Alexander robbed

[Bonehand]

If you have an idea of how many yards you need before the game starts then that changes your whole outlook. 

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Wait up a sec , phenom. a couple points:

 

#1 The Jets game was still going on well into the second quarter of the Hawks game, so there was now way for the team to know exactly what yardage SA would need before the game started.

 

#2 Curtis Martin may have had 4 plays which netted negative yards, but he got 24 of his yards in OT, so had he not got an extra quarter to work, Alexander gets the title.

 

#3 According to Holmgren's press conference today, he didn't know how many yards Alexander needed at the time of Hass's TD. He was being updated at the end of each drive, not constantly. When he was told that they were inches shy of the goal line, he called for the QB sneak. Figuring with 5:02 left they would get the ball back.

 

as such, I don't buy your argument that Alexander got shafted. And as I've said, I like SA. The facts just don't back up any notion that there was a conspiracy to deny SA the record.

[Jrick35]

How can this argument even still be going on?

 

If Holmgren or the Seahawks were trying to keep Shaun Alexander from getting the record then why did he have the third most carries in the entire NFL this year?

 

Only 7 backs averaged more carries per game and 2 of them only played in 8 games so they don't even count, which reduces the number of backs with more carries per game than Alexander to only 5.

 

And the difference between Alexander at #5 and Martin who had the most among RB's with at least 9 games was only 1.1 carry per game.

 

So I would say that SA got his fair share of carries this year.

 

And even if he got the carry at the goal line, who's to say he would have scored?

 

And even if he had scored, based on the fact that the Seahawks never touched the ball again the rest of the game then SA still only would have tied Martin.

 

But if you all still want to "blame" someone for SA not getting the rushing title how about looking back at the game logs for weeks 2 & 3?

 

In those games SA was coming off a great week 1 performance and going up against Tampa Bay and San Francisco. Neither one of those teams were any good against the run this year giving up just about 124 yds per game on the ground and yet SA could only manage to gain 2.65 yds per carry in those games.

 

In those 2 games combined SA had 36 carries for a whopping 97 yds. If he had just averaged 2.8 yds per carry he would have added a little over 3 yds to his season total and this entire thread would have not been necessary.

[phenom]

I didn't say there was a conspiracy to keep Alexander from getting the rushing title. Also Holmgren saying he didn't know that Alexander was 1 yard short has no bearing on my POV.

 

My point is Holmgren misuses Alexander constantly rushing title or no rushing title. The play by play backs it up. When Seattle gives Alexander the ball they are better and more efficient offense. Curtis Martin was going for the rushing title also, everybody's talking about how he's the oldest to win it. He got 28 carries. Seems logical since he carried the Jets offense this year. If Holmgren uses Alexander the way he should then there would be no reason for this thread.

 

 

If he was trying to get Alexander the rushing title before the game started he sure didn't show it by only giving him 13 rushes all the way until the 4th quarter with 9:38 left in the game. If the Seahawks were playing to win then they would have been giving Alexander the ball. They were down by 4 points at halftime so it wasn't like they had to pass the ball every down. Do you know how many yards Shaun needed for the title right then? Starting the 3rd quarter he 25 yards. But the Seahawks threw the ball on 10 of their first 13 plays of the second half.

 

 

Going back over a players stats over the course of a season and saying "Well you could have done better in this game so there!" is so weak I can't believe someone is using that. I mean he avg'd 4.8 yards over the season which is the highest avg of any RB besides Chris Brown with more than 200 carries. But you want to pick out his two poor games, that's sad............

[WaterMan]

What would have happened if Hasselbeck got hurt on that sneak?

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

What would have happened if Hasselbeck got hurt on that sneak?

 

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Same thing as if Alexander got hurt on the run, except Dilfer is arguably on eof the best backups in the league.

[WaterMan]

Same thing as if Alexander got hurt on the run, except Dilfer is arguably on eof the best backups in the league.

 

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A running back is built to do that, unlike a QB, unless he's McNair. But you've seen how many injuries McNair has piled up.

[Jrick35]

Just out of curiosity didn't the Seahawks win?

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

A running back is built to do that, unlike a QB, unless he's McNair. But you've seen how many injuries McNair has piled up.

 

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Or your RB 's name is Fred Taylor. Or Edge. Or McGahee.

 

RBs are built to do that, until they get hurt. Bottom line is any player can get hurt on any play. The ran a play that worked, nobody got hurt, they won their 3rd Div title in team history.

 

THAT'S the bottom line.

[phenom]

Or your RB 's name is Fred Taylor. Or Edge. Or McGahee.

 

RBs are built to do that, until they get hurt. Bottom line is any player can get hurt on any play. The ran a play that worked, nobody got hurt, they won their 3rd Div title in team history.

 

THAT'S the bottom line.

 

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No it's not because that's the dream world that everyone wants to perpetuate that no one cares about QB ratings, records, titles, style points etc etc.

 

 

What about contract incentives? Hmmmm? Aren't there contract incentives for going to the Pro Bowl, winning individual titles, getting certain yardage requirements, etc etc. Don't athletes try to prove themselves worthy of a new contract or a recently signed big money contract. Yeah it should be about getting the win EXCEPT when it's a player you're rooting to get the record.

 

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/010205...ickles001.shtml

 

On the other hand, the Seattle Seahawks running back Shaun Alexander will win the NFC rushing title this season and he'll lead the NFL if he holds off the Colts' Edgerrin James and New York Jets' Curtis Martin today.

 

Alexander's 1,616 rushing yards give him a 66-yard advantage over James and a 72-yard lead over Martin heading into the final weekend. Alexander's offensive linemen, obviously, would love to see their man win -- if only for the gift they might receive.

 

Alexander gave all his blockers iPods after last season for helping him reach contract incentives that boosted his salary. But what about this year?

 

"It's going to be fun looking for the rushing title gift," Alexander said.

 

"A couple of guys asked for Ferraris. I don't know if we'll go that far, but that's right around the limit."

 

 

As much as everyone acts hypocritical on athletes going for bonuses as some kind of selfish act. How many people here are contractors or work on commission and when they do their job they try to get as much money as they can. Athletes are just as human and have faults just like everyone else. It's just these people who have nothing else that put athletes on pedestals.............

[WaterMan]

Maybe Hasselbeck will buy them Ferraris.

[godtomsatan]

Just out of curiosity didn't the Seahawks win?

 

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When did THAT ever matter?

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Alexander failed Alexander, and that's it. If it mattered to him THAT much, so the philanthropist he is could pass out Ferraris, he would work on his ball control problem. Or he would have struggled to earn every yard he possibly could on every play.

 

Holmgrens #1 job is to win championships, and a big step to doing that is winning your division. If a player can set a personal goal along the way, great. If not, suck it up.

 

Even Alexander has admitted he acted like a tool. The only people left whinning about this are the ones on this thread.

[Jrick35]

No it's not because that's the dream world that everyone wants to perpetuate that no one cares about QB ratings, records, titles, style points etc etc.

What about contract incentives?  Hmmmm?  Aren't there contract incentives for going to the Pro Bowl, winning individual titles, getting certain yardage requirements, etc etc.  Don't athletes try to prove themselves worthy of a new contract or a recently signed big money contract.  Yeah it should be about getting the win EXCEPT when it's a player you're rooting to get the record.

 

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/010205...ickles001.shtml

 

On the other hand, the Seattle Seahawks running back Shaun Alexander will win the NFC rushing title this season and he'll lead the NFL if he holds off the Colts' Edgerrin James and New York Jets' Curtis Martin today.

 

Alexander's 1,616 rushing yards give him a 66-yard advantage over James and a 72-yard lead over Martin heading into the final weekend. Alexander's offensive linemen, obviously, would love to see their man win -- if only for the gift they might receive.

 

Alexander gave all his blockers iPods after last season for helping him reach contract incentives that boosted his salary. But what about this year?

 

"It's going to be fun looking for the rushing title gift," Alexander said.

 

"A couple of guys asked for Ferraris. I don't know if we'll go that far, but that's right around the limit."

As much as everyone acts hypocritical on athletes going for bonuses as some kind of selfish act.  How many people here are contractors or work on commission and when they do their job they try to get as much money as they can.  Athletes are just as human and have faults just like everyone else.  It's just these people who have nothing else that put athletes on pedestals.............

 

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I for one have no problem with athletes going for individual ahievements and records, I was cheering Manning on to #49 all season from my cheap seats.

 

But I think the actual argument here is whether or not the blame for Alexander NOT getting the record falls on Holmgren's shoulders or not. And IMHO I think the number of carries on the season alone shows that Holmgren gave Alexander ample opportunity to win the title.

 

But if you really want to blame someone I say let's place the blame where it belongs, squarely on the shoulders of Mike Martz. If he had been a better coach the Rams never would have let the Jets tie the game last week and then Martin wouldn't have gained the additional 24 yards that he got in the OT period and Alexander would be out purchasing his Title Gifts right now.

 

As for proving himself himself worthy of a new big contract? When the people involved in negotiating SA's next contract start talking I am quite sure they will spend more time discussing the 1866 yards from scrimmage he DID gain than they will the 2 yards he DIDN'T get. Not to mention his 20 TDs on the year.

[Bonehand]

But I think the actual argument here is whether or not the blame for Alexander NOT getting the record falls on Holmgren's shoulders or not. And IMHO I think the number of carries on the season alone shows that Holmgren gave Alexander ample opportunity to win the title.

 

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Exactly. Holmgren has often stated that in his version of the west coast offense, his ideal ratio of pass to rush is 60%/40%. The Hawks had 1034 offensive plays in the regular season, with 468 of them rushes, for 45%. So to say the Holmgren is underutilizing SA, and that is what prevented him from missing the record, while Holmgren actually devoted more of his offense to the running game than he usually would due to Alexander's success, is at best, a stretch of logic.

[phenom]

Exactly. Holmgren has often stated that in his version of the west coast offense, his ideal ratio of pass to rush is 60%/40%. The Hawks had 1034 offensive plays in the regular season, with 468 of them rushes, for 45%. So to say the Holmgren is underutilizing SA, and that is what prevented him from missing the record, while Holmgren actually devoted more of his offense to the running game than he  usually would due to Alexander's success, is at best, a stretch of logic.

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Ummm okay so Holmgren's version of the WCO should be 60/40 pass to rush. Maybe that's because before he had Favre as his QB in Green Bay.

 

As far Holmgren as a coach he sucks. That's it, bottom line. When he came to Seattle in 99 he didn't do crap in the AFC West. 3 years and he took the Seahawks to the playoffs once and they lost in wildcard. So they benefitted when they got switched out of a more competitive division and to the NFC and specifically the NFC West arguably the worst division in the league. So in 6 years Holmgren has won 1 division title (this year) and that was this year with a 9-7 record.

 

His playoff record; he has won......let's see add the 1, we'll count this, ummmm ZERO playoff games. So tell me what is Holmgren doing that's impressing you so much that we should go with his 60/40 pass to rush policy............

Edited January 5, 2005 by phenom

[godtomsatan]

So in 6 years Holmgren has won 1 division title (this year) and that was this year with a 9-7 record. 

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Technically speaking, this is the 2nd division title. 3rd playoff appearance in 6 years. Time to win a game in January.

[Bonehand]

His playoff record; he has won......let's see add the 1, we'll count this, ummmm ZERO playoff games.  So tell me what is Holmgren doing that's impressing you so much that we should go with his 60/40 pass to rush policy............

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Sheesh phenom, debating you is like trying to nail Jello to a wall.

Whether or not Holmgren sucks as a coach, Are you actually advocating that the Hawks chuck their entire offensive system midseason so that they can run Alexander constantly?

Edited January 5, 2005 by Bonehand

[Bill Swerski]

Technically speaking, this is the 2nd division title. 3rd playoff appearance in 6 years. Time to win a game in January.

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I don't buy into the notion that Holmgren doesn't know what he's doing. Come on, look what he did in Green Bay. He molded Favre into the great player that he is today. He built a dominant defense around Reggie White, Gilbert Brown, and LeRoy Butler. Oh, and he won a Super Bowl.

 

Sure, Holmgren hasn't gotten it done in Seattle, but let's give credit where credit is due.

[phenom]

Sheesh phenom, debating you is like trying to nail Jello to a wall. 

Whether or not Holmgren sucks as a coach, Are you actually advocating that the Hawks chuck their entire offensive system midseason so that they can run Alexander constantly?

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What offensive system? Oh you mean passing more? With Hasselbeck? Yeah that did well this year.

 

 

Seattle lost to Dallas and Arizona. They got swept by the Rams. They got blown out at home by Buffalo 38-9. Oh by the way Hasselbeck threw 38 times to the Seahawks 17 rushing att's in that game. Way to maintain that ratio............

Edited January 5, 2005 by phenom

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

WWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!

[Bonehand]

What offensive system?  Oh you mean passing more?  With Hasselbeck?  Yeah that did well this year.

Seattle lost to Dallas and Arizona.  They got swept by the Rams.  They got blown out at home by Buffalo 38-9.  Oh by the way Hasselbeck threw 38 times to the Seahawks 17 rushing att's in that game.  Way to maintain that ratio............

 

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Alright! Alright! UNCLE! You Win! Holmgren Sucks, The Hawks suck, Hasselbeck Sucks! As a matter of fact, I suck for having season tickets for such a sucking suck of a team.

[I Like Soup]

Can you imagine Barry Sanders pulling this? I didn't think so.

 

And the one yard run for the touchdown is only a big deal now because he needed a yard to tie CMart and two yards to win the title. Who would have thought it would come down to a yard or two. Not any of you I would bet.

[Jrick35]

His playoff record; he has won......let's see add the 1, we'll count this, ummmm ZERO playoff games. So tell me what is Holmgren doing that's impressing you so much that we should go with his 60/40 pass to rush policy............

Very clever.

 

Let's see Shaun Alexander had, ummm 353 Carries this year, uhhh carry the one, for about 1696 yds rushing. And then 5-3 = 2 and that makes the 353 carries this year the most in a season for his entire career, add the 4 giving him 20 TD's on the year, factor in the 3 wins in the last 4 weeks to arrive at, ummm oh yeah a DIVISION TITLE and you find all of this to = Holmgren sucks and doesn't use Alexander enough.

 

If there is one glaring weakness in the Seattle Seahawks it's their WR's. These guys come into every season being overhyped and yet they can't even catch a cold.

 

But what Seattle does have is a better than average QB, an excellent runner, a Super Bowl winning coach and a decent defense for the most part.

 

But why SA did not get the rushing title has nothing to do with anything you are arguing about. Whether or not Holmgren sucks as a coach has nothing to do with the fact that even if SA got that carry at the goalline Sunday he still wouldn't have won the Rushing Title outright, he would only have tied Martin.

[Jrick35]

When did THAT ever matter?

 

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True, true.

[phenom]

 

But why SA did not get the rushing title has nothing to do with anything you are arguing about. Whether or not Holmgren sucks as a coach has nothing to do with the fact that even if SA got that carry at the goalline Sunday he still wouldn't have won the Rushing Title outright, he would only have tied Martin.

 

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Ok now you need to make the transition from one person to another. I don't care about that 1 yard. I don't care about Hasselebecks 1 yard TD either. Someone else made that argument about that one yard; IMO it wouldn't have come down to that one play if prior events were different.

 

 

I'm looking at strictly their play calling on their 9 drives. Every drive where Alexander had more than 2 carries they scored a TD. In between the Seahawks 2nd and 9th drive those 6 series Alexander got 7 carries. The Seahawks ran 32 plays. That's mishandling the Seahawks best player and that's JMO. Now maybe you think the Seahawks are better with Hasselbeck throwing to those WR's that you describe can't catch a cold.

 

And your assertion that Hasselbeck is a better than avg QB I disagree with. He is the 17th best QB according to the QB rating, He has the 18th best completion % with QB's with at least 10 starts (I took out Patrick Ramsey and Tim Rattay who had better %'s but only started 9 games each), He is 14th best in passing yards and 11th in yards per game, 10th in TD passes and tied with AJ Feely and Jake Delhomme for 9th in INT's with 15...........