Did anyone else find this NOT surprising?

[Squeegiebo]

[Balzac]

Dunno, explain why the Big Red Machine never averaged more than 20,000?

Baseball is as popular as it has ever been. Franchise values are incomparable to what they were 15 years ago. The lack of competitive balance is irrelevant.

 

The steroid thing will be an issue, but if the players strike didn't drive fans from the game, this won't either.

 

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lack of competitive balance is quite relevant - comparing present day values to those of 15 years ago, however, is not.

 

I agree that the steroid issue will only be a blip in the long run - people have known that this goes on for years . . . I'm not sure why anyone is acting surprised by it.

[Bill Swerski]

Dunno, explain why the Big Red Machine never averaged more than 20,000?

 

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Because that was in the '70s, when teams didn't need to bring in 2 million per year to have a competitive payroll.

 

Baseball is as popular as it has ever been.

 

Yeah, just ask the people in Montreal.

 

Franchise values are incomparable to what they were 15 years ago

 

That's called inflation. Do I need to give you an economics lesson?

 

The lack of competitive balance is irrelevant.

 

Oh, really? Is that why the fans in Kansas City stood up and turned their backs to the field during the seventh inning stretch when they were playing the Yankees last year?

 

MLB just eliminated a franchise and has a massive steroid scandal looming over its head, yet you're trying to convince me that everything's just fine?

[Hugh 0ne]

Yeah, just ask the people in Montreal.

 

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This just stuck out to me. When was baseball EVER popular in Montreal? That statement really has no relevance to the conversation:

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/montattn.shtml

 

In 35 years, they had more than the average major league attendance 5 times. Baseball was never popular in Montreal.

[Bill Swerski]

This just stuck out to me. When was baseball EVER popular in Montreal? That statement really has no relevance to the conversation:

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/montattn.shtml

 

In 35 years, they had more than the average major league attendance 5 times. Baseball was never popular in Montreal.

 

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Well, the Expos were in first place in August of '94 (when the players went on strike) and had Pedro, Keny Hill, Kirk Reuter, Moises Alou, Marquis Grissom, and Larry Walker on their squad. Seems to me that they could've won the WS that year. Apparently the fans thought so as well and were so pissed about the strike that they stopped going to the games over the next couple years.

 

In the other league, the White Sox were in first place and had the best pitching staff in the AL (McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere, Thigpen, Hernandez), along with other star position players like Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, and Lance Johnson. They averaged over 30,000 per game and had a season ticket holder base of over 20,000. They've struggled to average 25,000 per game since and their season ticket holder base is down to about 12,000.

Edited December 7, 2004 by Bill Swerski

[Balzac]

Well, the Expos were in first place in August of '94 (when the players went on strike) and had Pedro, Keny Hill, Kirk Reuter, Moises Alou, Marquis Grissom, and Larry Walker on their squad.  Seems to me that they could've won the WS that year.  Apparently the fans thought so as well and were so pissed about the strike that they stopped going to the games over the next couple years.

 

In the other league, the White Sox were in first place and had the best pitching staff in the AL (McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere, Thigpen, Hernandez), along with other star position players like Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, and Lance Johnson.  They averaged over 30,000 per game and had a season ticket holder base of over 20,000.  They've struggled to average 25,000 per game since and their season ticket holder base is down to about 12,000.

 

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That strike was the single biggest blow to the Expos' franchise. Half the team left over the next 2 year (most notably Pedro and Walker) - team was dead after that.

[Hugh 0ne]

That strike was the single biggest blow to the Expos' franchise.  Half the team left over the next 2 year (most notably Pedro and Walker) - team was dead after that.

 

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SI did a story on that team a while back. Guys on that team, including several that Swerski mentioned (I think they also had Tim Wallach, Raines, Dawson, Carter, and several others) said it was far and away the best team they had ever played on, and these were some great players saying this several years later.

[MrTed46]

I have something more shocking!!!

 

Bledsoe has more TDs than INT now.

WHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

[godtomsatan]

SI did a story on that team a while back. Guys on that team, including several that Swerski mentioned (I think they also had Tim Wallach, Raines, Dawson, Carter, and several others) said it was far and away the best team they had ever played on, and these were some great players saying this several years later.

 

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Dude, that was like the 1980 team that got beat by the Dodgers in the playoffs. The one year they led the MLB in attendance.

 

The 1994 team was a spectacular collection of talent, and there probably was a fallout after the strike, but shoot, DC gets a team and that's making a lot more people happy than the numbers of people sad in Montreal.

[Hugh 0ne]

Dude, that was like the 1980 team that got beat by the Dodgers in the playoffs. The one year they led the MLB in attendance.

 

The 1994 team was a spectacular collection of talent, and there probably was a fallout after the strike, but shoot, DC gets a team and that's making a lot more people happy than the numbers of people sad in Montreal.

 

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Well, I'm actually kind of proud that I was way off and know practically nothing about baseball. Thanks for clearing that up.

[godtomsatan]

Yeah, just ask the people in Montreal.

 

 

You know, since MLB moved a franchise last, in like 1973?, how many NBA, NFL, and teams have moved? Were the sports pronounced dead when the Raiders and Rams moved out of LA?

 

That's called inflation.  Do I need to give you an economics lesson?

 

 

This is in regards to my comments regarding franchise value. How many investments have you made over 15 years that had 1000% return?

 

Oh, really?  Is that why the fans in Kansas City stood up and turned their backs to the field during the seventh inning stretch when they were playing the Yankees last year?

 

 

They should have turned their back on the management for putting out such a crappy team. Fans in Oakland and Minnesota and Florida don't go to games either, but their organizations still manage to field competitive teams year after year. It's not the economics, it's the way the organizations are operated.

 

Baseball has ALWAYS had a competitive imbalance. There's been the Yankees and everyone else since 1920. Franchises figure out the way to exploit the economic system in place and it takes a bit of time for everyone else to catch up and the natural market advantages kick in. That's never going to change unless there's a equal distribution of the wealth thing, and in order for that to happen the big revenue clubs and the players union have to drop their objections. That will never happen.

 

MLB just eliminated a franchise and has a massive steroid scandal looming over its head, yet you're trying to convince me that everything's just fine? 

 

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Actually, MLB relocated a franchise from a 3,000,000 metro area to a 6,000,000 metro area. The steroid scandal will be forgotten in time, but will force the game to address some things, but it's not going to keep anyone away from the ballpark.

[Mark5]

As far as a consumer goes, it makes everything less spectacular in my eyes. Anytime something amazing happens now in Baseball whether the athlete is clean or not I assume he's not.

 

Thats called watching a triple A game That spot they did about Boston last year showing him bulking up was the nail in the coffin. I'm grouping Bonds with Pete Rose on this denial thing..

[Bill Swerski]

You know, since MLB moved a franchise last, in like 1973?, how many NBA, NFL, and teams have moved? Were the sports pronounced dead when the Raiders and Rams moved out of LA?

 

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The NFL has not suffered a strike and pissed off its fans like MLB has in the past decade. How much fan support do the MLB franchises in Pittsburgh, Miami, Tampa, Kansas City, Denver, and the south side of Chicago get in comparison to their respective NFL franchises? The comparison isn't even close.

 

Fans in small-payroll baseball team markets don't give a *** anymore and this attitude is clearly reflected in the attendance numbers. Even new stadiums can no longer attract fans in Detroit, Milwaukee, and Pittsburgh.

[Bill Swerski]

Fans in Oakland and Minnesota and Florida don't go to games either, but their organizations still manage to field competitive teams year after year. It's not the economics, it's the way the organizations are operated.

 

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And notice that neither of those teams have won anything, despite having Cy Young award winners on their staffs. And they WON'T win anything until they're able to spend as much on free agents as the Yankees and Red Sox.

[Big Score 1]

I'm just wondering why it took so long to catch him.

 

Pretty sure everbody here knew he was juicing up a coupla' years back. NFL's pee test must suck, or these kids are getting some really good masking agents.

[godtomsatan]

The NFL has not suffered a strike and pissed off its fans like MLB has in the past decade.  How much fan support do the MLB franchises in Pittsburgh, Miami, Tampa, Kansas City, Denver, and the south side of Chicago get in comparison to their respective NFL franchises?  The comparison isn't even close.

 

Fans in small-payroll baseball team markets don't give a *** anymore and this attitude is clearly reflected in the attendance numbers.  Even new stadiums can no longer attract fans in Detroit, Milwaukee, and Pittsburgh.

 

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Comparing the NFL and MLB is apples and oranges. I'm just saying that the NFL/NBA/NHL have been moving franchises a lot over the years and you single out a move from Montreal where it has been a cruddy situation for years as a sign that baseball's in the crapper.

 

Build a good team and the fans will come. That's always been the mantra and always will be. Milwaukee, Detroit, and Pittsburgh have been making horrible personnel moves for years. Attendance levels and revenue numbers are still up in all 3 of those cities with the new facilities and the values of the franchises are worth double and triple what the present owners paid for them.

[godtomsatan]

And notice that neither of those teams have won anything, despite having Cy Young award winners on their staffs.  And they WON'T win anything until they're able to spend as much on free agents as the Yankees and Red Sox.

 

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Except the Marlins won a WS in 2003.

[Bill Swerski]

Build a good team and the fans will come.

 

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So, why did only 1.7 million Marlins fans make it out to the ballpark this year? How is it that a franchise that miraculously upset the juggernaut Yankees in October of 2003 and is loaded with young, exciting players ranked 26th in attendance in 2004?

 

And where are all of the A's and Twins fans? Their teams have been in the playoffs for what? Three straight years now?

 

The bottom line is that MLB's popularity has suffered tremendously since the strike and is not improving. Fans are pissed off about the lack of competitive balance and the fact that the league allowed an admitted steroid user like Bonds to taint the holiest of holy sports records.

Edited December 8, 2004 by Bill Swerski

[JoJoTheWebToedBoy]

No Freakin way Boston took Roids. He tested positive because he brushed up against Barry Bonds accidently.......

[Turf Boy]

Baseball is as popular as it has ever been.

 

 

 

I don't think so.

 

I use to be a huge baseball fan. Growing up I loved the sport. I couldn't wait to get my hands on a paper to look at the MLB box scores. I loved walking onto a baseball field, playing baseball was the best.

 

They played baseball during world wars to entertain Americans. In 1994 there was plenty of money to go around. They struck out of greed plain and simple. I don't care who was more to blame, they lost me as a fan. I know quite a few people who feel the same way.

 

I don't know if attendence is up or down since 1994, I don't care. I know they lost alot of fans. Therefore the sport isn't as popular. Whatever attendence is now, it would be much higher without the strike in 1994. Baseball lost so much with that strike, mainly the love of the game.

 

I've thought guys have been juiced for years. Brady Anderson went from maybe 10 HRs in a year to 50. It had to be the ball was juiced....RIGHT! McGuire, Sosa, Bonds make a joke of Aaron, Mays & Ruth's accomplishments. A great year use to be 30-45 HRs, now it's 60-75. Makes me sick.

 

Back to football please.