so let's show DMD we can stay on "issues"

[dmarc117]

the middle class is going the way of the dinosaur. another reason why we need the migrant workers. they provide cheap labor. document them, dont tax them, let them work.

[Jimmy Neutron]

i agree and was also pushed away form the blue collar stuff all my high school buddies went to..

but we need blue collar ... what will become of the middle class.. who will buy stuff... not biaching you or anyone just saying that not everyone can make 100 g's and those that make 25 aren't going to make the economy very strong as there buying power is nill except for food and booze.

 

well most of the eu is socialist or semi socialist.... were will that lead??

 

I think we need to differentiate between "blue collar" and low/no-skill workers - they are not one and the same.

 

Like it or not, production/assembly line work is pretty low skill work. That's why so many $45/hr UAW workers have been replaced by less costly labor. I've seen the same thing with the company I work for, through the variance between workforces isn't nearly as high. Assembly jobs once held here in Utah @ $15/hr are now in Mexico @ $3.60/hr.

 

I think the best way for Americans to stay competitive is to change our area of focus. Any labor-intensive production is not going to be in our favor. We need to focus on innovation and service industries - create ideas and designs for the rest of the world to produce. The HUGH problem with that is that our education system is designed (maybe not designed, but effectively is) to fill low skill jobs. Far too many kids get out of k-12 with the ability to read, write and do math on a level just high enough to punch a time card and assemble widgets.

[Yukon Cornelius]

I think we need to differentiate between "blue collar" and low/no-skill workers - they are not one and the same.

 

The HUGH problem with that is that our education system is designed (maybe not designed, but effectively is) to fill low skill jobs. Far too many kids get out of k-12 with the ability to read, write and do math on a level just high enough to punch a time card and assemble widgets.

this is were u are right and the eu is way ahead of us...

[Ursa Majoris]

Any labor-intensive production is not going to be in our favor. We need to focus on innovation and service industries - create ideas and designs for the rest of the world to produce.

This is exactly why the government should be a major player in research into technologies that are likely hugh money spinners going forward. Hydrogen fuel, alternative energy, stem cells, etc, etc. Not saying the government needs to do all the research itself but it does need to foster the ideal conditions for it, including smoothing the way for universities and entrepreneurs.

 

this is were u are right and the eu is way ahead of us...

And Asia is way ahead of the both of us.

[Azazello1313]

 

this is why the american worker is not obsolete. americans getting paid more because they're worth more is the key to long-term economic prosperity. americans getting paid more by protectionist government anti-market fiat is the path to long-term economic ruin.

[Bill Swerski]

The HUGH problem with that is that our education system is designed (maybe not designed, but effectively is) to fill low skill jobs. Far too many kids get out of k-12 with the ability to read, write and do math on a level just high enough to punch a time card and assemble widgets.

 

Our education system is crap. Public schools have no discipline and graduate high school seniors with 4th grade reading levels, private schools cost an arm and a leg and often employ bottom-of-the-barrel teachers because they can't afford to pay much, and college is a laughable rip-off. It's gotten to the point where a high school diploma and GED mean nothing and a Bachelor's degree means that you've met expectations.

 

For those who don't want to go to (or pay for) college and work a white-collar job, technical school is the way to go. It's a lot cheaper and vocations like plumber and electrician are impossible to outsource and often have union protection. And if you work hard, a six-figure salary is very possible down the road.

[Controller]

Here's an interesting phenomenon that is occurring now...Good Radiologists are in short supply in the US, so their average salary has climbed to the $300-$400+K range. There are many radiologists in India willing to work for a lot less. So, some HMO's and other health providers have begun sending the images to India at a fraction of the cost, and they receive an overnight evaluation (smart use of taking advantage of time zone differences). In response, some states have enacted laws that require radiologists to be licensed in-state, effectively eliminating the low-cost, Indian competition. Is this protectionism? Are the Indian radiologists "dumping" their services here at prices well below US-licensed radiologists "costs"?

[DemonKnight]

For those who don't want to go to (or pay for) college and work a white-collar job, technical school is the way to go. It's a lot cheaper and vocations like plumber and electrician are impossible to outsource and often have union protection. And if you work hard, a six-figure salary is very possible down the road.

 

As an employee of one of the largest Proprietary Post-Secondary institutions in the country, I endorse this statement.

[yo mama]

Here's an interesting phenomenon that is occurring now...Good Radiologists are in short supply in the US, so their average salary has climbed to the $300-$400+K range. There are many radiologists in India willing to work for a lot less. So, some HMO's and other health providers have begun sending the images to India at a fraction of the cost, and they receive an overnight evaluation (smart use of taking advantage of time zone differences). In response, some states have enacted laws that require radiologists to be licensed in-state, effectively eliminating the low-cost, Indian competition. Is this protectionism? Are the Indian radiologists "dumping" their services here at prices well below US-licensed radiologists "costs"?

Totally depends on the nature of the services rendered. If they are fungible, then yes: we're being protectionist. But if we have US standards that other countries fail to meet, then its merely quality control. But I get the fact that people hide protectionism behind the guise of quality control all the time. Our nation's inability to get low-cost prescription drugs from trusted sources (like Canada) is a sterling example.

[Ursa Majoris]

Is this protectionism? Are the Indian radiologists "dumping" their services here at prices well below US-licensed radiologists "costs"?

If the Indian radiologists are up to the standard of Indian developers and Indian service centers, it's not protectionism, it's common sense. The quality of highly technical work coming from India is, by and large, rubbish. I don't want my x-rays interpreted by some fraudulent under-qualified underpaid idiot.

[dmarc117]

McDonalds May Outsource Drive-Thrus

 

In an effort to revitalize sales domestically, the nation's largest fast-food resaurant chain is looking into outsourcing the voice heard at drive up ordering. The move, which McDonalds hopes will allow them to provide individuals with clear, customer-friendly voices at a reduced cost, is part of a larger effort to revamp the drive-thru aspect of their business. McDonalds hopes that this effort will continue the recent surge in sales brought about by other developments like the addition of a healthier menu. CNNMoney Reports:

 

"If you're in L.A.... and you hear a person with a North Dakota accent taking your order, you'll know what we're up to," McDonald's Chief Executive Jim Skinner told investors during a presentation at the Bear Stearns Retail, Restaurants & Apparel Conference in New York.

 

atleast they are outsourcing to another state

[Ursa Majoris]

atleast they are outsourcing to another state

How does this reduce costs? Surely the guy mumbling your order back to you is still needed to hand the thing over to you like now, right?

[dmarc117]

How does this reduce costs? Surely the guy mumbling your order back to you is still needed to hand the thing over to you like now, right?

 

 

i guess the guy taking the orders is in some call center, not in the restaurant. the orders just pop up on a screen in the restaurant and someone fills it for you. they have one in the burbs here, but i havent been to it. no clue how it reduces costs. im assuming the paycheck isnt much different from working in a mcd's vs taking calls. cant wait til a guy from india is taking my big mac order and i get a 6piece mcnuggets.

[westvirginia]

i guess the guy taking the orders is in some call center, not in the restaurant. the orders just pop up on a screen in the restaurant and someone fills it for you. they have one in the burbs here, but i havent been to it. no clue how it reduces costs. im assuming the paycheck isnt much different from working in a mcd's vs taking calls. cant wait til a guy from india is taking my big mac order and i get a 6piece mcnuggets.

 

Heck, you don't need an indian dude to screw that up...

[dmarc117]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080327/tc_nm/att_workforce_dc

 

SAN ANTONIO, Texas (Reuters) - The head of the top U.S. phone company AT&T Inc (T.N) said on Wednesday it was having trouble finding enough skilled workers to fill all the 5,000 customer service jobs it promised to return to the United States from India.

 

"We're having trouble finding the numbers that we need with the skills that are required to do these jobs," AT&T Chief Executive Randall Stephenson told a business group in San Antonio, where the company's headquarters is located.

 

So far, only around 1,400 jobs have been returned to the United States of 5,000, a target it set in 2006, the company said, adding that it maintains the target.

 

Stephenson said he is especially distressed that in some U.S. communities and among certain groups, the high school dropout rate is as high as 50 percent.

 

his quote about our education system is spot on

 

"If I had a business that half the product we turned out was defective or you couldn't put into the marketplace, I would shut that business down," he said.

[whomper]

Free trade = good ...In the big picture, ALL participants in free trade agreement benefit. You can argue that globalization results in loss of national identity and/or autonomy, but the trend is unstoppable so arguing about it is a waste of time.

 

Gov't intervention in general = bad

 

The guy who made $54.68 per hour for screwing in headlights needs to realize that his job is gone and it aint comin' back. If the only way to win Michigan and Ohio is by lying to people and giving them false hope, then only Hillary can win those states.

 

 

Sad but so very very true. My industry was basically handed to China when the quotas on apparell and Textiles were lifted about 5 years ago. The other day we had a sales meeting and my boss said that China isnt as cheap as they used to be. Th workers are looking for benefits and better wages and there were other factors he mentioned as to why they arent as cheap as they were. It sounded to me like massive wishful thinking from a guy that saw the glory days of domestic production. Then I said to him do you seriously beleive any of our accounts that are entrenched in China would even for a second remotely consider producing here again ? He instantly answered no chance. The sad thing is and it kills me to admit it but the asian mills we deal with kick serious ass over the domestic mills. Not just in price but in work ethic , attention to detail, accountability, and quality of merchandise. When I write up an import order I do so with a clear head. When I write domestic orders I cringe. Our goods get tested when we deal with big retailers like Walmart , Express , Victorias secret etc. We usually have to send our goods to a testing facility called MTL and they do a 7 page 600 dollar test for everything under the sun. When we send them goods that were produced in the US it practically fails everything until we do it over about 3 times. My asian mill submitted goods from regular stock that wasnt even dyed to spec for a program I had with express last year and it passed every single requirement with flying colors on the first try. I was just staring at the test in disbelief. I almost brought it in the bathroom and abused my privates with it.

[yo mama]

I almost brought it in the bathroom and abused my privates with it.

[Ursa Majoris]

Mentioned this earlier but the outsourcing of IT development has been double edged. You can get it cheaper, fo sho, but it'll likely take longer, it'll be lower quality, there'll be more rework and collaboration will be nightmarish. Added to that is the fact that personnel churn in the Indian and Chinese development shops is astronomical due to the developers being able to jump ship every six months. Wages are skyrocketing and the differentials are rapidly eroding. Many companies have brought a lot of their development back in house.

[SuperBalla]

I finally figured out what NAFTA means...

[The Irish Doggy]

Many people benefit from it but many don't. I would like to see the deals re-negotiated not eliminated. If they get free access to our markets i would like to see leveling the playing field so we can compete better(Human rights/environmental standards) or forcing them to open their markets to our products.

 

 

I'm no expert on this, but here's tha part that hurts my head. Doesn't China tax the ever-living sh*t out of US goods, making it virtually impossible for American products to be sold there? And to make matters worse, we don't tax Chinese goods at a high rate making their products cheaper in the US than American made products. Can someone explain that to me, or better yet, justify the reasoning behind it? Or am I missing something?

 

A few thoughts...

 

Actually you may be surprised at how much is going on in China with human rights and social initiatives -at least in the business sector. All the "big box" retailers (Wal Mart, Sears/Kmart, Target, etc.) have programs in place that check factory safety, human rights, quality control, etc. Public pressure has really made this a necessity. Nobody wants to see their factory on 60 minutes with forced child labor. And last year's lead scare really put an increased focus on QC. Surprisingly, Sears/Kmart is the most aggressive in this area.

 

As for taxes/tariffs/duties. There are a number of controls in place. Whomper alluded to quotas (limit to the amount of certain goods that can be imported). There are also anti-dumping and counter-veiling duties. These are higher than normal duties placed on goods that are thought to be sold below market value usually due to some unfair practice at the country of origin. The local government may be giving an assist to the business for example. Raw materials are most ofter affected, but finished goods can be as well - Ball bearings, plastic bags, ironing boards are recent examples.

 

The bigger problem with China is that they control the exchange rate of RMBs to the USD. If China actually floated their RMBs on the world-wide market instead of controlling the exchange rate, you'd see the field level quite a bit. We're seeing change in this direction as China is getting there with pressure from other countries along with the US. IIRC, as recently as 5 years ago, you could get 12 RMB for every 1 USD. That is closer to 7:1 now, and we'll see 6:1 by next year most likely. That will definitely make Chinese goods more expensive, but be careful what you wish for. We're about to see inflation like we're not used to.

[The Holy Roller]

Back to the public education problems. I am not saying public education doesn't need an overhaul, it certainly does. But public education is not run in a business-like way. If you had a roll of product brought to your business that was not up to your quality standards or needs, you would not accept it. Public schools have to take everyone especially the ones that are considered "defective". Let's run public schools like a business. I'm all for it. If a kid can't produce (learn) then he gets sent back to his producers for retrofit or replacement. As it is now, if a kid gets a failing grade it is the system (school, teacher, admin) who gets the rap. No Child Left Behind is not the answer.

 

JMH2CW

[Ursa Majoris]

Back to the public education problems. I am not saying public education doesn't need an overhaul, it certainly does. But public education is not run in a business-like way. If you had a roll of product brought to your business that was not up to your quality standards or needs, you would not accept it. Public schools have to take everyone especially the ones that are considered "defective". Let's run public schools like a business. I'm all for it. If a kid can't produce (learn) then he gets sent back to his producers for retrofit or replacement. As it is now, if a kid gets a failing grade it is the system (school, teacher, admin) who gets the rap. No Child Left Behind is not the answer.

 

JMH2CW

Agree. Dump all public school troublemakers into special sink schools where they can be pains in the ass to each other, allowing the ones that want to work and graduate (still the majority) to do so.

[yo mama]

Agree. Dump all public school troublemakers into special sink schools where they can be pains in the ass to each other, allowing the ones that want to work and graduate (still the majority) to do so.

We can have the real "no child left behind" schools on the one hand, and the "you're on your own, dumbass" school on the other. I kinda like it.

[Ursa Majoris]

We can have the real "no child left behind" schools on the one hand, and the "you're on your own, dumbass" school on the other. I kinda like it.

The overall net result would be improved results. We pay far too much attention to the troublemaking little snots at the expense of kids who eventually just give up because the teachers are so busy with the crappy students.

 

One shot, then yer out.

[Controller]

The overall net result would be improved results. We pay far too much attention to the troublemaking little snots at the expense of kids who eventually just give up because the teachers are so busy with the crappy students.

 

One shot, then yer out.

 

We kinda have that already, if you can afford it - they're called private schools. Especially Catholic schools. Piss off Sister Superior more than once or twice and you will be sent packing. Offenses that get you expelled from private schools wouldn't even be punished in some public schools.