Any fair way to have seperate drafts ?

[Henry Muto]

I am starting a new dynasty league and was going to hold 1 draft for all players vets and rookies but 1 guy in my league is adament that we must have 2 seperate drafts and they can not be combined. I see no fair way of doing this. Even if you reverse the order of the original draft it gives the team with the 12/13 the biggest advantage.

 

12/13 plus #1 rookie seems to be way better than the 1/24 plus #12 rookie based on the dynasty start up drafts I have been looking at.

 

The #1 rookie is going in the 2nd round

The #2 - #4 rookies are going between rounds 2-4

Where as the #12 rookie is going around pick 150 overeall

 

So you get 1/24/150 or 12/13/19 ?

 

Sure having that #1 is great but not if your stuck with rookie pick #12

 

Can anyone come up with a fair way to have seperate drafts ?

[Chavez]

Ease into the dynasty portion - keep an increasing # of players from year to year - from 6 to 12 to 18 (or whatever the roster size is).

 

I also think the 2 drafts are the best way to do it.

[tazinib1]

In a start up dynasty, you should ALWAYS have seperate vet/rook drafts. The fairest way to determine draft order for the rook is going reverse of the vet. Or you can dice roll for each. You choose as the commish.

[Henry Muto]

Ease into the dynasty portion - keep an increasing # of players from year to year - from 6 to 12 to 18 (or whatever the roster size is).

 

I also think the 2 drafts are the best way to do it.

 

This league will be starting from scratch with salary's ect so all players as long as your under the cap will be kept.

 

This is a dynasty league not a keeper league.

 

You say 2 drafts is the best way to do it but you didn't say how to make it fair.

[Henry Muto]

In a start up dynasty, you should ALWAYS have seperate vet/rook drafts. The fairest way to determine draft order for the rook is going reverse of the vet. Or you can dice roll for each. You choose as the commish.

 

How is that fair though ?

 

I see Mathews go #11 overall in a start up draft.

 

So the guy at 12/13 also gets pick 11 ?

 

I seen the #12 rookie go off the board at pick 150.

 

So the guy at 1/24 gets 150 ?

 

11/12/13 is 10x better than 1/24/150

 

yes the 1/24 is better than the 12/13 but not by that amount where he should get the #1 rookie pick.

 

Also consider this year's rookie draft and regular draft.

 

the 1-4 picks in both seem to be very high ranking over picks 5+

 

So if you draw 5-8 in the regular draft you also get 5-8 in the rookie draft.

 

Your really drawing the short stick there missing the top 4 RB's in the regular and the top 4 clear cut rookies who are ranked way above the #5 rookie.

 

See the problem with doing it that way ?

[Henry Muto]

http://footballguys.com/pickvalue.php

 

According to this

 

1/24/150 = 2894 pts

 

12/13/11 = 3933 pts

 

Team with 12/13/11 has 36% better picks

 

Even if you drop Mathews down to pick 24 value

 

1/24/150

vs

12/13/24

 

So bascially 1/150 vs 12/13

If your picking your choice which do you want ?

 

I take 12/13 over 1/150 how about you ?

 

12/13 is 33% better than 1/150 according to the chart.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Henry Muto

[tazinib1]

Is getting the #1 overall player on the board, then turning around and getting the #1 overall rookie in the same league fair? Not in my eyes. That's why you develop the ability to trade wisely. You will see the crafty veteran dynasty players moving up in the draft in trading frenzies after the vet.

[Henry Muto]

Is getting the #1 overall player on the board, then turning around and getting the #1 overall rookie in the same league fair? Not in my eyes. That's why you develop the ability to trade wisely. You will see the crafty veteran dynasty players moving up in the draft in trading frenzies after the vet.

I don't get where this has anything to do with how to do seperate drafts.

[tazinib1]

I don't get where this has anything to do with how to do seperate drafts.

 

 

Do this next year. If you are implementing a dynasty for this year, combine the drafts. Next year the rookie draft will be as usual: based on finish. yes?

[Henry Muto]

Do this next year. If you are implementing a dynasty for this year, combine the drafts. Next year the rookie draft will be as usual: based on finish. yes?

Yes of course next year will be based on finish but he wants separate drafts in this 1st year the start up year.

 

I like the idea of separate drafts but need to try and make it fair somehow.

 

I just ran down what each pick is equal to using that pick chart and a 12 man rookie only chart points system

 

The values come out as follows

 

#1 Rookie (1116) = 18th Vet (1105)

#2 Rookie (860) = 29th Vet (853)

#3 Rookie (732) = 37th Vet (732)

#4 Rookie (604) = 48th Vet (606)

#5 Rookie (476) = 62nd Vet (473)

#6 Rookie (412) = 69th Vet (410)

#7 Rookie (348) = 76th Vet (350)

#8 Rookie (316) = 80th Vet (316)

#9 Rookie (284) = 84th Vet (284)

#10Rookie (252) = 88th Vet (253)

#11Rookie (236) = 90th Vet (239)

#12Rookie (220) = 93rd Vet (217)

 

#13 Rookie - #24 rookie values start at 204 go down to 106

 

So any combo of 1/24 Vet + 12/13 rookie vs 12/13 Vet + 1/24 Rookie

or 6/19 Vet + 7/18 Rookie

 

You add up the values and see where they land

 

The higher the rookie pick the more value you have even if your taking a lower pick in the regular draft.

 

2 forces at work here. How big of an advantage is the 1/24 over 12/13 or over even say 8/17

How big of advantage is 4/21 over the same 12/13, 8/17

 

Now factor rookies in reverse order how does this swing things ?

 

That #1 - #4 rookies are pretty important in the chart and especially this year it seems a consensus on 1-4 rookies has been laid down.

 

1-4 Vets a consensus again has been laid down in overall whelming

 

Too bad there wasn't 1-6 Vets and 1-6 Rookies that people really wanted this year then it would be perfectly fair to do it this way.

 

But from everything I have seen in drafts and read it really looks like this in PPR leagues

 

1-4 Vets big advantage over 5-12

1-4 rookies big advantage over 5-12

 

So if we reverse it teams 1,2,3,4,9,10,11 and 12 should all be fairly happy they get a top 4 vet or a top 4 rookie

 

Teams 5-8 maybe not so happy getting middle players on each end.

 

Thoughts on this ?

[delusions of grandeur]

I can see your concern in this year in particular, with things dropping off pretty hard after the top 3, so this year it might make more sense to just comibne the two drafts for your startup...

 

But let me ask you this.... Is it really unfair to the people picking one of those top 5 RBs in this draft, and particularly if you have your choice between CJ and AP.... Or put another way, would you trade your 12th, 13th and Matthews for one of those 2 and a #24 pick like a pretty solid WR.... I can see both sides, but honestly, I'm not even sure it would matter who I was taking at #12 in the rookie draft, I think I still might take the #1 position...

 

Here's a pretty fair solution though... Using your predetermined draft order, let each person choose which spot they want to draft from for the vet draft (still with reverse order of that for rookie draft though).

 

If you don't prefer that solution, then it sounds like you're going to favor combining them regardless.... But do you really have to have a complete majority for something like the startup draft? This is not the case of changing something where you might need a complete majority to overturn. It's a situation where you're going to have to settle on one of the options, and so to me that other guy is clearly outvoted if everyone else wants to do it the other way.

Edited July 5, 2010 by delusions of granduer

[Jackass]

i would combine the drafts. no question about it.

[Henry Muto]

I was thinking of that idea as well reversing the order and letting the teams pick there spots.

 

So when the MFL site sents out draft order 1-12 it really will be sending out choices.

 

#1 decides if they want to stick there or move around to get a higher rookie pick.

 

Also someone could trade their #30 vet pick to land the #2 rookie pick if both sides agreed.

 

I like that idea if doing them seperate.........but.........

 

The guy I am in the league with demands we do 2 complete seperate draws of random luck.

 

A guy could land a top 3 pick in both drafts and then have a huge advantage on the rest of the league.

 

This is why I just prefer 1 draft then everyone has fair shot at the rookies.

[tazinib1]

I was thinking of that idea as well reversing the order and letting the teams pick there spots.

 

So when the MFL site sents out draft order 1-12 it really will be sending out choices.

 

#1 decides if they want to stick there or move around to get a higher rookie pick.

 

Also someone could trade their #30 vet pick to land the #2 rookie pick if both sides agreed.

 

I like that idea if doing them seperate.........but.........

 

The guy I am in the league with demands we do 2 complete seperate draws of random luck.

 

A guy could land a top 3 pick in both drafts and then have a huge advantage on the rest of the league.

 

This is why I just prefer 1 draft then everyone has fair shot at the rookies.

 

You need to start playing with some more experienced players bro. Nobody in there right mind would #30 vet pick for the #2 rook. But if they did, and the cast you have assembled is experienced enough then nobody should question it. Sounds like you, as the commish, are trying to build a system that best suites YOUR needs...not the leagues.

[Big Country]

I've said it many times that I have never seen a convincing argument made to show why separate or combined is better in the initial startup year of a dynasty league.

 

I have also made it clear that my personal preference is for a combined initial year draft.

 

IMO, this eliminates any concern over what is a 'fair" distribution of picks of separate drafts, it forces owners to determine how they wish to build their teams, either by jumping on unproven rookies and 1 year players early, or building a solid more veteran laden team in the initial year. IMO, it lets owners truly be ownes of their teams. If I have the 11th overall pick, I can choose to go with a rookie like Matthews and hope to hit paydirt, or I can go with a more proven commodity like a DeAngelo Williams in that pick range. I am a big proponent of letting owners determine how best to build their team.

 

 

Now, you also mention having salaries. How are these being determined? Is it where a player is drafted? Some other arbitrary method? Pre-determined by some arbitrary set of rankings?

 

In most setups, I would state that having salaries is an even stronger argument for a combined initial draft, as presumably each team has a set salary cap for the entire roster, not a separate salary cap for rookies and veterans.

[delusions of grandeur]

In most setups, I would state that having salaries is an even stronger argument for a combined initial draft, as presumably each team has a set salary cap for the entire roster, not a separate salary cap for rookies and veterans.

 

Not to hijack your thread here Henry, but BC's statement has me curious as well.

 

We're converting our local to dynasty, modelled after a format in which you have a contract cap on years to assign to your roster, but also a DTS squad (where you can place players within their first three years in the NFL and are not required to assign contracts until you place them on your main roster). In our case, we will probably allow 4-6 spots for this.

 

For this reason I have been leaning towards a seperate rookie draft (final 4-5 rounds of 20), and we would also leave any free agents in to allow for more flexibility in when you want to address all of your roster spots... So aside from my own question about this being complicated and potentially confusing for drafters, is this a format where you would actually recommend doing the seperate rookie draft to fill out the developmental spots?

 

 

Or do you think we should we combine them and/or just forego the taxi squad in the initial year to keep things simple? Any other Huddlers or LLDers feel free to chime in as well.

[Big Country]

Not to hijack your thread here Henry, but BC's statement has me curious as well.

 

We're converting our local to dynasty, modelled after a format in which you have a contract cap on years to assign to your roster, but also a DTS squad (where you can place players within their first three years in the NFL and are not required to assign contracts until you place them on your main roster). In our case, we will probably allow 4-6 spots for this.

 

For this reason I have been leaning towards a seperate rookie draft (final 4-5 rounds of 20), and we would also leave any free agents in to allow for more flexibility in when you want to address all of your roster spots... So aside from my own question about this being complicated and potentially confusing for drafters, is this a format where you would actually recommend doing the seperate rookie draft to fill out the developmental spots?

 

 

Or do you think we should we combine them and/or just forego the taxi squad in the initial year to keep things simple? Any other Huddlers or LLDers feel free to chime in as well.

 

First a big no to designating certain rounds to start allowing rookies. Now, with a DTS, there is a slightly better aergument for allowing a separate draft for rookies, but, not all owners will want to put all of their rookies on the DTS, and, with allowing any player in their first 3 years on to the DTS, players in the non-rookie draft would be eligible for the DTS as well, thus, I revert back to my preferred thoughts of initial year player distribution which is to let your owners determine how to best fill out their rosters in the initial year of the league. If they want to take Matthews in the first round and DTS him, they should be allowed to if they so wish, realizing that this likely strengthens them in the future at the cost of the immediate term.

 

 

ETA: Your setup in terms of contract year cap is very similar to what is done in AFL. Unfortunately, I was not in the league in its initial year, just took over an orphaned team in need of some tending.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Big Country

[Henry Muto]

Not to hijack your thread here Henry, but BC's statement has me curious as well.

 

We're converting our local to dynasty, modelled after a format in which you have a contract cap on years to assign to your roster, but also a DTS squad (where you can place players within their first three years in the NFL and are not required to assign contracts until you place them on your main roster). In our case, we will probably allow 4-6 spots for this.

 

For this reason I have been leaning towards a seperate rookie draft (final 4-5 rounds of 20), and we would also leave any free agents in to allow for more flexibility in when you want to address all of your roster spots... So aside from my own question about this being complicated and potentially confusing for drafters, is this a format where you would actually recommend doing the seperate rookie draft to fill out the developmental spots?

 

 

Or do you think we should we combine them and/or just forego the taxi squad in the initial year to keep things simple? Any other Huddlers or LLDers feel free to chime in as well.

 

I am having a taxi squad and it is going to be 20 deep. Of course the 1st year 20 will leave open spots but in my leagues (Check out my sign the CFL league has been in business since 1997 we did 2 seperate drafts that year)

 

Anyway what we do is 1st round rookies go on your roster with a salary and 2nd-7th round rookies go to the taxi each year you can hold them there up to 3 full years.

 

Here is what I was planning on doing while holding a 1 draft.

 

Anyone can take rookies at any time. The 1st 12 rookies picked would be assigned their rookie salary slot as normal in a seperate rookie only draft.

All rookies after 13th+ on would go to a teams taxi squad.

If a total of say 24 rookies were taken during the 1 draft then we would hold a second draft of 5 rounds to complete the 7 round rookie draft.

If a total of say 36 rookies were taken then you do a 4 round rookie only draft to complete things.

 

So I have covered all the basis for a single draft while keeping in mind rookie principles.

 

Trust me you will want more than 4-6 spots, in 1997 we had no taxi, in 1998 I went to 5 man taxi but a few years went by and people had to keep cutting their young players in year 2 and then they pull a Sindey Rice or Austin Miles on you, you end up wanting to kill yourself. So it went to 10 then a few years later we upped it to 15. For my new league I am going 20 because sometimes you trade for pick end up with 10 picks in 1 year and can't keep them all at 15 slots for 3 years.

[Henry Muto]

You need to start playing with some more experienced players bro. Nobody in there right mind would #30 vet pick for the #2 rook. But if they did, and the cast you have assembled is experienced enough then nobody should question it. Sounds like you, as the commish, are trying to build a system that best suites YOUR needs...not the leagues.

 

What are you talking about..go look at some start up drafts.

 

The #30 overall pick (this is a mid 3rd round pick in a start up league of 12 teams) is about the same value as the #2 overall rookie pick.

 

How can I come up with this conclusion you ask ? Let me tell you...go look at about 20 dynasty start up drafts and see where Mathews, Best and Bryant are being taken.

 

The avg for Mathews is around pick #19, Bryant and Best are going between #25 - #35...........

 

Please explain what the heck your talking about dude on how no one in their right mind would trade the 30th pick overall for the #2 rookie pick if there were seperate drafts.......explain please. I really need to understand this.

 

The 30th Vet = a guy like Sidney Rice, DeAngelo Williams, ect your telling me the #2 rookie is way better or way worse.

 

And what are you talking about trying to make a league to suite me ? I am trying to make things fair.

 

I did the seperate drafts in 1997 and it sure didn't fell right looking back on it.

[tazinib1]

Because trading the 30th pick (lets say D-Will in your case) for the #1 rook pick is dumb. I'm sure most people here would agree that you don't trade away a proven, young vet for an unproven rookie. There will be some guys in your league that will build a young roster from the get go and say bolgerdash to the vets during there pick. Hey its there team...let them take themselves out of the $ right out of the gate for all I care. I just don't wanna be in a league like that. That's all I'm saying.

[Big Country]

I am having a taxi squad and it is going to be 20 deep. Of course the 1st year 20 will leave open spots but in my leagues (Check out my sign the CFL league has been in business since 1997 we did 2 seperate drafts that year)

 

Anyway what we do is 1st round rookies go on your roster with a salary and 2nd-7th round rookies go to the taxi each year you can hold them there up to 3 full years.

 

Here is what I was planning on doing while holding a 1 draft.

 

Anyone can take rookies at any time. The 1st 12 rookies picked would be assigned their rookie salary slot as normal in a seperate rookie only draft.

All rookies after 13th+ on would go to a teams taxi squad.

If a total of say 24 rookies were taken during the 1 draft then we would hold a second draft of 5 rounds to complete the 7 round rookie draft.

If a total of say 36 rookies were taken then you do a 4 round rookie only draft to complete things.

 

So I have covered all the basis for a single draft while keeping in mind rookie principles.

 

Trust me you will want more than 4-6 spots, in 1997 we had no taxi, in 1998 I went to 5 man taxi but a few years went by and people had to keep cutting their young players in year 2 and then they pull a Sindey Rice or Austin Miles on you, you end up wanting to kill yourself. So it went to 10 then a few years later we upped it to 15. For my new league I am going 20 because sometimes you trade for pick end up with 10 picks in 1 year and can't keep them all at 15 slots for 3 years.

 

 

Why not let owners decide who they want to go on their taxi squad and who they want to go on their main roster? Why make this arbitrary decision for them.

 

 

Seriously, not just at you HM but at a lot of the recent threads, what is so hard about letting owners draft/manage/run their teams as they see best fits them?

[Jackass]

Why not let owners decide who they want to go on their taxi squad and who they want to go on their main roster? Why make this arbitrary decision for them.

 

 

Seriously, not just at you HM but at a lot of the recent threads, what is so hard about letting owners draft/manage/run their teams as they see best fits them?

 

 

+1

Edited July 6, 2010 by Jackass

[Henry Muto]

Because trading the 30th pick (lets say D-Will in your case) for the #1 rook pick is dumb. I'm sure most people here would agree that you don't trade away a proven, young vet for an unproven rookie. There will be some guys in your league that will build a young roster from the get go and say bolgerdash to the vets during there pick. Hey its there team...let them take themselves out of the $ right out of the gate for all I care. I just don't wanna be in a league like that. That's all I'm saying.

 

Then why is Ryan Mathews being taken in the top 20 picks over players like D-Williams ?

 

1.11 SKY T 2 HOTTY Mathews, Ryan SDC RB

2.07 Team Legacy Best, Jahvid DET RB

3.09 Licensed to Chill Bryant, Dez DAL WR

3.12 Cavalier King Charles Williams, DeAngelo CAR RB

 

$1250 FFPC Dynasty start up draft.

 

Explain

[Henry Muto]

Why not let owners decide who they want to go on their taxi squad and who they want to go on their main roster? Why make this arbitrary decision for them.

 

 

Seriously, not just at you HM but at a lot of the recent threads, what is so hard about letting owners draft/manage/run their teams as they see best fits them?

 

Because the rules in my league are 1st round picks must go on your roster and 2nd-7th you get your option, Roster or taxi.

 

The 1st rounders need to go on the roster so you take on salary.

 

Kinda like the NBA draft. The 1st rounders get guarenteed contracts and 2nd rounders don't.

 

It's the same deal.

[Henry Muto]

Ok if I do 2 seperate drafts (like I already did in 1997) and someone draws a top 4 pick in both drafts while another team draws a bottom 4 pick in both drafts.

 

I just say congrats you hit the lottery to the 1st guy and sorry about your luck to the 2nd guy ?

 

Is that the type of league you want to be in ?

 

Just asking. If it is that is fine. Your willing to just let fate deal out the hand of greatness to some and death to others ?

 

I did it this way in 1997 and I drew the last rookie pick slot. Lucky for me 1997 might have been the worst rookie draft of all time.