Income Taxes

[TheShiznit]

So what you are saying is that because we have freedoms under our constitution we do not create anything without the help of our federal government and without them these pioneers of industry would not have been able to create the wealth that they did? Even though there were no subsidies going directly to the creation of said invention/company/industry, though the inventors did have the use of rail, water, electricity, and roads, among other infrastructure that was provided by the government (local in most cases), in concert with the freedoms outlined in the constitution, without our federal government and our system of government none of these inventions/companies/industries would have been created? You learn well.....that is somewhat correct. It is only in civilized organized society can there be progress and wealth....without the government....there would be little militia's attacking those who have money....anyway...this is getting nowhere....you are right....there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever....the rest of the world as evidence notwithstanding.

 

Secondly; a poor Korean kid gets off a plane here in the US with his parents who don't speak English.So far we have United State immigration law helping out....next His mom works in a textile mill in Chamblee, GA and his dad is a construction laborer. The kid goes to schoolpublic or private school....cause if it is public...absent public school...this kid probably couldn't go to school...do you know what type of schooling this was? during the day and works at night helping his mom clean clothes. Eventually he does well enough throughout his school years and goes to Georgia Tech.Do you know if he got minority scholarships.....federally subsidized stafford loans....details are important. HE works at a convenience store while at Tech and gets a degree in industrial engineering. Makes some money doing that and decides to open up a convenience store, eventually he makes enough money to open another, and another, and another... Is that luck?What is luck could be a myriad of things....mentors showing up in his life at just the right moment....some people are never graced by the presence of a mentor....there are lots of things that you cannot even fathom that could have happened by chance that allowed him to see this as an opportunity.

 

To you, I'm sure, yes, I can already hear it: " He got lucky and opened them in the right locations in a city that was about to go through a huge economic expansion the likes of which no one ever could have anticipated because only a few decades prior you guys were a bunch of electricity and indoor plumbing-less, sister humpers, with a 2nd grade education and a dirt floor...who btw would still be that way if it weren't for you getting lucky and having the NE and the federal govt usher you into the 1930's...."I would never suggest everything you just said...that said...LOL.

 

I'm not wealthy, probably won't ever be wealthy... I make a good living, but not wealthy. And I never expect free shiat, I don't count on fortune or luck to bring free shiat my way, I work for and earn my shiat and expect others to recognize and respect that fact.

 

IOW....your luck is the fact someone will employ you that likes you. I am assuming this since you never answered the question. I am assuming you are an employee and not an owner...have you ever been an owner...partner....silent partner in a company....do you know what it is like? If not...how can you intelligently talk about it as if you have done it or went through it. I only ask this because there is a lot more luck needed to succeed in a privately held business...than being an employee....but there is some luck in that as well. My guess is you think someone hitting a 1% card on the river isn't luck...merely a matter of chance...which in my definition is a long shot...better known as luck.

[muck]

Everyone reading this thread really should read "Fooled by Randomness" by Nassim Taleb ... and then read "The Black Swan" by the same guy.

[AtomicCEO]

Everyone reading this thread really should read "Fooled by Randomness" by Nassim Taleb ... and then read "The Black Swan" by the same guy.

 

You cannot kickstart a dead horse

You just crush yourself and walk away

I don't care what the future holds

Cause I'm right here and I'm today

With your fingers you can touch me

 

I'm your black swan, black swan

But I made it to the top, made it to the top

This is f****d up, f***d up

[muck]

You cannot kickstart a dead horse

You just crush yourself and walk away

I don't care what the future holds

Cause I'm right here and I'm today

With your fingers you can touch me

 

I'm your black swan, black swan

But I made it to the top, made it to the top

This is f****d up, f***d up

 

 

I didn't realize Taleb wrote that...

[SEC=UGA]

IOW....your luck is the fact someone will employ you that likes you. I am assuming this since you never answered the question. I am assuming you are an employee and not an owner...have you ever been an owner...partner....silent partner in a company....do you know what it is like? If not...how can you intelligently talk about it as if you have done it or went through it. I only ask this because there is a lot more luck needed to succeed in a privately held business...than being an employee....but there is some luck in that as well. My guess is you think someone hitting a 1% card on the river isn't luck...merely a matter of chance...which in my definition is a long shot...better known as luck.

 

Essentially, yes I am self employed, I bring in deals and I get paid for doing so. Though, I do work for one of the largest Commercial real estate firms in the world.

 

I grew up in a family where my dad has pretty much always owned his own company with the exception of some time in the mid 70's and the early 80's. His current company has been going since 1990, not a lot of luck involved... but, a lot of hard work. He had a coupel of companies go under, not bad luck, simply bad timing or not enough cash on hand to carry the company through.

[Perchoutofwater]

There is no doubt there is a little bit of luck involved in starting a successful business. That being said with all the luck in the world a business will fail if not managed properly and and the business owner has not positioned themselves to take advantage of a break. Luck might have 2% to do with if a company is successful or not the other 98% is hard work and thinking ahead. It is really no different than buying a house hoping it goes up in value. You study what is most likely going to happen in that area to determine what the market is going to do. You buy the house, put some work into it to improve the property, and you sell 10 years later for more than you bought it for. Sure part of it is luck, but most of it is foresight and work. It's the same with business.

 

Everyone has luck, both good and bad. Overall for most people it all evens out int he end. It is how you react to both the good and the bad that will determine if you are successful or a failure. Good luck can be as bad for a business as bad luck. It can make a company over reach, and make bad estimates of future production. So, this luck argument, this guy is luck so he should pay more than the other guy is not valid in my opinion.

 

You won't find anyone arguing that those that make more should pay more. The argument is whether or not they should pay a larger percentage of their income. If you feel the need to give back, then why not give back via charities rather than through the government? Charities generally have lower administrative costs than the government, and then you can give to the causes you believe in in lieu of being forced to give to causes that fly in the face of your beliefs.

[TheShiznit]

There is no doubt there is a little bit of luck involved in starting a successful business. That being said with all the luck in the world a business will fail if not managed properly and and the business owner has not positioned themselves to take advantage of a break. Luck might have 2% to do with if a company is successful or not the other 98% is hard work and thinking ahead. It is really no different than buying a house hoping it goes up in value. You study what is most likely going to happen in that area to determine what the market is going to do. You buy the house, put some work into it to improve the property, and you sell 10 years later for more than you bought it for. Sure part of it is luck, but most of it is foresight and work. It's the same with business.

 

Everyone has luck, both good and bad. Overall for most people it all evens out int he end. It is how you react to both the good and the bad that will determine if you are successful or a failure. Good luck can be as bad for a business as bad luck. It can make a company over reach, and make bad estimates of future production. So, this luck argument, this guy is luck so he should pay more than the other guy is not valid in my opinion.

 

You won't find anyone arguing that those that make more should pay more. The argument is whether or not they should pay a larger percentage of their income. If you feel the need to give back, then why not give back via charities rather than through the government? Charities generally have lower administrative costs than the government, and then you can give to the causes you believe in in lieu of being forced to give to causes that fly in the face of your beliefs.

 

I want to have the problems of paying in the highest tax bracket.....that means the soup line is far away...that said...everything you said above I can agree with to a certain extent....except for the impact of luck. Example: I have a client that bought land...I guess about a small amount...some 500 acres to develop into a small little neighborhood. It was not within city limits, so they would have to have wells. He did every study...dug all the test wells the engineers told him to dig before he bought the land. Unbenounced to him....some 5 miles away....a shell oil gas pipeline had sprung a leak. It polluted the aquafier(sp) with MTBE and in turn polluted the wells. He was well into the having the First Phase complete and going to the second phase...where he starts to make money. Now two groups got screwed here....first phase buyer looking to turn a profit in 3rd phase of construction project...and the planner who is my client. So, now this little 2% luck you speak of controls 100% of his life at this point. So, while luck may play a small percentage of time spent...or as a whole of a body of work....the impact of luck in indeterminable. I don't think we will get disagreement here...NO?

[TheShiznit]

Lets talk about luck...as part of my job as a planner, I have to make recommendations to my client. Client has 250K and is very conservative....is 62 and 65 respectively. It is the 65yr olds money. They are looking for a certain amnt of monthly income. 65 yr old is unhealthy. I started talking with them in May of 2007 initially. I have had 4 appointments. Upon review, they would like an immediate income annuity with a life payout with a 15 year certain. IRR would be 6.5%. It would supply the necessary amount of income with a buffer. Now since they will not have access to principle, I suggest they take 50K of the 250K and put into their bank laddering some CD's. I call the bank and let them know what we are doing.

 

Client goes to bank and bank talks them into laddering all their money into CD's...so, the work I have done for over a year developing the needs of this client are destroyed because I did my job......now...is that luck? I don't sell bank CD's....I have never done those....I usually use the clients bank and never have any problems as they appreciate the referral. Now I have to send out a nasty note to the bank President and alert him that I will never use this bank ever again...and that any client I see with money in their bank will be encouraged to move it....great job and losing a referral source. Bad luck if I have ever seen....certainly was good fortune on part of the bank....because they certainly didn't earn this business at all.....I guess fortune has nothing to do with business....or the impact on business.

[westvirginia]

Lets talk about luck...as part of my job as a planner, I have to make recommendations to my client. Client has 250K and is very conservative....is 62 and 65 respectively. It is the 65yr olds money. They are looking for a certain amnt of monthly income. 65 yr old is unhealthy. I started talking with them in May of 2007 initially. I have had 4 appointments. Upon review, they would like an immediate income annuity with a life payout with a 15 year certain. IRR would be 6.5%. It would supply the necessary amount of income with a buffer. Now since they will not have access to principle, I suggest they take 50K of the 250K and put into their bank laddering some CD's. I call the bank and let them know what we are doing.

 

Client goes to bank and bank talks them into laddering all their money into CD's...so, the work I have done for over a year developing the needs of this client are destroyed because I did my job......now...is that luck? I don't sell bank CD's....I have never done those....I usually use the clients bank and never have any problems as they appreciate the referral. Now I have to send out a nasty note to the bank President and alert him that I will never use this bank ever again...and that any client I see with money in their bank will be encouraged to move it....great job and losing a referral source. Bad luck if I have ever seen....certainly was good fortune on part of the bank....because they certainly didn't earn this business at all.....I guess fortune has nothing to do with business....or the impact on business.

 

No luck to this. The bank was better at selling than you were.

[TheShiznit]

No luck to this. The bank was better at selling than you were.

 

Um no....banker lied....didn't show a financial calculation how long the money would last at a decent projection of an interest rate. Bad luck is me doing my job send business to the appropriate people and then losing all the business to something that won't work....only due to me doing my job.

[Atlanta Cracker]

Um no....banker lied....didn't show a financial calculation how long the money would last at a decent projection of an interest rate. Bad luck is me doing my job send business to the appropriate people and then losing all the business to something that won't work....only due to me doing my job.

 

 

Sounds like you should either:

 

a. Go to work somewhere that you can sell CDs as well as an annuity

b. Explain to people why CD's won't work in the process before sending them to the bank

c. Be thankful that you won't have to deal with these morans that took a year to decide to do something and then change their mind in 1 day.

 

 

Either way, I don't consider this scenario bad luck.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Atlanta Cracker

[Perchoutofwater]

Lets talk about luck...as part of my job as a planner, I have to make recommendations to my client. Client has 250K and is very conservative....is 62 and 65 respectively. It is the 65yr olds money. They are looking for a certain amnt of monthly income. 65 yr old is unhealthy. I started talking with them in May of 2007 initially. I have had 4 appointments. Upon review, they would like an immediate income annuity with a life payout with a 15 year certain. IRR would be 6.5%. It would supply the necessary amount of income with a buffer. Now since they will not have access to principle, I suggest they take 50K of the 250K and put into their bank laddering some CD's. I call the bank and let them know what we are doing.

 

Client goes to bank and bank talks them into laddering all their money into CD's...so, the work I have done for over a year developing the needs of this client are destroyed because I did my job......now...is that luck? I don't sell bank CD's....I have never done those....I usually use the clients bank and never have any problems as they appreciate the referral. Now I have to send out a nasty note to the bank President and alert him that I will never use this bank ever again...and that any client I see with money in their bank will be encouraged to move it....great job and losing a referral source. Bad luck if I have ever seen....certainly was good fortune on part of the bank....because they certainly didn't earn this business at all.....I guess fortune has nothing to do with business....or the impact on business.

 

Not bad luck. You failed to put yourself in the best possible position. Like others, have said, you should be selling your own CD's instead of a banks. You need to do a better job explaining to your possible clients what you are offering them. You also showed poor time management skills if you spent that much time on such a small account.

[Ursa Majoris]

If you feel the need to give back, then why not give back via charities rather than through the government? Charities generally have lower administrative costs than the government, and then you can give to the causes you believe in in lieu of being forced to give to causes that fly in the face of your beliefs.

It's likely we all donate to charities, perhaps even more than we realize, likely more than we itemize for tax.

 

I guess the biggest problem I have with charities isn't their religiousness (not all charities are run by churches, of course) but their being totally at the mercy of their donors and, through them, the economy. Right now for instance, charitable giving is way down at a time when it could be argued it's needed more than ever. The gubment doesn't have that problem - it can be reasonably consistent through economic cycles.

 

This isn't to argue that all charity should funnel through the gubment but there is room - and need - for both.

[Perchoutofwater]

It's likely we all donate to charities, perhaps even more than we realize, likely more than we itemize for tax.

 

I guess the biggest problem I have with charities isn't their religiousness (not all charities are run by churches, of course) but their being totally at the mercy of their donors and, through them, the economy. Right now for instance, charitable giving is way down at a time when it could be argued it's needed more than ever. The gubment doesn't have that problem - it can be reasonably consistent through economic cycles.

 

This isn't to argue that all charity should funnel through the gubment but there is room - and need - for both.

 

You make a good point, but if taxes were not so high, there would be more money to provide to charity. Also, many look at some charities and assume they are already giving to that cause through the government and their tax dollars.

[westvirginia]

Um no....banker lied....didn't show a financial calculation how long the money would last at a decent projection of an interest rate. Bad luck is me doing my job send business to the appropriate people and then losing all the business to something that won't work....only due to me doing my job.

 

 

No. If you'd done your job you would've closed the deal and had check in hand before they left your office. Then they wouldn't have had the whole wad - only what you'd intended for them to put into the CD's.

[TheShiznit]

No. If you'd done your job you would've closed the deal and had check in hand before they left your office. Then they wouldn't have had the whole wad - only what you'd intended for them to put into the CD's.

 

You don't get checks in hand on rollovers. The money had multiple sources....not going to argue facts you cannot possibly know....but this goes against my philosophy of how business in small towns work. Letter has been sent to the bank...local bank....who depends on referrals to the bank for CD's. They have no financial services arm...so I sometimes get referrals back. It was a luck issue...guy lied....client bought it....I am sure the bank will regret it.

 

I didn't spend over a year with them....I met with them over a year ago to do some pre-planning....do you plan Perch? You don't step in a day before and make decisions....you PLAN. Takes time...especially when someone won't quit working till the next year...so anyway...regardless...this is not a skill issue or a preparedness issue...since the banker lied...this was a luck issue...bad on my part.

[westvirginia]

You don't get checks in hand on rollovers. The money had multiple sources....not going to argue facts you cannot possibly know....but this goes against my philosophy of how business in small towns work. Letter has been sent to the bank...local bank....who depends on referrals to the bank for CD's. They have no financial services arm...so I sometimes get referrals back. It was a luck issue...guy lied....client bought it....I am sure the bank will regret it.

 

I didn't spend over a year with them....I met with them over a year ago to do some pre-planning....do you plan Perch? You don't step in a day before and make decisions....you PLAN. Takes time...especially when someone won't quit working till the next year...so anyway...regardless...this is not a skill issue or a preparedness issue...since the banker lied...this was a luck issue...bad on my part.

 

 

Well, gee, I'm just some country bumpkin, so I couldn't begin to understand. But tell me this: They could readily give up that money to the bank but not to you? smells

 

But I'm sure there's something the ever omniscient shiz knows that I couldn't ever comprehend. In spite of my degrees in accounting, finance (minor in econ) with a few hours MBA time under my belt.

 

I'll just sit over here scratchin' fartin' and picken mah teef.

 

Maw! Bring me a beer, will ya!

[SEC=UGA]

You don't get checks in hand on rollovers. The money had multiple sources....not going to argue facts you cannot possibly know....but this goes against my philosophy of how business in small towns work. Letter has been sent to the bank...local bank....who depends on referrals to the bank for CD's. They have no financial services arm...so I sometimes get referrals back. It was a luck issue...guy lied....client bought it....I am sure the bank will regret it.

 

I didn't spend over a year with them....I met with them over a year ago to do some pre-planning....do you plan Perch? You don't step in a day before and make decisions....you PLAN. Takes time...especially when someone won't quit working till the next year...so anyway...regardless...this is not a skill issue or a preparedness issue...since the banker lied...this was a luck issue...bad on my part.

 

My only concern is that these people are at retirement age and only have $250K Please tell me they have more.....

 

So, when you gave them this "plan" what was their response? It seems that they didn't like said plan or didn't understand said plan. I, myself would be pretty hesitant tying up my life savings in an annuity and not have access to the principal dollars, especially at a 6.5% IRR (incidentally, over what period of time was that IRR derived? Are the funds passable to the heirs if there is money left, I know some of these only pay for the annuitants life?) Sounds like they could have done better with some other investments, mutual funds, etc...

 

Then again, with so little to invest, maybe they couldn't handle the risk associated with other instruments.

 

Oh, yeah, and I forgot to be mean... "They have no financial services arm", and they still out sold you?

Edited July 24, 2008 by SEC=UGA