UFC 121

[wildcat2334]

change what fact, that you have 2 examples and I can think of maybe 2 more off the top of my head. so outta 1696 players, 32 - 53 man rosters. 4 players never played football in college, who are in the NFL today. And you question why Lesnar cant do it, when less than 1%, .0023 of the NFL consists of what you are saying.

 

Seems you may wanna look in the mirror before you start dishing out the name callin.

 

 

Funny thing is when I read someone like yourself who would be nothing more than mince meat around this site, let alone in MMA, tell us Lesnar isnt all that. Dude has been Ko'd once. And lost by submission in his first fight, after he nearly killed Frank Mir in the first 40 seconds of that fight. Im a huge Lesnar fan, but a realist. Lesnar is the strongest man in the sport, and I Love his tenacity, but he needs to fight more controlled. His wildness gets him caught, way too often. And I think without a shadow of a doubt, he punks Cain with a better game plan.

 

 

seriously, what is this yer 5th name? private ryan, sarge, dallas sooner, on and on - I have zero interest in discussing anything with you

[Living the Dream]

seriously, what is this yer 5th name? private ryan, sarge, dallas sooner, on and on - I have zero interest in discussing anything with you

 

 

since when do you discuss anything with anyone. You have an elitist attitude, where you THINK you are never wrong. Shovel complete crap (Pac-10), or anything else you think you know everything about down our throats. Only to be proven wrong daily, and think the more you say something, the more likely it is going to happen. When general facts usually conflict your opinion.

[piratesownninjas]

sorry my man- couldn't be more wrong. Plenty of athletes have jumped to the NFL from playing other sports in college- Gates, etc - if they are good enough athletes - happens all the time.

 

Lesnar grew up loving and playing football - and a little fun fact.

 

Did you happen to know, Stephen Neal, who beat Lesnar in '99 for the NCAA wrestling title, is an 8 year NFL vet and OG for the Patriots???

 

guess what??? Neal never played football in college, either

 

nice try

Two players is all you can think of... It's a rarity, not the norm. Lesnar was also trying to make the Vikings as a 30 year old, not in his early 20's like Neal. It doesn't happen all the time.

 

 

A) it does happen more than you think

the dude who beat Lesnar did it- so PON Lesnar jock-swinging can stop. Lesnar isn't all that

A. Twice doesn't equate to all the time.

B. And here is a perfectly clear example of how you know not what you're talking about. I cannot stand Lesnar at all. If you go back and read the past UFC threads on here, especially both Mir/Lesnar fights you'll see how much I dislike him. I hate the way he acts after victories, and I'm anti-wrestler. I'm a BJJ practicioner, so I hate the ground and pound or the lay and pray methods of fighting...

 

The fact is, that while I'm not great, nor do I claim to be great, I do take classes three nights a week for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai with a little boxing worked in. I roll with a few former D1 wrestlers as well as a 4 time expert level NAGA champion. Point being is that I see how talented those guys are. How strong and how insane they are about their craft. Two of the guys are Bellator fighters right now, which is a rung below the big boys in the UFC and Strikeforce...

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I've been around professional MMA guys, and trained with them. I know what talent is and how hard it is to be world class as a wrestler, BJJ, Judo guy. To sit there and say Lesnar is spare is either asinine or ignorant. I think it's probably ignorance on your part, so you get a pass, but I challange you to go to a legit gym and just roll for a week. It will give you some perspective on what really goes into, and you'll also have a better idea of what you're watching.

 

If I recall correctly, Living the Dream has years of Judo under his belt and can say the same thing I just did. If you haven't trained it or your only knowledge is from Spike TV and Pay Per Views then you're probably no different then a football fan that wants to see 40 yard passes every play. I really dislike Lesnar, but the most maddening thing about Sherdog forums or with MMA fans in general is the Lesnar divide. Prior to his beating at the hands of Cain he was either the greatest ever, or a fraud. Reality is he's neither. No one is unstoppable in this game. If you last long enough, you'll eventually get rocked. A few years ago Liddell was untouchable. Now just getting touched on the chin puts him to sleep. Everyone loses, but the fact that Lesnar came in and took on a former UFC heavyweight champion in Frank Mir in his second career fight is astonishing. He's fought a who's who in MMA heavyweights. In under 3 years he's devestated Frank Mir twice although lost one, knocked out Randy Couture, destroyed Heath Herring's career and subbed Shane Carwin is insane.

Realize he had never trained for MMA before all of this. Don't like his personality. I don't, but to trash him in ring is insane.

[piratesownninjas]

seriously, what is this yer 5th name? private ryan, sarge, dallas sooner, on and on - I have zero interest in discussing anything with you

Dude, he's not stirring up trash or acting like a dick. He's giving you an opinion of someone who didn't start watching MMA because that Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonner guy were really fun to watch.

[piratesownninjas]

Oh bold prediction... Cain's title run won't last long. I think Frank Mir back to his natural weight and Shane Carwin pose matchup nightmares for him.

[wildcat2334]

and private ryan calls me elitist -wow.

 

Never claimed to be an MMA expert pon- but thanks for the resume I am sure your BJJ skills are outstanding

 

I made a simple point, Lesnar was obviously not a) skilled enough or tough enough to cut in the NFL - probably both..period. end of story. You can say u don't like Lesnar all you want- the fact is u certainly got fired up that this freak wrestler ended up failing pretty badly as an NFL player, which was his dream. Maybe because u roll around with wrestlers?? deflect all u want to

 

I just find it funny I get called out for making a moronic statement when the dude who beat him at the NCAA's has played in the NFL for years with ZERO college football experience.........

 

alrighty then - catch u and private ryan later

[piratesownninjas]

and private ryan calls me elitist -wow.

 

Never claimed to be an MMA expert pon- but thanks for the resume I am sure your BJJ skills are outstanding

I made a simple point, Lesnar was obviously not a) skilled enough or tough enough to cut in the NFL - probably both..period. end of story. You can say u don't like Lesnar all you want- the fact is u certainly got fired up that this freak wrestler ended up failing pretty badly as an NFL player, which was his dream. Maybe because u roll around with wrestlers?? deflect all u want to

 

I just find it funny I get called out for making a moronic statement when the dude who beat him at the NCAA's has played in the NFL for years with ZERO college football experience.........

 

alrighty then - catch u and private ryan later

The fact is, that while I'm not great, nor do I claim to be great, I do take classes three nights a week for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

I'm not great, but my teacher is a world class grappler and near elite MMA figter.

You clearly have no idea as to what you're talking about and this is how you go about it. You talk like you're a MMA expert, but when I put you to task you run away. Like I said earlier, I'm no expert practicioner, but I am involved in the sport. I've experianced getting choked out, working positioning, sprawls, high guard, low, butterfly gaurd... It's doesn't make me an expert, but I know more than the everyday TUF fan. Instead of being a dick, maybe listen to someone who has a little more insight as to what is going on.

 

You mentioned two athletes who made the jump. Both in there early 20's. Had Brock Lesnar went straight into the NFL he may have have a different outcome. Realize that when he jumped into the NFL he was nearly 30 and needed time to develop. Why would the Vikings develop a 30 year old D tackle? You don't develop a 30 year old when you already have two of the best in the league.

 

And it is morons like you that are poisoning MMA culture. You know nothing, wear your affliction shirts while getting smashed with your frat boys and just want someone to bleed. You have no idea the science that goes into this, no idea the fine details that are worked out over years and years of intense training. I bet you're one of the clowns that would have booed Royce Gracie in the early 90's. Go watch the WWE.

Edited November 5, 2010 by piratesownninjas

[wildcat2334]

And it is morons like you that are poisoning MMA culture. You know nothing, wear your affliction shirts while getting smashed with your frat boys and just want someone to bleed. You have no idea the science that goes into this, no idea the fine details that are worked out over years and years of intense training. I bet you're one of the clowns that would have booed Royce Gracie in the early 90's. Go watch the WWE.

 

 

good stuff - you have it all figured out don't you.

 

I am in neither camp, but honestly not sure which is worse, the affliction shirt wearing crowd or the know-it all MMA purists that like to spout off about how they are the real fans and the experts and everyone else doesn't know chit. yer a piece of work

[Furd]

The Lesnar hate across the board for MMA long timers and newbies is insane.

 

Well, I think the "hate" for Lesnar has diminished quite a bit since his change in attitude following his illness.

 

I like the guy. He is a monster - undoubtedly one of the toughest men on the planet. And he is raw and to a large extent untested. But he has crumpled in both fights in which he has been tagged in the mouth. Carwin and Velasquez are fierce strikers to be sure, which undoubtedly has something to do with it.

 

Who knows - maybe he can take some shots? I'd like to see him fight a guy like Junior Dos Santos. I think that Lesnar would overwhelm Dos Santos but maybe we'd see if Lesnar can take a few shots and defeat a guy who is still able to move and breath after administering them.

[Living the Dream]

And it is morons like you that are poisoning MMA culture. You know nothing, wear your affliction shirts while getting smashed with your frat boys and just want someone to bleed. You have no idea the science that goes into this, no idea the fine details that are worked out over years and years of intense training. I bet you're one of the clowns that would have booed Royce Gracie in the early 90's. Go watch the WWE.

 

 

good stuff - you have it all figured out don't you.

 

I am in neither camp, but honestly not sure which is worse, the affliction shirt wearing crowd or the know-it all MMA purists that like to spout off about how they are the real fans and the experts and everyone else doesn't know chit. yer a piece of work

 

 

no joke, you are in the Im smarter than everyone else at everything camp. I can watch this and have a controlled discussion on the subject, but my opinion is fact camp.

 

Ive never owned an afflication shirt, nor do I watch every MMA event. And when I do, I head to BWW for the fight for free, and I usually stand in the bar because I dont get there until 10:30 only to see the main events. I am hardly a know it all, about alot of these fighters, but Im aware enough to see Lesnar is a freight train coming outta the gate, and he usually gets hit because he isnt controlled. Id destroy someone like that, (who wasnt a professional MMA fighter), as in Judo you use their aggresiveness against them. Their momentum crushes them with a throw. And when they are in lala land after a throw, they will be choked out in less than a minute. No punches needed.

 

 

 

Cain and carwin both clocked Lesnar. Lesnar survived Carwin because he wore himself out hitting Lesnars forearms. Cain was much more precise with his punches, and more controlled and his shots were more effective as they hit pay dirt almost every one of them. Fighters strengths and weaknesses decide most fights. Carwin lost to Lesnar because he thought he had him stunned and never feared a submission. He went for it and ran outta gas. Carwin would probably destroy Cain, as he is superior in almost every aspect of his game, and they are very similar fighters. Carwin would know he is the more skilled fighter with heavier hands, and can wait for Cain to make the mistake. Lesnar still hasnt learned this. its like in the NFL, the superior team kicking onside kicks and trick plays all game, when they could win by 3 Tds playing straight up. Lesnar needs to learn this quick, he takes way too much punishment, when he doesnt have too. And it cost him the Cain fight, and could have cost him Carwin too. The Mir fight, Lesnar didnt respect Mir at all, thought he would just destroy him early, as he did. But he didnt finish him, and Mir caught his leg and ended the fight.

 

Lesnar should have lost his last 2 fights, but has more talent than either of them. But self control and a clean head are key in this sport, and Lesnar has neither right now. he has been in the sport 3 years and has only a handful of fights under his belt. But he needs to learn self control, wait for your opponent to make a mistake and know you are the superior fighter to take advantage. Instead of putting yourself in harms way and taking unneeded chances you dont need to take.

 

BTW, GSP is the pound for pound best fighter in the sport. He is young, athletic, skilled, patient, and stronger than anyone else at his division. No other weight class has someone so dominate. Lesnar could be this in the heavy weight division, but he lacks patience, and his skills are still very raw.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Living the Dream

[Gopher]

Really looking forward to GSP pounding the crap out of Koscheck. What a tool... picking a fight with a trainer, basically. Grow up.

[piratesownninjas]

BTW, GSP is the pound for pound best fighter in the sport. He is young, athletic, skilled, patient, and stronger than anyone else at his division. No other weight class has someone so dominate. Lesnar could be this in the heavy weight division, but he lacks patience, and his skills are still very raw.

And it's not even close. GSP has the fact that he's as skilled as it gets, his gameplanning is as good as it gets, his attitude is as good as it gets and his god given ability is as good as it gets. A few months ago I would have argued Fedor for the title, but his over confidence and handing someone a triangle multiple times leads me to believe he thought he was unbeatable and was over confident. Something we've never and probably will never see out of GSP.

Elite Skill+Respect for everyone+God given ability+Desire=GSP. He is the epitome of what an MMA fighter should try to be.

 

And this is coming from a BJ Penn fan.

 

Penn still takes him in a submission grappling match though...

 

Really looking forward to GSP pounding the crap out of Koscheck. What a tool... picking a fight with a trainer, basically. Grow up.

Funny thing is that it's even worse than what you said. It wasn't a coach, but a medic. Kos doesn't realize that there is a big difference between a medic and a nurse. I respect Kos for fighting on short notice and taking elite fighters to the limit, but the guy smells of dumb frat boy jock.

[piratesownninjas]

or the know-it all MMA purists that like to spout off about how they are the real fans and the experts and everyone else doesn't know chit. yer a piece of work

As a long time fan I feel the need to explain it to the people getting into it. I have no issues with new fans getting into it. The more publicity means more revenue which means more events and organizations. I'm all for the guys at my gym getting paid better.

And I don't spout off to the newer fans about how they don't know "chit" When I'm at a friends house watching a PPV I'll explain whats going on to the newer guys who are asking questions.

When a new guy comes into the gym wanting to get into BJJ I'll roll with him. I don't go for a choke or a sub unless he's being a prick. Instead I walk through whats happening and what should he should be doing. I'm extremely welcoming to new viewers and participants.

The more you know about MMA, the more it becomes an art. I just want the new fans to be smart about what they're watching. To realize that these guys are world class, and that if you're booing guys grappling and going for subs then you're missing the point about MMA.

I do spout off when someone who clearly doesn't know what they're talking about starts making outlandish statements and claims, gets corrected, and still goes off spouting stupidity. It's those fans that I don't like. Don't disrespect the sport or the athletes.

Edited November 5, 2010 by piratesownninjas

[Gopher]

Funny thing is that it's even worse than what you said. It wasn't a coach, but a medic. Kos doesn't realize that there is a big difference between a medic and a nurse. I respect Kos for fighting on short notice and taking elite fighters to the limit, but the guy smells of dumb frat boy jock.

Yeah, I meant medic (not trainer). I agree... I always liked/respected Koscheck, just because it seemed like he was always willing to fight anybody, anytime, any place... even on short notice, just to get another fight under his belt (even if he knew he might get his butt kicked). But, he's come across as a complete idiot on the show. Then he wants to talk in the interviews about how he's "out-smarting" GSP by getting George to give away some of his fighters' secrets/weaknesses. Give me a break. George could out-smart that dude in a coma.

[piratesownninjas]

Yeah, I meant medic (not trainer). I agree... I always liked/respected Koscheck, just because it seemed like he was always willing to fight anybody, anytime, any place... even on short notice, just to get another fight under his belt (even if he knew he might get his butt kicked). But, he's come across as a complete idiot on the show. Then he wants to talk in the interviews about how he's "out-smarting" GSP by getting George to give away some of his fighters' secrets/weaknesses. Give me a break. George could out-smart that dude in a coma.

Kos has always been like that. You get a great fighter with a great work ethic with a horrible character. Although it was awesome to see him get Paul Dailey so bad that Dailey did something to get kicked out of the organization.

I'd love to see Leban Vs Kos for old times sake. Although someone would have to move up or come down.

[GWPFFL BrianW]

no joke, you are in the Im smarter than everyone else at everything camp. I can watch this and have a controlled discussion on the subject, but my opinion is fact camp.

 

Ive never owned an afflication shirt, nor do I watch every MMA event. And when I do, I head to BWW for the fight for free, and I usually stand in the bar because I dont get there until 10:30 only to see the main events. I am hardly a know it all, about alot of these fighters, but Im aware enough to see Lesnar is a freight train coming outta the gate, and he usually gets hit because he isnt controlled. Id destroy someone like that, (who wasnt a professional MMA fighter), as in Judo you use their aggresiveness against them. Their momentum crushes them with a throw. And when they are in lala land after a throw, they will be choked out in less than a minute. No punches needed.

 

 

 

Cain and carwin both clocked Lesnar. Lesnar survived Carwin because he wore himself out hitting Lesnars forearms. Cain was much more precise with his punches, and more controlled and his shots were more effective as they hit pay dirt almost every one of them. Fighters strengths and weaknesses decide most fights. Carwin lost to Lesnar because he thought he had him stunned and never feared a submission. He went for it and ran outta gas. Carwin would probably destroy Cain, as he is superior in almost every aspect of his game, and they are very similar fighters. Carwin would know he is the more skilled fighter with heavier hands, and can wait for Cain to make the mistake. Lesnar still hasnt learned this. its like in the NFL, the superior team kicking onside kicks and trick plays all game, when they could win by 3 Tds playing straight up. Lesnar needs to learn this quick, he takes way too much punishment, when he doesnt have too. And it cost him the Cain fight, and could have cost him Carwin too. The Mir fight, Lesnar didnt respect Mir at all, thought he would just destroy him early, as he did. But he didnt finish him, and Mir caught his leg and ended the fight.

 

Lesnar should have lost his last 2 fights, but has more talent than either of them. But self control and a clean head are key in this sport, and Lesnar has neither right now. he has been in the sport 3 years and has only a handful of fights under his belt. But he needs to learn self control, wait for your opponent to make a mistake and know you are the superior fighter to take advantage. Instead of putting yourself in harms way and taking unneeded chances you dont need to take.

 

BTW, GSP is the pound for pound best fighter in the sport. He is young, athletic, skilled, patient, and stronger than anyone else at his division. No other weight class has someone so dominate. Lesnar could be this in the heavy weight division, but he lacks patience, and his skills are still very raw.

 

I'm no expert but Brock's strategy was not too bright. He was in fact out of control and Cain just made him pay. Being from Minnesota I'm a huge Brock fan, and want to see him come back and be successful. The guy is still evolving as a fighter. If he stays motivated, he'll be back. The Heavyweight division is sick!

[piratesownninjas]

I'm no expert but Brock's strategy was not too bright. He was in fact out of control and Cain just made him pay. Being from Minnesota I'm a huge Brock fan, and want to see him come back and be successful. The guy is still evolving as a fighter. If he stays motivated, he'll be back. The Heavyweight division is sick!

Dead on. Lesnar's gameplan didn't look great in hindsight. With his size, strength and speed I would think against a much smaller opponent like Cain he should have came out of the gate going for a double leg takedown. Make Cain throw punches while backing up or worrying about a sprawl instead of letting him come to you and dictate the action. I still don't think there is anyone that can stop a Lesnar double leg takedown at the start of a fight. He does need to start using his strengths better.

And I do think he'll have the title again.I think the HW division in the UFC has a ton of talent, and each guy can beat so and so, but will get beaten by another so and so... As in Cain may have Lesnars number, but I fully think Frank Mir would kill Cain, and we all know Lesnar will continue to eat Mir.This is the best that division has ever been. We're getting into Pride's prime as far as HW talent goes.

[theprofessor]

As a novice, what is easy to see, is that Lesnar has no smarts and definately has NO chin. When he wins, he wins because of his size and strength on the ground. He hasn't proved he can stand and trade punches with anyone.

[piratesownninjas]

As a novice, what is easy to see, is that Lesnar has no smarts and definately has NO chin. When he wins, he wins because of his size and strength on the ground. He hasn't proved he can stand and trade punches with anyone.

He wins on Size, Strenght AND Wrestling ability. He's not a striker, although he tries to stand every fight. If he's smart from here on out he goes for a takedown and ground and pounds victories. I'd also say that saying he has no chin is a bit premature. He's been rocked twice... By Carwin and Cain. Two of the best strikers at HW in the world.

[theprofessor]

Sorry, seen enough ...... no chin!!