SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 (edited) Okay I am the commissioner of a league in which going into last nights game Crotch Rockets had 124.66 with Akers left to play. The opponent was done with 124.8 points. Akers made his extra point to put Crotch up by 1 point. Well Crotch also had the Patriots defense playing which initially had 19 points...the score changed over night to 17. Apparently there is a controversy over a fumble recovery (2pts) in our league. NFL.com had T. Brown with a fumble recovery...did he recover that on defense or offense? Edited December 28, 2004 by SuperBalla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slusy Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Yahoo's box score doesn't list any defensive fumble recoveries for Brown, if that helps: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore?gid=20041226020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big F'n Dave Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 (edited) Ack! Good luck with that. MFL is giving Brown a goose egg at WR and NFL.com credits him with a fumble recovery. I'm assuming that means he recovered the fumble while playing DB. Edit to add link to the official NFL stats. Edited December 28, 2004 by Big F'n Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 (edited) NFL.com Edited December 28, 2004 by SuperBalla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 It looks like T. Brown fumbled and recovered his own...T. Banta-Cain recovered one that isn't mentioned on the play by play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Okay I am the commissioner of a league in which going into last nights game Crotch Rockets had 124.66 with Akers left to play. The opponent was done with 124.8 points. Akers made his extra point to put Crotch up by 1 point. Well Crotch also had the Patriots defense playing which initially had 19 points...the score changed over night to 17. Apparently there is a controversy over a fumble recovery (2pts) in our league. NFL.com had T. Brown with a fumble recovery...did he recover that on defense or offense? 633770[/snapback] It's a little confusing because NFL.com does show NE as losing 2 fumbles, one by Pennington and one by Chrebet. But the only one I can find is the one by Pennington and it was recovered by J. Green. 1-10-NE35 (2:25) C.Pennington sacked at NE 37 for -2 yards (R.Colvin). FUMBLES (R.Colvin), RECOVERED by NE-J.Green at NE 36. I can't find anything about a Chrebet fumble in the play by play. But I did find this... 4-2-NE37 (8:07) T.Gowin punts 24 yards to NE 13, Center-J.Dearth. T.Brown MUFFS catch, and recovers at NE 13. T.Brown to NE 13 for no gain (J.Cotchery). This might be where they are crediting Brown with a fumble recovery. It is the only instance I can find in the play by play of Brown recovering a fumble. In this instance he was not recovering an opponents fumble but his own instead. Also NFL.com lists the following Patriots as recovering fumbles: T. Brown - recovered his own fumble on the punt. T. Banta-Cain - recovered a kickoff C. Fauria - recovered a Dillon fumble J. Green - recovered Pennington's fumble So I would say that Wayne Chrebet probably did not really have a fumble and that Troy Brown did not recover a fumble from the Jet's Offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorfinn Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 To save you the trouble, Brown dropped a punt and recovered it..no change of possesion occured. NFL.com 633796[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slusy Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Here you go. This is from the play-by-play on NFL.com: "4-2-NE37 (8:07) T.Gowin punts 24 yards to NE 13, Center-J.Dearth. T.Brown MUFFS catch, and recovers at NE 13. T.Brown to NE 13 for no gain (J.Cotchery)." So he fumbled the punt return and then recovered it himself. Defense shouldn't get credit for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 what about banta-cain though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 ok...the controversy lies in Banta-Cains recovery of Vinateri's kick-off at the end of the second half. NFL.com credits him with a fumble recovery...however CBS doesn't. If a ball is kicked and it hits a receiving team player then the kicking team recovers...is that considered a fumble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slusy Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 I guess that depends on whether your Defense points typically include special teams. If your defense would get points for a kickoff return that was run back for a TD, for example, then the NE D owner might have a case. If not, then you can't give him the points, because the ball was technically recovered on special teams, not on defense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorfinn Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Not that this has any bearing, but here is the scoring for NE's Def for our league via Rtsports: New England Patriots 3.0 sacks (3 pts) New England Patriots 1 fumble recovered (1 pts) New England Patriots 2 interceptions (2 pts) New England Patriots 7 total points allowed (8 pts) New England Patriots 279 total net yards allowed (2 pts) ok...the controversy lies in Banta-Cains recovery of Vinateri's kick-off at the end of the second half. NFL.com credits him with a fumble recovery...however CBS doesn't. If a ball is kicked and it hits a receiving team player then the kicking team recovers...is that considered a fumble? 633886[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 We get 2 points for defensive and special teams fumble recoveries. If Banta recovered an on-side kick that touched a Jet player is that considered a fumble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 It's a little confusing because NFL.com does show NE as losing 2 fumbles, one by Pennington and one by Chrebet. But the only one I can find is the one by Pennington and it was recovered by J. Green. 1-10-NE35 (2:25) C.Pennington sacked at NE 37 for -2 yards (R.Colvin). FUMBLES (R.Colvin), RECOVERED by NE-J.Green at NE 36. I can't find anything about a Chrebet fumble in the play by play. But I did find this... 4-2-NE37 (8:07) T.Gowin punts 24 yards to NE 13, Center-J.Dearth. T.Brown MUFFS catch, and recovers at NE 13. T.Brown to NE 13 for no gain (J.Cotchery). This might be where they are crediting Brown with a fumble recovery. It is the only instance I can find in the play by play of Brown recovering a fumble. In this instance he was not recovering an opponents fumble but his own instead. Also NFL.com lists the following Patriots as recovering fumbles: T. Brown - recovered his own fumble on the punt. T. Banta-Cain - recovered a kickoff C. Fauria - recovered a Dillon fumble J. Green - recovered Pennington's fumble So I would say that Wayne Chrebet probably did not really have a fumble and that Troy Brown did not recover a fumble from the Jet's Offense. 633811[/snapback] Yup no controversy ... this is NOT a defensive fumble recovery and the opponent loses 2 points giving NE 17 instead of 19 points. Points are NEVER final until Tuesday morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 We get 2 points for defensive and special teams fumble recoveries. If Banta recovered an on-side kick that touched a Jet player is that considered a fumble? 633954[/snapback] Did the guy who had the NE Defense also have the NE Special Teams? For most purposes the leagues I have been in have always considered muffs to be fumbles. But the real question is how does your league view it. As to your original question Troy Brown does not get credit for a fumble recovery. As to your follow up we need more info concerning which special teams unit the owner in question started. If he started the NE defense does he automatically get the NE Special Teams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Why exactly would a player who fumbled the ball and then recovered his own fumble be awarded ANY points? Why exactly would a team that fumbles the ball and then recovers their own fumble be awarded ANY points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 We get 2 points for defensive and special teams fumble recoveries. If Banta recovered an on-side kick that touched a Jet player is that considered a fumble? 633954[/snapback] IMO yes, it is just like a muffed punt return in that it is scored and treated the same as a fumble recovery. The touching of the ball on a kick by the receiving team (or the ball travelling 10 yards on a kickoff) establishes possession for the receiving team, thus any muff/fumble after that is treated as a turnover. However, in looking at the NFL.com gamebook for the game, it appears this situation is treated differently as no one is credited with a fumble or fumble recovery on the play and New England is credited in their drive summary as having obtained the ball by recovering their own kickoff, not by recovering a fumble. Based on that, I would say no points would be awarded to the New England team even though there was a change of possession on the play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Why exactly would a player who fumbled the ball and then recovered his own fumble be awarded ANY points? Why exactly would a team that fumbles the ball and then recovers their own fumble be awarded ANY points? 634013[/snapback] I think he is talking about Banta-cain's recovery of the kickoff that touched a Jet. Not Troy Brown's recovery of his own muffed punt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 IMO yes, it is just like a muffed punt return in that it is scored and treated the same as a fumble recovery. The touching of the ball on a kick by the receiving team (or the ball travelling 10 yards on a kickoff) establishes possession for the receiving team, thus any muff/fumble after that is treated as a turnover. However, in looking at the NFL.com gamebook for the game, it appears this situation is treated differently as no one is credited with a fumble or fumble recovery on the play and New England is credited in their drive summary as having obtained the ball by recovering their own kickoff, not by recovering a fumble. Based on that, I would say no points would be awarded to the New England team even though there was a change of possession on the play. 634021[/snapback] And just to add a little to that, if the kickoff that Banta-Cain recovered did NOT touch a Jet then there wasn't really even a change of possession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Question: Are teams that recover a onside kick normally awarded 2 points for a turnover? Was Tennessee's defense/st credited for fumble recoveries for every onside kick they recovered in their week 13 game against Indianapolis? I'd say that if Tennessee received no turnover points in week 13 then it's clear that NE shouldn't get them here either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Agree with Grits about the scoring. Jrick, possession changes upon the act of the kick, so recovering an onside kick is still considered a change of possession, at least as far as I know. The question then becomes a matter of do the league scoring rules have a certain point given for turnover, or are the points awarded for interceptions and fumble recoveries? If it is turnover, than every time a team failed to convert on a 4th down, or missed a FG would be considered a turnover and points for the team defense, and as I highly suspect this is not the way the scoring was implemented throughout the course of the season, I would suspect thatthe New England defense would receive no points for recovering the touched kickoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Agree with Grits about the scoring. Jrick, possession changes upon the act of the kick, so recovering an onside kick is still considered a change of possession, at least as far as I know. The question then becomes a matter of do the league scoring rules have a certain point given for turnover, or are the points awarded for interceptions and fumble recoveries? If it is turnover, than every time a team failed to convert on a 4th down, or missed a FG would be considered a turnover and points for the team defense, and as I highly suspect this is not the way the scoring was implemented throughout the course of the season, I would suspect thatthe New England defense would receive no points for recovering the touched kickoff. 634036[/snapback] Don't misunderstand me here. I agree that NE should not get any points for recovering the kick, unless it was muffed or fumbled by a Jet. Which I don't know for sure because I didn't see the game and in the play by play it makes no mention of it. I may have worded it wrong but I agree with what you said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Agree with Grits about the scoring. Jrick, possession changes upon the act of the kick, so recovering an onside kick is still considered a change of possession, at least as far as I know. The question then becomes a matter of do the league scoring rules have a certain point given for turnover, or are the points awarded for interceptions and fumble recoveries? If it is turnover, than every time a team failed to convert on a 4th down, or missed a FG would be considered a turnover and points for the team defense, and as I highly suspect this is not the way the scoring was implemented throughout the course of the season, I would suspect thatthe New England defense would receive no points for recovering the touched kickoff. 634036[/snapback] Onside kicks are certainly different animals as the ball can be recovered by the kicking team without being touched by the defense, if it has travelled 10 yards. The recovery of an onside kick should NOT be treated differently (by fantasy leagues) based on whether or not the ball touched a recieving teams' player first. Do you get points for a turnover if a player intercepts a 2 point conversion? Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Onside kicks are certainly different animals as the ball can be recovered by the kicking team without being touched by the defense, if it has travelled 10 yards. The recovery of an onside kick should NOT be treated differently (by fantasy leagues) based on whether or not the ball touched a recieving teams' player first. Do you get points for a turnover if a player intercepts a 2 point conversion? Probably not. 634049[/snapback] Agree that an onside kick recovery is an onside kick recovery regardless of whether or not it touches a receiving team player. And, as conversions are not considered regular offensive or defensive plays, there are no stats associated with the play at all.. no rush attempt, pass attempt, reception, yardage, sack, tackle, fumble, interception or anything. it is an untimed "non-play" whre in fantasy terms the only potential scoring would be a succesful extra point kick (point for kicker), a succesful rushing 2 point conversion (points to rusher), a succesful passing 2 point conversion (points to passer and receiver), or, for leagues that give points to the defense for blocked kicks, a points for blocking a PAT attempt. Other than that, there are no statistics or points scored for conversion tries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 Agree that an onside kick recovery is an onside kick recovery regardless of whether or not it touches a receiving team player. And, as conversions are not considered regular offensive or defensive plays, there are no stats associated with the play at all.. no rush attempt, pass attempt, reception, yardage, sack, tackle, fumble, interception or anything. it is an untimed "non-play" whre in fantasy terms the only potential scoring would be a succesful extra point kick (point for kicker), a succesful rushing 2 point conversion (points to rusher), a succesful passing 2 point conversion (points to passer and receiver), or, for leagues that give points to the defense for blocked kicks, a points for blocking a PAT attempt. Other than that, there are no statistics or points scored for conversion tries. 634073[/snapback] NFL.com then has it wrong by awarding Banta-Cain with a fumble recovery when there was no fumble. The only way by our discussion that a fumble recovery would be recorded as one on a kick is if the receiving team caught the ball, attempted to run with it or did run with it then fumbled the ball resulting in the kicking teams recovery. Forget T. Brown...that one is clear. I just have to explain to a guy who went to sleep with 1G to wake up with 330...thanks for all the help! I need to find out exactly what happened...what else is strange is that cbssportsline changed the score several times. Why would they do that? They have pissed me off about this too because I e-mailed them trying to get an explanation on why the score was changed and they e-mail me a generic...load of crap...I e-mailed them again...they replied with the same shat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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