Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[Duchess Jack]

What the problem is with removing this?

 

I know that folk want to wait for the soldiers opinion - but they are men's men (not meant to sound ghey in this sense) and are likely to be homophobic. Are we going to keep this crap in place because some soldiers might be homophobic (not saying they are, but if their vote comes back saying that they don't like the idea - I can find no other explination).

 

Anyway... what is the problem with Gheys in the military?

[SEC=UGA]

I used to have a hugh problem w. gays in the military, but really never had a good reason as to why I felt that way... So, I am no longer against it. Only reason I can come up with is due to the close quarters in which these guys live, there could be a concern that it make the straight people in the military uncomfortable. My other thought on this is that the majority of the gays in the military would be women rather than men, for obvious reasons, thus you could have issues where the butch girls may take advantage of the women.

[Square]

Meh, my guess is that most soldiers could give an F less as long as the dude is solid at doing his job. This is actual war time for those guys so I'm sure they care more about the quality of soldier than anything else. Maybe during peace time it seemed like this was a big deal, but I'm sure if you are in a foxhole or a truck dodging IEDs, who gives a flip?

Edited May 28, 2010 by Square

[detlef]

It's come to a rather serious and specific problem here in NC. A woman enrolled in ROTC at UNC decided to come out and was kicked out of the program for doing so. The military now wants to stick her with the entire bill for what they paid for during school (~$80K). She insists that she really wants to serve in the military but that she also owed it to her girlfriend not to continue living a lie.

 

It's a pretty damned sticky situation and one that I hope would bring this issue to a head. Honestly, I really hope that Ellen doesn't reach back into her wallet and pay the woman's school bill because that wouldn't bring us any closer to solving this.

 

On one hand, there's the argument that she didn't quit, the military doesn't want her because she's gay and that's their problem. Which means the school bill should be their problem as well. On the other hand, as long as this policy remains, if they stuck the military with the bill, you could get away without serving if you just said you were gay. The only fair way to settle this is to make her serve her duty in the military like everyone else. Something that she seems entirely prepared to do and, frankly, pissed that she's being denied the chance to do.

 

The close proximity bit seems like something people need to get over. It's a work place and unwanted advances should be dealt with the same as anywhere else. Granted, in most workplaces, you're in less intimate situations, but it still takes the gay person stepping over the line before it becomes an issue. Having this rule in place is assuming they will before anyone does. And the only way we'll look back and really wish that we didn't give them the benefit of the doubt is if something horrible happens. And it's not like making them stay in the closet is going to stop that anyway.

 

Considering how vastly outnumbered they'd be and considering how conservative the prevailing situation is, a gay would have to be a complete and total moron to come on to a straight member of the military. Do they really think that, if they're allowed to be openly gay, dudes are going to start walking over to other guys in the shower and talking them up? And yes, this goes for women as well. Sure, gay women, especially those inclined to join the military may be more butch. But it's not like the straight women are frail and helpless. Again, nobody in their right mind is going to cross the line. And if crossing the line is simply asking someone out, then freaking get over it. Tell them they've got the wrong guy and move on.

 

If they're truly not overturning this because dudes are afraid to take a shower in a group setting that includes a gay guy, then that is totally laughable. Especially because they likely already are anyway, it's just that dude is not allowed to say it. In other words, it appears that we have an official policy in our Military that seems like it was cooked up by a couple 16 year olds.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Anyway... what is the problem with Gheys in the military?

they will try to bugger the non gheys? Yah no that is the goal of every ghey person. bugger the non gheys.

[Kid Cid]

I agree totally with detlef. It is laughable that people are thinking that gheys are suddenly going to start copulating with straight members of the military as soon as they possibly can or even more laughable that some people think that suddenly everyone in the military is going to catch the ghey.

[geeteebee]

they will try to bugger the non gheys? Yah no that is the goal of every ghey person. bugger the non gheys.

 

Actually, you are wrong. First they go ghey, then they want to bugger your kids. Then they want to bugger your dogs and cats.

[Savage Beatings]

Becuase it's gross. I mean unless you're talking about two hot chicks, then it's not so gross.

[SEC=UGA]

I agree totally with detlef. It is laughable that people are thinking that gheys are suddenly going to start copulating with straight members of the military as soon as they possibly can or even more laughable that some people think that suddenly everyone in the military is going to catch the ghey.

 

I think the problem that they might think will happen is gheys buggering one another as they will be in the same rooms with one another. Believe me, no one wants to walk in on two guys buggering one another.

[Kid Cid]

I think the problem that they might think will happen is gheys buggering one another as they will be in the same rooms with one another. Believe me, no one wants to walk in on two guys buggering one another.

Very true, but since they are already buggering each other, what would change other than they can now say, "Hey, I buggered Johhny last night and it was fantastic! Johnny, I think I left my class ring up there, let me know when you get it back."

[SEC=UGA]

Very true, but since they are already buggering each other, what would change other than they can now say, "Hey, I buggered Johhny last night and it was fantastic! Johnny, I think I left my class ring up there, let me know when you get it back."

 

Can people really wear their class ring on their cock?

[tazinib1]

Meh, my guess is that most soldiers could give an F less as long as the dude is solid at doing his job. This is actual war time for those guys so I'm sure they care more about the quality of soldier than anything else. Maybe during peace time it seemed like this was a big deal, but I'm sure if you are in a foxhole or a truck dodging IEDs, who gives a flip?

 

True. Most military guys could give a rats ass if they stay quiet and do there job. But that opinion changes significantly when you are out to sea for 6 months. Being confined to a ship for that long and being housed with men/women that are ghey is a problem. Like it or not. Being that I was in the Navy for 8 years, I can tell you it is. Especially if there are relationships on the ship between gheys. Letting them come out and serve openly will put those men/women at risk for serious consequences. Whether we agree or not, a good portion of the military come from rural towns/cities where the opinion of gheys just isn't where it needs to be at this day and age. I predict an alarming increase of ghey bashing if this new policy is put into effect.

[Avernus]

Becuase it's gross. I mean unless you're talking about two hot chicks, then it's not so gross.

 

 

ding, ding, ding....

 

what did he win?...

 

A TRIP TO SAN FRANSISCO!!!!!!!!

[millerx]

they will try to bugger the non gheys? Yah no that is the goal of every ghey person. bugger the non gheys.

Actually, in the ghey community it is considered a huge accomplishment and badge of respect to have been able to get a guy to "turn" and bugger a non-ghey. So...

 

True. Most military guys could give a rats ass if they stay quiet and do there job. But that opinion changes significantly when you are out to sea for 6 months. Being confined to a ship for that long and being housed with men/women that are ghey is a problem. Like it or not. Being that I was in the Navy for 8 years, I can tell you it is. Especially if there are relationships on the ship between gheys. Letting them come out and serve openly will put those men/women at risk for serious consequences. Whether we agree or not, a good portion of the military come from rural towns/cities where the opinion of gheys just isn't where it needs to be at this day and age. I predict an alarming increase of ghey bashing if this new policy is put into effect.

This.

 

 

... and it's not just

that this would happen.

[detlef]

Actually, in the ghey community it is considered a huge accomplishment and badge of respect to have been able to get a guy to "turn" and bugger a non-ghey. So...

Well, there is certainly some merit to the first part but I don't think it's so rampant. There used to be a guy who lived down the street from us and it seemed to be his opinion that every single freaking guy alive would be gay if they only they knew. Eventually we just stopped inviting the guy over because it was so damned annoying. That said, this guy was certainly not military material. Dude was not exactly very masculine. And also seemingly atypical. Others might joke, "don't knock it til you try it" or something like that, but that always seemed to be in jest with pretty much every gay person I've ever known.

 

I would imagine that most find satisfaction in getting a guy to "turn" is because they (and many others) don't think you "turn" gay. You're either gay or not and, if so, you either accept that in yourself or don't. Thus, it would seem the satisfaction is in getting someone who is gay to finally admit it. I mean, if you're not already gay or bi-sexual, why would you be interested in having sex with someone of your same sex in the first place?

 

The safety of gays in the military is certainly something worth considering. However, what does it say about your motives when those you are supposedly protecting don't want your protection? Hell, if you opened it up, it's not like gays would be required to out themselves. Those who wanted to keep it on the DL could still do so. Those who would prefer to be out are apparently prepared to deal with the consequences and should be allowed to do so.

[BeeR]

Meh, my guess is that most soldiers could give an F less as long as the dude is solid at doing his job. This is actual war time for those guys so I'm sure they care more about the quality of soldier than anything else. Maybe during peace time it seemed like this was a big deal, but I'm sure if you are in a foxhole or a truck dodging IEDs, who gives a flip?

I think "most" is pushing it.

 

And even now most military members are NOT in combat zones, let alone foxholes etc FYI. Oh and where are these people showering/etc?

[Duchess Jack]

Especially if there are relationships on the ship between gheys.

As somebody else mentioned - they're likely doing it now as well. Why not punish it in the same manner that you would a male serviceman buggering a female serviceman.

 

Letting them come out and serve openly will put those men/women at risk for serious consequences.

To suggest that this is in place to protect gheys is laughable. They don't seem to think so - and if they were worried - they could always 'not tell' even if the rule telling them to 'not tell' is removed.

 

Whether we agree or not, a good portion of the military come from rural towns/cities where the opinion of gheys just isn't where it needs to be at this day and age.

And we should coddle these people? We should worry about their bigotry? If they cannot handle themselves in the right way with a fellow soldier - how are they going to handle themselves when stationed in Iraq and Afganistan when surrounded by people they have reason to not like?

 

How many female service women were raped by fellow officers last year? How many had to deal with sexism? Should we ban all women from the military?

[wirehairman]

I'm the last one anyone would ever call homophobic (since my sister and her wife would kick my ass) but playing devil's advocate here . . .

 

I don't believe the military has any co-ed barracks and/or showering facilities? Why? If the opposite sex is purposefully separated to avoid problems, wouldn't the same logic apply to people with same sex preferences?

 

I understand a lot of the prejudice is just that, prejudice, but can also understand why some individuals would have legitimate concerns about living in very close quarters with homosexuals. I also don't think there is an easy, black and white answer as I'm quite sure some of our very best soldiers are gay, openly or otherwise, and deserve the opportunity to serve.

[SEC=UGA]

How many female service women were raped by fellow officers last year? How many had to deal with sexism? Should we ban all women from the military?

 

I have consistantly been against having females in the military in combat areas where they are mixed in with male service members, so that I would be in agreement with.

 

Keep them in hospitals and supply stations if you like, but keep them out of combat areas where mainly men are housed. I think the number of rapes and abuse cases are enough to warrant doing so.

[Rebellab]

Sitting here with a guy with that just got out of the Army after six years and in his basic training class two guys came out and said they were gay. Whether or not they actually were is up for discussion. Was it an easy out for someone that couldn't hack it.

 

So there is another angle to look at.

[Azazello1313]

I'm more inclined to defer to the military experts on this. if they think it will be problematic to allow openly ghey people in the military, I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, rather than jump immediately to the conclusion that they are homophobic bigots.

 

for me at least, the argument for allowing gay marriage is a lot stronger than the argument for requiring the military to accept openly ghey soldiers.

[cliaz]

It has to do with the same reason why, traditionally, females were not allowed in to combat units. Basically, when faced with the possibility of death, humans will ram. Ramming in a combat situation violates so many codes of the Uniform Code of Military Justice/federal law but the at the very core of the Don't Ask/Don't Tell (or as we called it, The Clinton Commando Proxy) - federal law has a very strict outline on what behavior a military person should exhibit. Homosexual/Bisexual/Lesbian and/or normal male|female sex creates risks to the very high standards of morale, discipline, and military unit cohesion that are essential for military capability responses.

[evil_gop_liars]

Top Social Conservative: Hitler Used Gay Soldiers Because They Had 'No Limits'

 

 

So Hitler himself was an active homosexual. And some people wonder, didn't the Germans, didn't the Nazis, persecute homosexuals? And it is true they did; they persecuted effeminate homosexuals. But Hitler recruited around him homosexuals to make up his Stormtroopers, they were his enforcers, they were his thugs.

[Azazello1313]

How many female service women were raped by fellow officers last year? How many had to deal with sexism? Should we ban all women from the military?

 

well, I think this illustrates where the military is coming from. they'd probably like to minimize this kind of thing as much as possible. sex and military service seem to be, for whatever reason, a rather explosive combination, as there have been a LOT of these kinds of scandals. allowing gays would potentially make that problem worse, not better.

 

and like someone said in one of the earlier threads...maybe it's not the manly men feeling violated we need to worry about so much as the girly girls.

[Azazello1313]

Top Social Conservative: Hitler Used Gay Soldiers Because They Had 'No Limits'

 

 

 

why does it not surprise me in the least that this "top social conservative" is someone no one has ever heard of.

 

but they guy has a point. those stormtroopers are totally ghey.