I could have figured this out for a whole lot less

[driveby]

I get that. Do you get the outrage over Halliburton's $100 laundry loads and non-existent oil shipments?

Different context, but I can see how the Bush-haters could get worked up over that.

 

Although I'm guessing that stuff has happened since the Revolutionary War. How many trillion dollar fake stimulus bills have been passed since 1776?

[Ursa Majoris]

Different context, but I can see how the Bush-haters could get worked up over that.

So you don't then. By inference, you are cool with it, since you are not a "Bush-hater". Yet they are both wastes of money, why is one different to the other apart from the president's name? The Halliburton one is orders of magnitude greater than this research thing, so it would seem logical to me that you would be more enraged over that.

[Kid Cid]

Different context, but I can see how the Bush-haters American tax payers could get worked up over that.

 

Although I'm guessing that stuff has happened since the Revolutionary War. How many trillion dollar fake stimulus bills have been passed since 1776?

Fixed.

[westvirginia]

So you don't then. By inference, you are cool with it, since you are not a "Bush-hater". Yet they are both wastes of money, why is one different to the other apart from the president's name? The Halliburton one is orders of magnitude greater than this research thing, so it would seem logical to me that you would be more enraged over that.

 

You're exactly right, and you prove (by your lack of outrage here) that guys like you and grungie are just the other side of the coin to driveby. You're the same animal, just a different color.

 

WHY DO WE TAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY EARN IT TO PAY FOR CRAP LIKE THIS? $100 LAUNDRY LOADS INCLUDED. And when the politicians or anyone else says that any of this is no big deal they really should be beaten. It's not their money, gawd-damn-it!

[Kid Cid]

You're exactly right, and you prove (by your lack of outrage here) that guys like you and grungie are just the other side of the coin to driveby. You're the same animal, just a different color.

 

WHY DO WE TAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY EARN IT TO PAY FOR CRAP LIKE THIS? $100 LAUNDRY LOADS INCLUDED. And when the politicians or anyone else says that any of this is no big deal they really should be beaten. It's not their money, gawd-damn-it!

This is the salient point in all of this mess. The money still belongs to the American people, our elected representatives are the caretakers of that money. Every last one of us should be pissed off, not at the other side, but the rampant mismanagement and waste associated with our government. Our elected representatives are directly to blame for this as they not only control the overall budget, but they appoint people that are responsible for individual portions of it. But instead of using their power over fiscal policy to wisely spend that money for the benefit of the American people, it is steered into the hands of profiteering power brokers and pork barrel projects to attempt to buy the next round of elections.

 

But hey, y'all just keep thinking this is a red or blue problem.

[driveby]

So you don't then. By inference, you are cool with it, since you are not a "Bush-hater". Yet they are both wastes of money, why is one different to the other apart from the president's name? The Halliburton one is orders of magnitude greater than this research thing, so it would seem logical to me that you would be more enraged over that.

Let me try again.

 

War profiteering has always gone on. Sure I'm upset about Haliburton cashing in, but the Iraq war wasn't sold to us as a way to keep Haliburton from making more money than they were entitled to.

 

The Stimulus bill, however, was specifically packaged and sold as a way to generate shovel-ready jobs, keep unemployment below 8% and generally save the country - lo the world - from immediate diaster.

 

Sure Halliburton made out, but they were there providing a service. Researching african penis washing and the other nonsense this money has been wasted on is not even close to comparable.

[driveby]

This is the salient point in all of this mess. The money still belongs to the American people, our elected representatives are the caretakers of that money. Every last one of us should be pissed off, not at the other side, but the rampant mismanagement and waste associated with our government. Our elected representatives are directly to blame for this as they not only control the overall budget, but they appoint people that are responsible for individual portions of it. But instead of using their power over fiscal policy to wisely spend that money for the benefit of the American people, it is steered into the hands of profiteering power brokers and pork barrel projects to attempt to buy the next round of elections.

 

But hey, y'all just keep thinking this is a red or blue problem.

Agreed, hence the TEA partiers.

[Kid Cid]

Agreed, hence the TEA partiers.

Wrong. The TEA folks want business as usual for the right wing side of the aisle. They want change but only if it conforms to their narrow, conservative view of things. They are not a movement to resolve the fiscal crisis created by bloated government spending, they are a movement to gain power by cutting some government spending giving the appearance of acting in a fiscally responsible manner while still channeling funds to the appropriate power brokers.

 

The only movement that could effectively change anything is one that comes from a grass roots effort with no ties to the existing power structure. Otherwise, it's all just window dressing.

[driveby]

Wrong. The TEA folks want business as usual for the right wing side of the aisle. They want change but only if it conforms to their narrow, conservative view of things. They are not a movement to resolve the fiscal crisis created by bloated government spending, they are a movement to gain power by cutting some government spending giving the appearance of acting in a fiscally responsible manner while still channeling funds to the appropriate power brokers.

 

The only movement that could effectively change anything is one that comes from a grass roots effort with no ties to the existing power structure. Otherwise, it's all just window dressing.

All good in theory, but you and I know this grass roots effort will never happen in today's modern society. The TEA party gives real hope and change to the people who are tired of precisely the things you mentioned above. Will things change much with the TEA party in charge? Maybe not, but it's a start and better than the status quo.

[Ursa Majoris]

You're exactly right, and you prove (by your lack of outrage here) that guys like you and grungie are just the other side of the coin to driveby. You're the same animal, just a different color.

Bullchit. Absolute crap. You and Driveby (truly two animals of the same color) get all worked up over $850k because it's under the Obama administration, no more, no less. When billions - yes, billions - were being channeled into the Halliburton pocket for services not performed neither of you was anywhere to be found. I'll save my outrage for things worthy of it such as a trillion dollar war we didn't have to fight, the plethora (nearly 7,000 of them) of pseudo-government security agencies (that one IS on Obama's watch, BTW), multi-billion dollar Pentagon overruns on useless weapon systems and the routine defrauding of Medicare by the health industry (another thing not fixed by Obana and his admin).

 

Meanwhile, you go on fussing about this $850k.

[Kid Cid]

All good in theory, but you and I know this grass roots effort will never happen in today's modern society. The TEA party gives real hope and change to the people who are tired of precisely the things you mentioned above. Will things change much with the TEA party in charge? Maybe not, but it's a start and better than the status quo.

No, the TEA party does not give real hope and change and I think this is the part that you're missing. In fact, I would characterize the TEA movement as yet more of the same BS with a different set of clothes on. Oh yeah, there's a lot more strings attached as well. Would things change with the TEA party? Probably not that much, except in the order of a strong conservative agenda being pushed for this country, something I think would be detrimental in the long run. If the TEA party was solely about fiscal responsibility then perhaps it would make sense to back even the little hope they represent. However, nothing comes for free and the ideology of the right is far too intertwined with everything this party represents.

[Perchoutofwater]

You're exactly right, and you prove (by your lack of outrage here) that guys like you and grungie are just the other side of the coin to driveby. You're the same animal, just a different color.

 

WHY DO WE TAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY EARN IT TO PAY FOR CRAP LIKE THIS? $100 LAUNDRY LOADS INCLUDED. And when the politicians or anyone else says that any of this is no big deal they really should be beaten. It's not their money, gawd-damn-it!

 

Halliburton is a royal mess, and it should be audited, and anything payed to them that was not earned should be paid back to the government with interest. Most government cost-plus contracts allow a 7 year auditing period. At the time Ursa and his "progressive" friends started complaining about this, I wasn't to worried, because I knew about the auditing procedures, and fully expected the audits to be done. My question is why haven't the audits been done? Or have they been done, but not proven the claims of Ursa and his gang? If the audits find anything Halliburton should be on the hook to pay the government back with interest, which is why I wasn't all that worried about it at the time.

 

Paying funds for African genital washing research, particularly in a time like this is asinine and that anyone can try to make excuses for it or throw out red herrings to try to turn the discussion elsewhere is very telling. I was opposed to the stimulus bill because I knew crap like this would be going down though admittedly I thought they would at least consider problems on this continent rather than half the world away. Lord knows, we have enough problems here at home.

[driveby]

Bullchit. Absolute crap. You and Driveby (truly two animals of the same color) get all worked up over $850k because it's under the Obama administration, no more, no less. When billions - yes, billions - were being channeled into the Halliburton pocket for services not performed neither of you was anywhere to be found. I'll save my outrage for things worthy of it such as a trillion dollar war we didn't have to fight, the plethora (nearly 7,000 of them) of pseudo-government security agencies (that one IS on Obama's watch, BTW), multi-billion dollar Pentagon overruns on useless weapon systems and the routine defrauding of Medicare by the health industry (another thing not fixed by Obana and his admin).

 

Meanwhile, you go on fussing about this $850k.

Again, we agree to disagree.

 

I know it must be getting harder and harder to justify your support of the current administration so I under your short temper and frustration.

[Perchoutofwater]

No, the TEA party does not give real hope and change and I think this is the part that you're missing. In fact, I would characterize the TEA movement as yet more of the same BS with a different set of clothes on. Oh yeah, there's a lot more strings attached as well. Would things change with the TEA party? Probably not that much, except in the order of a strong conservative agenda being pushed for this country, something I think would be detrimental in the long run. If the TEA party was solely about fiscal responsibility then perhaps it would make sense to back even the little hope they represent. However, nothing comes for free and the ideology of the right is far too intertwined with everything this party represents.

 

Most of the TEA party events I've gone to are about fiscal conservatism and returning to the letter of the constitution. Admittedly Odonnel or what ever her name is, is a very religious person, and frankly a bad candidate, but the lessor of two evils when you consider her opponent in the primary supported both the stimulus bill and Cap and Tax legislation. Anyway I digress, the majority of the TEA party while probably much more religious in inclinations then your average progressive gathering isn't about social issues, it is about fiscal issues and returning the country back to the constitution. Yes there is some fringe to the party that is more "Christian Conservative", but the majority at this point anyway based on what I've actually seen at the events I've attended are much more focused on government spending and reducing the size and power of the federal government. Moral issues for lack of a better term have hardly been discussed at all.

[driveby]

Most of the TEA party events I've gone to are about fiscal conservatism and returning to the letter of the constitution. Admittedly Odonnel or what ever her name is, is a very religious person, and frankly a bad candidate, but the lessor of two evils when you consider her opponent in the primary supported both the stimulus bill and Cap and Tax legislation. Anyway I digress, the majority of the TEA party while probably much more religious in inclinations then your average progressive gathering isn't about social issues, it is about fiscal issues and returning the country back to the constitution. Yes there is some fringe to the party that is more "Christian Conservative", but the majority at this point anyway based on what I've actually seen at the events I've attended are much more focused on government spending and reducing the size and power of the federal government. Moral issues for lack of a better term have hardly been discussed at all.

Perch it's easier to dismiss the TEA party as just a bunch of racist kooks.

[driveby]

Hey look, Kid got published in the NY Times.

[Ursa Majoris]

 

Halliburton is a royal mess, and it should be audited, and anything payed to them that was not earned should be paid back to the government with interest. Most government cost-plus contracts allow a 7 year auditing period. At the time Ursa and his "progressive" friends started complaining about this, I wasn't to worried, because I knew about the auditing procedures, and fully expected the audits to be done. My question is why haven't the audits been done? Or have they been done, but not proven the claims of Ursa and his gang? If the audits find anything Halliburton should be on the hook to pay the government back with interest, which is why I wasn't all that worried about it at the time.

 

Paying funds for African genital washing research, particularly in a time like this is asinine and that anyone can try to make excuses for it or throw out red herrings to try to turn the discussion elsewhere is very telling. I was opposed to the stimulus bill because I knew crap like this would be going down though admittedly I thought they would at least consider problems on this continent rather than half the world away. Lord knows, we have enough problems here at home.

I have to wonder if the RNC monitors this site, it's so incredibly difficult to get any of you dyed-in-the-wool righties to say a word against anything the right has ever done or not done. Maybe they'll drum you out of the party. Here we are discussing a $850k grant under Obama's watch - hugh scandal! - yet billions gone down the tube under the previous admin are a red herring.

[driveby]

Wow, this is scaring the bejusus out of the Dems. They're coming unglued.

 

On the eve of the primary that would end his electoral career, Rep. Mike Castle was in a reflective mood. He seemed calm and confident, yet almost everything he said sounded valedictory as he offered a prescient analysis that explained in advance a defeat that echoed throughout the nation.

 

A genial and courtly man in the manner of the elder President Bush (who held a fundraiser for him in Kennebunkport), the nine-term congressman was mourning the decline of both the conciliatory style of politics that animated his career and the moderate Republican disposition that the tea parties are determined to destroy.

 

"There are issues on which, as Republicans and Democrats, we should sit down and work out our differences," Castle said Monday night as we sat outside at Kelly's Logan House, a watering hole where he has gathered his closest supporters the night before every election since his first victory, for the neighborhood's state legislative seat, in 1966.

 

When they say good things about you it shows you're ineffective as a Republican. :see McCain, John:

[TimC]

How much did we spend to teach the French and Italians how to bathe? Yeah, that was a waste of money also, obviously. Jeebus, we'd settle for at least using deodorant instead.

[Perchoutofwater]

I have to wonder if the RNC monitors this site, it's so incredibly difficult to get any of you dyed-in-the-wool righties to say a word against anything the right has ever done or not done. Maybe they'll drum you out of the party. Here we are discussing a $850k grant under Obama's watch - hugh scandal! - yet billions gone down the tube under the previous admin are a red herring.

 

Again what Halliburton charged to the government is open for audit for 7 years, that is the only reason I'm not jumping up and down right beside you. Have they been audited? If not why not? If they have, why hasn't the report been publicized? You can blame whomever you like, but both parties have had a chance to audit the books, if it hasn't been done already. I'm no more a dyed in the wool righie than you are a died in the wool leftie, and maybe less so based on the way you've either been quite or providing cover.

[westvirginia]

Bullchit. Absolute crap. You and Driveby (truly two animals of the same color) get all worked up over $850k because it's under the Obama administration, no more, no less. When billions - yes, billions - were being channeled into the Halliburton pocket for services not performed neither of you was anywhere to be found. I'll save my outrage for things worthy of it such as a trillion dollar war we didn't have to fight, the plethora (nearly 7,000 of them) of pseudo-government security agencies (that one IS on Obama's watch, BTW), multi-billion dollar Pentagon overruns on useless weapon systems and the routine defrauding of Medicare by the health industry (another thing not fixed by Obana and his admin).

 

Meanwhile, you go on fussing about this $850k.

 

I blasted the patsy act. I blasted shrub for 8 years for "spending like a drunken sailor in a wh0rehouse" those are my words, search the forum. How about being outraged at a trillion-dollar stimulus we didn't have to spend? A trillion+ dollar healthcare boondoggle that's going to cost more in the long run and was passed by lying, special-interest back-room deals.

 

I've made more than adequate criticisms of all of these politicians - both sides of the aisle. I agree with you that the Pentagon must be changed, that Haliburton and private security mercenaries are distasteful. You just can't handle it because this is YOUR guy that you put so much faith in, and he's clearly packaged himself in lies to get elected. Don't take it personally, it's not your fault he lied to you and everyone else. He's clearly out of his depth, lacking the experience, judgment and advisers to hold the position he has. He's a failure. The economics of Carter with the foreign policy judgment of Neville Chamberlain.

 

And even if that weren't the case, there is one hugh difference between the haliburton issue and this one - the haliburton issue is that of a contractor bilking the government. With this issue, some politician asked for it, and others of them signed off on it, hook, line and sinker.

 

I'll tell you what, I'll help you shoot the 1 in ten managing traders if we can shoot 1 in 3 politicians.

[Kid Cid]

If anyone truly thinks that electing representative of the Tea Party to office will result in anything except more of the same then you are drinking the exact same kool aid that the majority of the public did when they bought Obama's line about Hope and Change.

[westvirginia]

If anyone truly thinks that electing representative of the Tea Party to office will result in anything except more of the same then you are drinking the exact same kool aid that the majority of the public did when they bought Obama's line about Hope and Change.

 

As a rule, you're right. I think it will probably take 3-4 of these 2-year election cycles to get the gov't back under control - and that's if "we the people" stay engaged that long. We have to elect representatives based on what they say - not much choice in that. But if they don't do what they say, we have to throw them out and try the next one on for size.

 

The one thing that is very heartening is the fact that sitting senators and house members of several terms are actually losing their primaries. That's the one thing that gives me real hope in all this. With that guy Bennett in Utah and Specter in PA losing out, I'm really heartened. People are saying, essentially, "we know what you are and don't like you, so let's try out someone else". That gives me hope.

[Perchoutofwater]

If anyone truly thinks that electing representative of the Tea Party to office will result in anything except more of the same then you are drinking the exact same kool aid that the majority of the public did when they bought Obama's line about Hope and Change.

 

Your right, we should all just give up. Give all of our money to the the government and hope they will take care of us. Sure the TEA party is more in line with what the GOP says it stands for, but honestly the GOP hasn't been doing what it says it stands for years, and if you are for smaller less intrusive government you can't vote for a democrat.

[bpwallace49]

I think it will probably take 3-4 of these 2-year election cycles to get the gov't back under control .

 

 

I never thought I would see the day . . . . WV . . the doe-eyed dreamer . . . .