it, their D was still out on the field, keeping them close, with almost no help from the offense for 55 minutes. Same with the Jets game, and same with yesterday (to a lesser extent). There are three wins where the offense did nothing for the D to "feed off of" nor give them any rest throughout most of the game. Yet the D still kept a team within striking range. Regardless, and I think this point is important, that if we're going to point to the running game has having some significant effect on the D, then you'd think they'd really have to be winning the TOP by a pretty healthy margin, and with the exception of those two games, they're really not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Isn't Teblow going to a knee a flag. He is going to the ground right? Jesus asked me to ask this question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Isn't Teblow going to a knee a flag. He is going to the ground right? Jesus asked me to ask this question. a player is allowed to go to the ground for only that reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh B Tool Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 drink the koolaid or not, the kid has full support and belief from 50+ other players on that team. Still think he gets hurt before the end of season though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 a player is allowed to go to the ground for only that reason If that is the exact reason, it's wrong. B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiderNation1 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 If that is the exact reason, it's wrong. B.S. Just for argumentative purposes... There is only 1 QB in the league right now with a better record as the starter this year... I think you all know who it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Just for argumentative purposes... There is only 1 QB in the league right now with a better record as the starter this year... I think you all know who it is... a better issue for arguments sake would be IF winning is all that matters then should Skelton be benched for Kolb or should he keep starting like Tebow is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) Just for argumentative purposes... There is only 1 QB in the league right now with a better record as the starter this year... I think you all know who it is... QB's don't usually win games on their own. tebow is a waste of an experiment Edited November 29, 2011 by SNOWBOUND33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiderNation1 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 QB's don't usually win games on their own. tebow is a waste of an experiment 5-1 and in the Playoff picture is a waste of an experiment???? I think the Denver Fans and coaching staff would argue that. Whether you like him or not, the players around him are buying into it and obviously playing harder. There D has been outstanding the last few weeks vs their medicore start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiderNation1 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 a better issue for arguments sake would be IF winning is all that matters then should Skelton be benched for Kolb or should he keep starting like Tebow is. Winning is all that matters in the NFL... They play for World Championships... Last time I checked, you have to win in order to get one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Winning is all that matters in the NFL... They play for World Championships... Last time I checked, you have to win in order to get one Coaches have gotten fired after 14-2 seasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Yup. We sucked and now in thev playof hunt. I think all den fans are happy about it? I don't think I posted this here, think I did on twitter...but here you go... how did Denver fans feel about Josh McDaniels after 6 games? Just something to think about is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 1 and done! Bless you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennykravitz2004 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Some interesting points to look over... I have to admit - everything my eyes tell me this kid's a lame duck QB. But he does win. I was wrong about Newton's ability (or as I thought, lack thereof). While I'm still holding out for a bit more time to see if other teams "figure him out" over the long haul, he is making a strong case to convert to Tebow-anity. As much as it pains me to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiderNation1 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 You cant bash on the guy for LEADING a team from 1-4 to 6-5 and becoming relevant again... Bash on the guy if he goes 0-5 to finish the season... Just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice1 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) Tebow is an amazement changing the way defenses must react in an attempt to stop him. No doubt the prototype QB brains love to bash his weak mechanics, which will get better, because this is viewed as a passing league. The reality is though, as defenses have gone to an infinite variety of 3-4 blitz packages with press coverages or two deep schemes the weakness of these defenses are being exposed by both Tebow and Newton as they are forcing a true 11 on 11 game. These type of players will run by design at will and both have serious skill. Obviously, Newton has a vastly superior arm but to date is not in Tebow's class at defensive recognition. The end result is Tebow now has 1307 yards 11 total TD's and only one Int. and one fumble. (both in the same game). Those TD to turnover ratios are amazing and this is why they are in games and winning. That stat is Uber Elite. If you want to see his brain at work, analyze his TD run against the Jets. What we see is a designed roll out left with a 3 deep vertical route on the offense vs a mass blitz by the defense. Tebow reacted to Safety blitzing in from an OLB/DE position. The player took a bad angle which Tebow picked up on and ran right by him causing him to wheel and pursue. The result was a TD. That recognition skill was friggen amazing that few would ever pick up and process that information quick enough to turn into 6 points. He is obviously studying the game very hard and has the skill to make defenses pay for mistakes. Secondly look at their game plan. He threw four times in the opening 10 plays of the game and only rushed 8 times total in the game. Six of those runs were on the last drive and he also completed 3 passes. What we saw was a QB taking advantage of a defense big time. No doubt he is considered a running QB, but he is very good at it. They do run some read react options but he is way smarter then the defense as this is second nature to him and the defense for the most part in the current schemes will have a tough time adjusting. Unless we see some team master the complexity of Landry's flex defense these problems will continue. Denver is a team on the rise with limited offensive talent but the team concept is in full swing here as all have rallied around Tebow. They will win a lot of games ugly and most likely suffer a few blowouts like almost every team in the league. However, just because he completes 15 fewer passes every hundred vs the elites at the position only one in the league can run like him. Players like Vick and Young are very different in that they can run so they will warrant a spy. Players like Newton and Tebow are different so a team can't spy as the next play will be a designed run. I realize many think their offense is vanilla but the ability to run the ball effectively is anything but. Denver is winning with a total team effort but Tebow is obviously a key part of that as everyone is following his next play attitude in all three phases. It is fun to watch. We see QB's throwing for 350 / 400 yards all the time and lose. Usually it is turnovers. Tebow may throw the ball away a lot but he is without question the best protector of the ball in the game since he became the starter at his position. He is a throwback in his completion percentage but then again look at this guys stats: Who is he? 4-6 as a first year starter 123 - 259 47.5% completion percentage, 7 TD's 14 INT's. 28 carries for 146 yards and 1 TD.. 6 fumbles as a starter his first year...... Won a Heisman, Consensus All American, Career NFL QB rating under 80. Career completion percentage under 57%, never hit the 60% completion percentage mark until his 11th season, 1st ballot HOF. Known as a great athlete coming out of college, never very accurate but certainly won a lot of games..... Edited November 30, 2011 by Ice1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis29 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 You cant bash on the guy for LEADING a team from 1-4 to 6-5 and becoming relevant again... Bash on the guy if he goes 0-5 to finish the season... Just my opinion Correlation does not equal causation. As has been pointed out previously, Kyle Orton has a few similar streaks in the past (including winning his first six games as a Bronco), and apparently he's a bum. Denver's defense has been outstanding during this winning streak. The offense has been, by all statistical measure, terrible. Tebow's converting 45% of his passes, and averaging 5.96 yards per attempt. Both figures are awful. Denver's punter is getting a workout every game due to their inept offense. Denver should be thrilled about the direction of their defense. Having said all that, Tebow looked about as good this last Sunday as any time I've seen him. Remains to be seen if that's an aberration, or a sign of things to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 . . . look at this guys stats: Who is he? 4-6 as a first year starter 123 - 259 47.5% completion percentage, 7 TD's 14 INT's. 28 carries for 146 yards and 1 TD.. 6 fumbles as a starter his first year...... Won a Heisman, Consensus All American, Career NFL QB rating under 80. Career completion percentage under 57%, never hit the 60% completion percentage mark until his 11th season, 1st ballot HOF. Known as a great athlete coming out of college, never very accurate but certainly won a lot of games..... Dan Pastorini. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Tebow is an amazement changing the way defenses must react in an attempt to stop him. No doubt the prototype QB brains love to bash his weak mechanics, which will get better, because this is viewed as a passing league. The reality is though, as defenses have gone to an infinite variety of 3-4 blitz packages with press coverages or two deep schemes the weakness of these defenses are being exposed by both Tebow and Newton as they are forcing a true 11 on 11 game. These type of players will run by design at will and both have serious skill. Obviously, Newton has a vastly superior arm but to date is not in Tebow's class at defensive recognition. The end result is Tebow now has 1307 yards 11 total TD's and only one Int. and one fumble. (both in the same game). Those TD to turnover ratios are amazing and this is why they are in games and winning. That stat is Uber Elite. If you want to see his brain at work, analyze his TD run against the Jets. What we see is a designed roll out left with a 3 deep vertical route on the offense vs a mass blitz by the defense. Tebow reacted to Safety blitzing in from an OLB/DE position. The player took a bad angle which Tebow picked up on and ran right by him causing him to wheel and pursue. The result was a TD. That recognition skill was friggen amazing that few would ever pick up and process that information quick enough to turn into 6 points. He is obviously studying the game very hard and has the skill to make defenses pay for mistakes. Secondly look at their game plan. He threw four times in the opening 10 plays of the game and only rushed 8 times total in the game. Six of those runs were on the last drive and he also completed 3 passes. What we saw was a QB taking advantage of a defense big time. No doubt he is considered a running QB, but he is very good at it. They do run some read react options but he is way smarter then the defense as this is second nature to him and the defense for the most part in the current schemes will have a tough time adjusting. Unless we see some team master the complexity of Landry's flex defense these problems will continue. Denver is a team on the rise with limited offensive talent but the team concept is in full swing here as all have rallied around Tebow. They will win a lot of games ugly and most likely suffer a few blowouts like almost every team in the league. However, just because he completes 15 fewer passes every hundred vs the elites at the position only one in the league can run like him. Players like Vick and Young are very different in that they can run so they will warrant a spy. Players like Newton and Tebow are different so a team can't spy as the next play will be a designed run. I realize many think their offense is vanilla but the ability to run the ball effectively is anything but. Denver is winning with a total team effort but Tebow is obviously a key part of that as everyone is following his next play attitude in all three phases. It is fun to watch. We see QB's throwing for 350 / 400 yards all the time and lose. Usually it is turnovers. Tebow may throw the ball away a lot but he is without question the best protector of the ball in the game since he became the starter at his position. He is a throwback in his completion percentage but then again look at this guys stats: Who is he? 4-6 as a first year starter 123 - 259 47.5% completion percentage, 7 TD's 14 INT's. 28 carries for 146 yards and 1 TD.. 6 fumbles as a starter his first year...... Won a Heisman, Consensus All American, Career NFL QB rating under 80. Career completion percentage under 57%, never hit the 60% completion percentage mark until his 11th season, 1st ballot HOF. Known as a great athlete coming out of college, never very accurate but certainly won a lot of games..... Good analysis. Welcome aboard. You can stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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