The Great Ethanol Scam

[Perchoutofwater]

Perch the increased food cost is self evident. But how do you figure that using corn for ethanol instead of food creates MORE runoff?

 

If it is used for food or for biofuel, it has the same amount of pesticides, so that dog wont hunt . . .

 

How many acres of corn were planted 10 years ago, how many are planted today?

[TimC]

I think the world is heading where 85 octane is the standard. I don't want to live in that world. You try to legislate putting 85 octane in the Vette and I will personally crush your little Jap ricer myself.

Edited May 19, 2009 by TimC

[Square]

The mercury in them, makes them an environmental hazard. Lighting manufactures really weren't all that thrilled with them, and were really advancing LED technology when the government decided to stick its nose into our lives again and mandate the extinction of the incandescent bulb. In doing so, they set back the research into LED's which are more efficient and don't have the environmental hazards of a CFL.

 

Here is a link that better describes what I'm talking about.

For the record, I think you are wrong on this issue. I work in the lighting industry and I'm wiling to go more in depth on this issue, but I don't really have the time right now. Basically, LEDs aren't ready for prime time with regard to commercial projects (accept for accent, wall washing, or decorative lighting applications). They will eventually get there but that doesn't mean that anybody wants to use incandescent in commercial projects (where the majority of electricity is used). We can talk about this some other time and I'll let you guys fight over ethanol in this thread.

[Avernus]

We are making ethanol and biodiesel at our plant, or at least researching the most efficient ways to do so, and we do not use any food related sources of biomass (only msw, pulp mill byproducts, forest trimmings, switchgrass, etc.).

 

biodiesel is a great alternative imo....but ethanol, not so much...

[bpwallace49]

How many acres of corn were planted 10 years ago, how many are planted today?

 

How many people were there in the world that EAT every day compared to 10 years ago?

 

It is intellectually dishonest to say that the acreage that corn uses now would be in a idyllic wild state if it wasnt for evil old ethanol.

[Perchoutofwater]

For the record, I think you are wrong on this issue. I work in the lighting industry and I'm wiling to go more in depth on this issue, but I don't really have the time right now. Basically, LEDs aren't ready for prime time with regard to commercial projects (accept for accent, wall washing, or decorative lighting applications). They will eventually get there but that doesn't mean that anybody wants to use incandescent in commercial projects (where the majority of electricity is used). We can talk about this some other time and I'll let you guys fight over ethanol in this thread.

 

I agree LED's are not ready for standard use on commercial projects. My contention is they would be had it not been for CFL's being forced down our throats. The money spent re-tooling factories to produce CFLs' in order to meet the governments mandate could have been used on R&D for LED's. CFL's were not widely used in commercial project until the government started talking about doing away with the incandescent. When they first started coming out everyone hated them. They were slow to fire, you couldn't dim them, and the light they put of was harsh. While some improvements have been made, they still suck. Also, I've rarely seen a CFL last anywhere near as long as claimed. It also seems you have more ballast problems with CFLs than with typical florescent lighting. You also have the problem of disposing of CFL's.

 

I'm a construction manager that specializes in schools and hospitals. I still remember the first project we used CFL's on and how the owner's rep for that hospital went off on the lighting consultant. I've yet to meet anyone that likes the light put off by them, how long it takes them to come completely on, the problems with dimming them (yes I know you can dim them, but that is expensive and still doesn't work well). I think you would be surprised at how many commercial buildings would have people would choose incandescent lighting over CFL's if incandescents were going to be readily available. I've used LED's in all the applications you have mentioned. I have not changed my house over to CFLs because I am hoping to be able to wait and change them over to LEDs.

[whoopazz]

biodiesel is a great alternative imo....but ethanol, not so much...

Back to point, DoD and DOE are pouring tons of money into alternative energy research to help with our energy security, especially on the defense side of things. We all know that biofuels are not the end all solution to our energy security, but surely it needs to be further explored. For example, all military bases have at least one landfill (most have several), and all of that biomass (msw, construction waste to name a couple) can be cost effectively converted to useful fuels (biodiesel and even jet fuel). We all know this and need to figure out how to do it efficiently (it can be done). We are pretty sure we can produce biofuels at a lower cost per barrel than conventional diesel, and with a lower carbon footprint.

 

None of us in the know think that ethanol production from food sources is a good idea. But, we can make ethanol from sawdust. It you think its not a valid fuel source, so what. Ethanol is used in many other vital functions. In the end, we know that waste that is otherwise land filled or left in the forest to rot can be converted to fuels or other useful resources. What's not to like about this?

[Square]

I agree LED's are not ready for standard use on commercial projects. My contention is they would be had it not been for CFL's being forced down our throats. The money spent re-tooling factories to produce CFLs' in order to meet the governments mandate could have been used on R&D for LED's. CFL's were not widely used in commercial project until the government started talking about doing away with the incandescent. When they first started coming out everyone hated them. They were slow to fire, you couldn't dim them, and the light they put of was harsh. While some improvements have been made, they still suck. Also, I've rarely seen a CFL last anywhere near as long as claimed. It also seems you have more ballast problems with CFLs than with typical florescent lighting. You also have the problem of disposing of CFL's.

 

I'm a construction manager that specializes in schools and hospitals. I still remember the first project we used CFL's on and how the owner's rep for that hospital went off on the lighting consultant. I've yet to meet anyone that likes the light put off by them, how long it takes them to come completely on, the problems with dimming them (yes I know you can dim them, but that is expensive and still doesn't work well). I think you would be surprised at how many commercial buildings would have people would choose incandescent lighting over CFL's if incandescents were going to be readily available. I've used LED's in all the applications you have mentioned. I have not changed my house over to CFLs because I am hoping to be able to wait and change them over to LEDs.

No offense man, but your complaints are mainly old school "when they first came out" type stuff. LEDs fight the same problems of life not lasting as long as stated (100K hours is a joke) mainy don't dim or don't dim below 20%, and they cause a lot of heat issues in cans. CFL can lights have been the standard for a long time in commercial. I've been a factory rep for two of the largest fluorescent manufacturers (Cooper and Lithonia) and nobody from either factory has ever even hinted to them losing an opportunity by going to CFL instead of being able to use incandescent and invest in LED. One of the largest LED manufacturer's is a company called Cree. They have been around for ever but most people haven't heard of them. LED companies have been focused on LEDs forever because they are a viable product for particular applications (cell phones, computer/data lights, MCCs). Now, that the technology is advancing to the point that we can actually get reasonable output for certain applications LEDs are being used in some places. The set back you are referencing never really happened. Companies gravitated towards the best, stable, efficient technology that they had. The government simply made restrictions on how much watts per square foot an application was allowed. LIke I said, I don't really have the time to go through the entire history and being a "construction manager" doesn't exactly state you know much about lighting. Do you work for a GC? Are you an electrical contractor? In the lighting world we have a word we call electricians, "installers". Most the people on a jobsite really aren't that familiar with how all the different systems work. People have a bad lamp / ballast / dimmer match up and then then they call you and say your chit doesn't work. If you've been on jobs you know how quick everyone is to crap on somebody else's stuff. When I get more time I'll find some articles talking about how little mercury is used in fluorescent lamps and how overblown some of the mercury fear mongering is in the media (tribes who eat nothing but fish have an intake 4 to 5 times what the average person gets of mercury... They are healthier and live longer than the average American).

[H8tank]

The government simply made restrictions on how much watts per square foot an application was allowed.

 

Me thinks you might be a wee bit dumber than your mom knows.

 

"Did you know that ordinary light bulbs will be illegal to sell soon?"

[bpwallace49]

No offense man, but your complaints are mainly old school "when they first came out" type stuff. LEDs fight the same problems of life not lasting as long as stated (100K hours is a joke) mainy don't dim or don't dim below 20%, and they cause a lot of heat issues in cans. CFL can lights have been the standard for a long time in commercial. I've been a factory rep for two of the largest fluorescent manufacturers (Cooper and Lithonia) and nobody from either factory has ever even hinted to them losing an opportunity by going to CFL instead of being able to use incandescent and invest in LED. One of the largest LED manufacturer's is a company called Cree. They have been around for ever but most people haven't heard of them. LED companies have been focused on LEDs forever because they are a viable product for particular applications (cell phones, computer/data lights, MCCs). Now, that the technology is advancing to the point that we can actually get reasonable output for certain applications LEDs are being used in some places. The set back you are referencing never really happened. Companies gravitated towards the best, stable, efficient technology that they had. The government simply made restrictions on how much watts per square foot an application was allowed. LIke I said, I don't really have the time to go through the entire history and being a "construction manager" doesn't exactly state you know much about lighting. Do you work for a GC? Are you an electrical contractor? In the lighting world we have a word we call electricians, "installers". Most the people on a jobsite really aren't that familiar with how all the different systems work. People have a bad lamp / ballast / dimmer match up and then then they call you and say your chit doesn't work. If you've been on jobs you know how quick everyone is to crap on somebody else's stuff. When I get more time I'll find some articles talking about how little mercury is used in fluorescent lamps and how overblown some of the mercury fear mongering is in the media (tribes who eat nothing but fish have an intake 4 to 5 times what the average person gets of mercury... They are healthier and live longer than the average American).

 

You better check yoself befo you riggidy wreck yoself Perch . . . . .

 

wow.

[Perchoutofwater]

No offense man, but your complaints are mainly old school "when they first came out" type stuff. LEDs fight the same problems of life not lasting as long as stated (100K hours is a joke) mainy don't dim or don't dim below 20%, and they cause a lot of heat issues in cans. CFL can lights have been the standard for a long time in commercial. I've been a factory rep for two of the largest fluorescent manufacturers (Cooper and Lithonia) and nobody from either factory has ever even hinted to them losing an opportunity by going to CFL instead of being able to use incandescent and invest in LED. One of the largest LED manufacturer's is a company called Cree. They have been around for ever but most people haven't heard of them. LED companies have been focused on LEDs forever because they are a viable product for particular applications (cell phones, computer/data lights, MCCs). Now, that the technology is advancing to the point that we can actually get reasonable output for certain applications LEDs are being used in some places. The set back you are referencing never really happened. Companies gravitated towards the best, stable, efficient technology that they had. The government simply made restrictions on how much watts per square foot an application was allowed. LIke I said, I don't really have the time to go through the entire history and being a "construction manager" doesn't exactly state you know much about lighting. Do you work for a GC? Are you an electrical contractor? In the lighting world we have a word we call electricians, "installers". Most the people on a jobsite really aren't that familiar with how all the different systems work. People have a bad lamp / ballast / dimmer match up and then then they call you and say your chit doesn't work. If you've been on jobs you know how quick everyone is to crap on somebody else's stuff. When I get more time I'll find some articles talking about how little mercury is used in fluorescent lamps and how overblown some of the mercury fear mongering is in the media (tribes who eat nothing but fish have an intake 4 to 5 times what the average person gets of mercury... They are healthier and live longer than the average American).

 

I'm a GC. I'm just regurgitating what was discussed over lunch with one of the biggest electrical firms in the DFW area, the guy from the local supply house, and the Lightolier sales rep. We were actually discussing problems we were having with some LED lights that were shooting light up on a canopy. It was a controls issue. The biggest hang up I've heard about on the LED's is the heat with the cans.