jgcoach Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 To save you the trouble, Brown dropped a punt and recovered it..no change of possesion occured. 633812[/snapback] You are correct, unless there is a change of possession there is no fumble recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 You are correct, unless there is a change of possession there is no fumble recovery. 634123[/snapback] I am no longer talking about T. Brown...what is up with the recovery credited to Banta-Cain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Super - Where are you getting the recovery credited to Banta-Cain? There is nothing to say they were awarded a fumble recovery on NFL.com. As stated in one of my earlier replies, it is my opinion that the kickoff situation SHOULD be treated the same as a muffed punt and that is it considered a fumble recovery/turnover, but it is obvious based on the statistics on the gamebook for the game that this is not the case, and that New England is credited for starting the drive via the recovery of their own kickoff. So, unless you have awarded other defensive teams points for the recovery of onside/touched kickoffs, New England should not get any points for this situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 (edited) Super - Where are you getting the recovery credited to Banta-Cain? There is nothing to say they were awarded a fumble recovery on NFL.com. As stated in one of my earlier replies, it is my opinion that the kickoff situation SHOULD be treated the same as a muffed punt and that is it considered a fumble recovery/turnover, but it is obvious based on the statistics on the gamebook for the game that this is not the case, and that New England is credited for starting the drive via the recovery of their own kickoff. So, unless you have awarded other defensive teams points for the recovery of onside/touched kickoffs, New England should not get any points for this situation 634159[/snapback] here did anyone see the game? If he just recovered the onside kick then it is settled...no fumble recovery. If it hit a Jets player then is it a fumble recovery? Did a Jets player catch it then fumble it? Also...who recovered Chrebets fumble lost? Edited December 28, 2004 by SuperBalla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 here did anyone see the game? If he just recovered the onside kick then it is settled...no fumble recovery. If it hit a Jets player then is it a fumble recovery? Did a Jets player catch it then fumble it? Also...who recovered Chrebets fumble lost? 634173[/snapback] According to the NFL.com Game Book for this game Link The Jets had 2 fumbles 1 by McCariens and 1 by Pennington. McCariens recovered his own fumble and J. Green of NE recovered Pennington's. And Troy Brown is given a fumble for his muffed punt so I would say that if someone from the Jets had touched the kickoff that Banta-Cain recovered then they would have been given a fumble in the game book. Since they weren't I would say that Banta-Cain simply recovered the kick, not a muff or fumble. So no points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 According to the NFL.com Game Book for this game LinkThe Jets had 2 fumbles 1 by McCariens and 1 by Pennington. McCariens recovered his own fumble and J. Green of NE recovered Pennington's. And Troy Brown is given a fumble for his muffed punt so I would say that if someone from the Jets had touched the kickoff that Banta-Cain recovered then they would have been given a fumble in the game book. Since they weren't I would say that Banta-Cain simply recovered the kick, not a muff or fumble. So no points. 634185[/snapback] That is what I am looking for...thanks jrick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Also, the NFL.com Game Stats page is notorious for being incorrect and not getting updated. The most "consistent" place on NFL.com for mostly accurate stats would be the gamebook, which shows that Banta-Cain DID NOT have a fumble recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 Check this out...read play by play before second quarter: Yahoo's play by play says that J. Glenn returned the kick for no gain...then fumbled the ball. T. Banta-Cain recovered the fumble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 I just read on New England's site that the onside kick hit the up back J. Gleen and after a scrum T. Banta-Cain recovered the ball...so...by rule this would not have been considered a fumble...I guess because he didn't posses the ball it wasn't a fumble. If he (Glenn) would have picked the ball up and was able to run...would it then have been a fumble? It doesn't matter now because it is clear there wasn't a fumble to recover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 All kickoffs are live balls until one team has clear possession of the ball. Neither team is in "possession" of it until then. So unless one team did possess it, then fumbled it away, there is no turnover. (Instances of the ball not going 10 yards or out of bounds are penalties and dealt as such for possession. And kicks going out of the end zone become the receiving team's ball at the 20.) Plus this is different than a punt where the it is the receiving team's ball once the punted ball crosses the line of scrimmage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PackerFanX Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 NFL.com gamecenter shows 4 fumble recoveries for NE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PackerFanX Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 NFL Kickoff Rule #4: 4. A kickoff is illegal unless it travels 10 yards OR is touched by the receiving team. Once the ball is touched by the receiving team or has gone 10 yards, it is a free ball. Receivers may recover and advance. Kicking team may recover but NOT advance UNLESS receiver had possession and lost the ball. It appears that it is not a fumble if it just hits a player. I am Comish in my league and lost $550 because of this. I am going by CBS Sportsline on this one and not reversing the -2 points for NE Defense (unless CBS Sportline changes it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boat_hacked Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 A.Vinatieri kicks 38 yards from NE 30 to NYJ 32. RECOVERED by NE-T.Banta-Cain. taken from NFL.COM since no mention of a fumble no points for a FR. from this looks like a kickoff recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBalla Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 (edited) This settled it... I posted the final decision on our web-site that the team with New England lost. I really appreciate all the help from you guys trying to steer me to thie correct decision. If the NFL calls it one way then it is written in stone. If cbssportsline was scoring something different than how the NFL sees it...then there is a problem. The guy went to sleep with 1,000 bucks in his pocket and woke up with 330. He handled it well and understood...thanks again for the insight, Big John, Jrick, Grits, Big Country, Packer X, and all you others! Link above gets you here...I copied it for you. Three For Free The Patriots were nearly the benefactors of three free points at the end of the first half. Following a field goal that extended their lead to 13-0, the ensuing kickoff by Vinatieri bounced of New York upback Jason Glenn. After several Jets missed a chance to recover the ball, Patriots linebacker Tully Banta-Cain recovered the ball at the New York 33-yard line, giving the Patriots the ball with two seconds left in the half. Edited December 29, 2004 by SuperBalla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 No fumble recovery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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