Why I care

[detlef]

I'm going to shelter some details to protect the innocent:

 

I have a very dear friend. We go back a long way. Worked together for years and there was a time, during my early adulthood, that he was as good a friend as I had.

 

Now, that said, he had a knack for pulling off some serious head-scratchers, often showing some really bad judgment. He also used to tell us stories about when he was at a prominent Catholic HS. The headmaster took kindly to him and actually used to party with him, big time. Apparently they'd go on these school trips and dude turned him on to pot, coke, and apparently bought him hookers. Now, by the time I knew this guy, this was 10+ years in the past. And he sort of played it off like, "What a cool guy this dude was." Seemed effed up to me, but it was just a story that I felt uncomfortable hearing more than anything else.

 

Next thing you know, Catholic priests start getting accused of child molestation. The Brother who turned my friend on to drugs gets accused and, I think, kills himself. Next thing you know, my buddy snaps. At this point, we weren't as close as we'd been, so I heard this through another friend. I tried to reach out, but he was long gone, doing crack, drinking all day long, ripping off anyone who came close, eventually (according to a public defender that I knew and was trying to help him out) running for his life.

 

Amazingly, years later, dude turns up, goes to live with his folks, and cleans up. He's now actually doing great. I mean, really great. Went back to school and is now moving ahead with his life. I don't talk to him much because he's technically not supposed to be around anyone he used to party with, and I respect that. In fact, part of why we started hanging out less and less to begin with was that I always felt weird about drinking around him. Because it seemed like he had a problem, he didn't want to hear it from me, and I didn't want to be an enabler. None the less, I asked that we meet for coffee once when I was in his town and we did. It was great to see him back on his feet.

 

To this day, I've often wondered what sort of stuff, besides the things he used to brag about, went down with Brother X. Regardless, I'm certain that his lack of judgment has everything to do with seeing an authority figure act so reprehensibly around young people. I mean, where's your moral compass now? This guy was a headmaster at a Catholic school, but he could have been a coach for a major sports program. Regardless, you are cuffed from that point forward. You're a time bomb that hopefully will never go off, but the odds are not on your side.

 

I guess that's why I could give two poops about PSU players not getting to play in a bowl game. I'm pretty sure they'll get over it.

[Caveman_Nick]

THis is a spot where we'll definitely have to disagree. Hopefully respectfully.

 

Playing in a bowl game is a once in a lifetime opportunity and could mean quite a bit to many of these players individually. I won't advocate that nothing be done to/with Penn State, but I believe the punishment should punish those who did wrong.

 

Suspend the program for a season. Give those kids who would be with the program next season a chance to find another school or save a year of eligibility. Don't pull the rug out from under the people that are just about done. That's not right for them. THey are already going to have Penn State on their resume, which is likely to be considered a negative for quite some time.

[detlef]

THis is a spot where we'll definitely have to disagree. Hopefully respectfully.

 

Playing in a bowl game is a once in a lifetime opportunity and could mean quite a bit to many of these players individually. I won't advocate that nothing be done to/with Penn State, but I believe the punishment should punish those who did wrong.

 

Suspend the program for a season. Give those kids who would be with the program next season a chance to find another school or save a year of eligibility. Don't pull the rug out from under the people that are just about done. That's not right for them. THey are already going to have Penn State on their resume, which is likely to be considered a negative for quite some time.

It's a bowl game. A field trip with an exhibition game tacked on. There are more than 50 teams in D-1A whose players will not get to go to a bowl game, and their program is only guilty of not putting a good enough product on the field to win 6 games. They'll be fine.

 

Here's the thing. We don't exactly know to what degree, which guys at PSU are guilty. But we do know that the program, as a whole, is guilty. It's either Jo Pa not doing enough, or the guys above him not doing enough, but someone, very important, decided that it was better for the PSU football team if they didn't bring this to light.

 

And all that we're asking is to show us the courtesy of going away. In the big picture, not playing a meaningless game in Florida is not too steep a price to pay.

 

That said, I agree that any player who wants to bail should be able to. Hell, give them back a year of eligibility for all I care.

Edited November 28, 2011 by detlef

[Caveman_Nick]

It's a bowl game. A field trip with an exhibition game tacked on. There are more than 50 teams in D-1A whose players will not get to go to a bowl game, and their program is only guilty of not putting a good enough product on the field to win 6 games. They'll be fine.

 

And chances are those players don't have the same chance to go pro that the players who's school is invited to a bowl game do. If they were good enough to go pro they would almost certainly be at a school that will attend a bowl game.

 

It's not a field trip. It's an audition for an amazingly good job on national television. Something that could affect them for the rest of their lives.

[detlef]

And chances are those players don't have the same chance to go pro that the players who's school is invited to a bowl game do. If they were good enough to go pro they would almost certainly be at a school that will attend a bowl game.

 

It's not a field trip. It's an audition for an amazingly good job on national television. Something that could affect them for the rest of their lives.

I think now you're really digging. It's 2011. How many guys do you think punch their ticket to the NFL based on one bowl game? There's mountains of film, combines, all-star games.... Hell, there's a pretty tidy amount of players who "aren't good enough to play on a bowl team" that will be playing on Sundays.

 

What about the kids at USC? What did they do wrong? Sure, some have come to play there knowing the sanctions were in place, but others were already there.

 

The simple fact is, this is how we punish programs, by punishing the programs.

 

Thousands of kids are pushed through these programs and are essentially infantrymen used to buoy a multi-billion dollar business. We give them a free education but make sure they keep their eye on the prize. That prize is allegedly playing on Sundays, but the vast majority of which will never sniff the NFL. The "prize" really is a fat paycheck for the coach. Now, when one program goes horribly wrong, we need to allow that program to collect a pay check at a bowl game, because it's all about the kids?

[Caveman_Nick]

As I said, this is a spot where we are going to have to disagree. I'm not going help perpetuate another topic where you and someone else repeat the same stuff ad nauseum. I don't think it's right to punish these players. The end. None of them cheated. NCAA regs weren't broken.

 

Some slime appears to have committed a crime. Some other slime appears to have covered up for it. Sounds to me like what happened with the Catholic Church. I don't attend one anymore and didn't get married in one because of that, but I didn't think the parisheners should have been penalized. I just thnk all the slimeballs should have paid dearly for what they did and how they perpetuated the wrongdoings.

 

Let the punishment fit the crime and punish those who committed it. That's not something you are likely to change in my mind.

[detlef]

As I said, this is a spot where we are going to have to disagree. I'm not going help perpetuate another topic where you and someone else repeat the same stuff ad nauseum. I don't think it's right to punish these players. The end. None of them cheated. NCAA regs weren't broken.

Some slime appears to have committed a crime. Some other slime appears to have covered up for it. Sounds to me like what happened with the Catholic Church. I don't attend one anymore and didn't get married in one because of that, but I didn't think the parisheners should have been penalized. I just thnk all the slimeballs should have paid dearly for what they did and how they perpetuated the wrongdoings.

 

Let the punishment fit the crime and punish those who committed it. That's not something you are likely to change in my mind.

FWIW, I believe the NCAA will rule based on this and I'd actually be surprised to see the program punished. I'd just prefer that not to be the case.

 

Assuming, of course, that programs as a whole, including current players, are routinely punished for breaking NCAA rules, and rightly so. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to stop anything. Some booster gives a kid money. It's not against the law, it's just against NCAA rules. Now the kid is in the pros, so you take away his trophy? BFD. What are you going to do to the booster? So, every program would simply need to have this stuff go down 3rd party and you'd never be able to stop anything. You can't stop infractions without hurting the program. And you can't hurt the program without costing players and coaches who had nothing to do with the wrong doings.

 

What other effective manner do you suggest the NCAA police its programs?

 

So, that's how I come to grips with innocent players paying the price for infractions committed by the program. I come to grips with the rest by thinking that hiding something like this sort of makes handing a kid the keys to a car sort of small potatoes.

[Caveman_Nick]

FWIW, I believe the NCAA will rule based on this and I'd actually be surprised to see the program punished. I'd just prefer that not to be the case.

 

Assuming, of course, that programs as a whole, including current players, are routinely punished for breaking NCAA rules, and rightly so. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to stop anything. Some booster gives a kid money. It's not against the law, it's just against NCAA rules. Now the kid is in the pros, so you take away his trophy? BFD. What are you going to do to the booster? So, every program would simply need to have this stuff go down 3rd party and you'd never be able to stop anything. You can't stop infractions without hurting the program. And you can't hurt the program without costing players and coaches who had nothing to do with the wrong doings.

 

What other effective manner do you suggest the NCAA police its programs?

 

So, that's how I come to grips with innocent players paying the price for infractions committed by the program. I come to grips with the rest by thinking that hiding something like this sort of makes handing a kid the keys to a car sort of small potatoes.

 

As I said originally, suspend the program next year, or for multiple years. That gives the kids there the chance to react.Barring thoe that are there from a bowl game only punishes the players, who did nothing wrong

[Controller]

As atrocious and unforgiveable as the charges are, shouldn't those involved, including Sandusky, have their day in court before ANYONE is punished?

[detlef]

As I said originally, suspend the program next year, or for multiple years. That gives the kids there the chance to react.Barring thoe that are there from a bowl game only punishes the players, who did nothing wrong

Well, you're right about at least one thing. We're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Ursa Majoris]

As atrocious and unforgiveable as the charges are, shouldn't those involved, including Sandusky, have their day in court before ANYONE is punished?

I'm glad someone has brought this up. It seems to have been lost in the furor.

 

Also, I am not convinced the NCAA will hand down any penalty at all. What NCAA rule has been broken? Maybe one covering some general aspect of covering up a crime, maybe? Unless at least one rule has been broken, the NCAA have no jurisdiction in this matter and nor should they have. It is way too serious for a bunch of sports people to be judging.

[bpwallace49]

I'm glad someone has brought this up. It seems to have been lost in the furor.

 

Also, I am not convinced the NCAA will hand down any penalty at all. What NCAA rule has been broken? Maybe one covering some general aspect of covering up a crime, maybe? Unless at least one rule has been broken, the NCAA have no jurisdiction in this matter and nor should they have. It is way too serious for a bunch of sports people to be judging.

 

I agree with this.

[BeeR]

I guess that's why I could give two poops about PSU players not getting to play in a bowl game. I'm pretty sure they'll get over it.

Gee I couldn't tell that another shot at PSU was coming - and by using a long lead-in jab at the Catholic Church too, well done

 

I thought "make everyone pay for the crimes of a few" was bad enough, but "They'll get over it" is so weak it's laughable. Did caddyshack steal your password? PS I notice in all that you didn't include any actual logic as to why kids who had nothing at all to do with this should be punished. Just "get over it."

 

Wait that's right, how could I forget, it's the mob mentality. Who needs logic or facts or reason? Burn baby burn!! And "get over it."

 

 

Playing in a bowl game is a once in a lifetime opportunity and could mean quite a bit to many of these players individually. I won't advocate that nothing be done to/with Penn State, but I believe the punishment should punish those who did wrong.

Stop being rational. The mob hates that.

 

As atrocious and unforgiveable as the charges are, shouldn't those involved, including Sandusky, have their day in court before ANYONE is punished?

Now THAT'S crazy talk. You should be burned at the stake too!! Edited November 28, 2011 by BeeR

[MrTed46]

As atrocious and unforgiveable as the charges are, shouldn't those involved, including Sandusky, have their day in court before ANYONE is punished?

 

For legal matters? Yes.

 

But I see no problem with an organization parting ways with someone that has tarnished their reputation. Damage control begins immediately.

[detlef]

Gee I couldn't tell that another shot at PSU was coming - and by using a long lead-in jab at the Catholic Church too, well done

Here's how deranged you are. I tell a real-life story about a friend who was completely and totally violated by the headmaster at his Catholic HS. Who, at very least turned him on to drugs and hookers and, could have quite possibly done far worse. And you can see right past all that window dressing and realize that the real agenda is that I can't help myself but take jabs at the church. Well done.

 

I must say it's a bit odd that you seem to get the most bent out of shape when people start going after pedophiles.

Edited November 28, 2011 by detlef

[detlef]

As atrocious and unforgiveable as the charges are, shouldn't those involved, including Sandusky, have their day in court before ANYONE is punished?

If precedent means anything, teams often suspend players based on allegations to protect the program from worse penalties handed down by the NCAA in the event that the players, ultimately get found guilty. See UNC last year. And players who have sued over this have essentially been told to piss off.

[Controller]

If precedent means anything, teams often suspend players based on allegations to protect the program from worse penalties handed down by the NCAA in the event that the players, ultimately get found guilty. See UNC last year. And players who have sued over this have essentially been told to piss off.

 

In this case, it is an assistant coach alleged to have molested young men/boys. If he is found guilty, and based on what's come out so far it sure looks like he is guilty, I hope he gets a long stint in prison with a roommate nicknamed the Rectum Re-arranger. And if Paterno and/or the AD covered it up, they should go to prison with him. I just think that punishing the players on this year's team is premature and misdirected. NOT punishing the current players while the criminal charges are sorted out does not further tarnish the program, IMO.

[BeeR]

Here's how deranged you are. I tell a real-life story about a friend who was completely and totally violated by the headmaster at his Catholic HS. Who, at very least turned him on to drugs and hookers and, could have quite possibly done far worse. And you can see right past all that window dressing and realize that the real agenda is that I can't help myself but take jabs at the church. Well done.

 

I must say it's a bit odd that you seem to get the most bent out of shape when people start going after pedophiles.

No, that's how deranged you are. If you want to kid yourself that you just told that story w/o any agenda to jab at the RCC or at PSU, knock yourself out. You didn't have to add the detail of being a Catholic HS or use it for the ham-handed segue into PSU. That you did speaks for itself. But enjoy your delusions.

 

Given that, the equally lame and laughably weak cheap shot at me about pedophiles at the end was hardly surprising and also telling. Once again a rabid mob mentality rears its brain-dead head. More frothing at the mouth and lashing out. Burn baby burn!

[Pope Flick]

No, that's how deranged you are. If you want to kid yourself that you just told that story w/o any agenda to jab at the RCC or at PSU, knock yourself out. You didn't have to add the detail of being a Catholic HS or use it for the ham-handed segue into PSU. That you did speaks for itself. But enjoy your delusions.

 

Given that, the equally lame and laughably weak cheap shot at me about pedophiles at the end was hardly surprising and also telling. Once again a rabid mob mentality rears its brain-dead head. More frothing at the mouth and lashing out. Burn baby burn!

 

 

Says the guy who's saying that Fine shouldn't have been fired AFTER his wife's phone conversation went public.

 

You're the biggest troll here, and should get out a bit more quite honestly. Or do you want to go back for rooting for the NFL to die during the strike on a FF site?

[bpwallace49]

I see this thread ending well . . . . .

 

[MrTed46]

oh no he didnt

[detlef]

No, that's how deranged you are. If you want to kid yourself that you just told that story w/o any agenda to jab at the RCC or at PSU, knock yourself out. You didn't have to add the detail of being a Catholic HS or use it for the ham-handed segue into PSU. That you did speaks for itself. But enjoy your delusions.

 

Given that, the equally lame and laughably weak cheap shot at me about pedophiles at the end was hardly surprising and also telling. Once again a rabid mob mentality rears its brain-dead head. More frothing at the mouth and lashing out. Burn baby burn!

Why would I purposefully omit that the dude went to a Catholic HS? You're basically asking me to hide the truth to protect the church. I said I'd withhold details to protect the innocent.

 

None the less, looking to take jabs at the church or PSU would require me to go find a story, not simply relate one very close to me that has always pissed me off. And if the shoe fits...

 

Seriously, you can't deny that every time some dares sully the good name of the church or PSU, not only because of the pedophiles within their ranks but, more importantly, for the pathetic manner in which they've handled the situations, you're ready to throw down. And that can only mean one thing, that you care more about the church's or PSU's good name than you do about making sure neither is harboring pedophiles. And that is beyond sick.

 

I get it, pedophiles exist. If one popped up in the church or this Sandusky guy happened, and either group stopped what they were doing and got to the bottom of it, rather than protecting their name, I would have no trouble with either institution. But neither did. We've got everyone at PSU "running it up the chain" and moving on, and we have the Pope's own personal preacher comparing people wanting the Pope to answer a few questions about how much he may have known about a pedophile priest, to the holocaust.

 

How can anyone be cool with that? How is that, in any way defensible?

 

And, yes, I have a very personal beef with it. To me, it's not some stranger who got diddled with by a priest or a coach. For me, it's someone who I knew very well, who was the victim of this sort of thing. Like I said, I don't know if he, was ever actually sexually violated, but he was certainly the victim of a pervert.

Edited November 28, 2011 by detlef

[bushwacked]

Given that, the equally lame and laughably weak cheap shot at me about pedophiles at the end was hardly surprising and also telling. Once again a rabid mob mentality rears its brain-dead head. More frothing at the mouth and lashing out. Burn baby burn!

 

You whine about Det stating that after you fire off a barrage of unprovoked shots that are seemingly way off base? You are one odd and miserable dude.

[detlef]

In this case, it is an assistant coach alleged to have molested young men/boys. If he is found guilty, and based on what's come out so far it sure looks like he is guilty, I hope he gets a long stint in prison with a roommate nicknamed the Rectum Re-arranger. And if Paterno and/or the AD covered it up, they should go to prison with him. I just think that punishing the players on this year's team is premature and misdirected. NOT punishing the current players while the criminal charges are sorted out does not further tarnish the program, IMO.

I actually think that PSU should not accept a bowl bid, more than I think they should be denied one. With a bowl bid comes more PSU on TV. More PSU on TV means more a-holes holding up signs like those who went stupid after Joe Pa got canned. As a matter of courtesy, the U owes us not having to put up with that crap. They owe us the courtesy of going away, worrying about who did what, punishing those people, and coming back once they have their crap together. For PSU, this is not a time for football.

 

Sure, this will suck for the current players, because they did nothing wrong. But they just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time and their punishment is not getting a trip to Orlando and the bag of swag waiting for them down there.

 

This will neither be the first time, nor the last, when someone innocent is denied something cool because of some effed up thing someone else did.

 

As for Nick's fears about a guy missing his shot at the pros, if he's got what it takes and hasn't shown it yet, he can use this as an opportunity to devote himself to his game and show the world that he, actually, is bigger than the PSU program that let him down.

Edited November 28, 2011 by detlef

[Controller]

I actually think that PSU should not accept a bowl bid, more than I think they should be denied one. With a bowl bid comes more PSU on TV. More PSU on TV means more a-holes holding up signs like those who went stupid after Joe Pa got canned. As a matter of courtesy, the U owes us not having to put up with that crap. They owe us the courtesy of going away, worrying about who did what, punishing those people, and coming back once they have their crap together. For PSU, this is not a time for football.

 

Sure, this will suck for the current players, because they did nothing wrong. But they just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time and their punishment is not getting a trip to Orlando and the bag of swag waiting for them down there.

 

This will neither be the first time, nor the last, when someone innocent is denied something cool because of something they didn't do.

 

As for Nick's fears about a guy missing his shot at the pros, if he's got what it takes and hasn't shown it yet, he can use this as an opportunity to devote himself to his game and show the world that he, actually, is bigger than the PSU program that let him down.

 

This I can agree with.