Roto on Vick

[gbpfan1231]

Because you saw the pattern of abuse starting with frying ants with a magnifying glass, then moving on to microwaving frogs, then lighting cats on fire, and finally escalating to torturing dogs for the thrill, right?

 

He didn't torture/kill them for no reason. Sure, his reasoning was morally reprehensible to 99% of us, but to him and his ilk it was the order of things. After his incarceration and extreme fall from grace, I think he MAY have been reformed. Why couldn't he, while hitting rock bottom, have come to the realization that his reasoning was seriously flawed and that what he was doing was horribly wrong? Because you're too closed-minded to fathom it?

I always thought the people in this world were becoming dumber and dumber and it is now confirmed.

[rajncajn]

Why is there so much hatred for Vick, who was tried, convicted and did his time? Not a word about Donte Stallworth or many of the other NFL players who committed crimes against actual people.

 

If we are going to draft people based on their morality, you will end up with a pretty small pool to chose from.

 

I don't condone what he did, but he is a football player, not your kid's Sunday School teacher.

Yeah, I do find it disappointing that someone like Stallworth is able to still play in the NFL after what happened, IMO though there is a bit of a difference between one huge lack of judgment resulting in a person's life with what Vick did. It wasn't like he went out and accidentally killed dogs. He wanted to do it, he enjoyed doing it and if he didn't get caught he'd still be doing it.

[Duchess Jack]

Why is there so much hatred for Vick, who was tried, convicted and did his time? Not a word about Donte Stallworth or many of the other NFL players who committed crimes against actual people.

 

If we are going to draft people based on their morality, you will end up with a pretty small pool to chose from.

 

I don't condone what he did, but he is a football player, not your kid's Sunday School teacher.

 

hey... Manson can be parolled tomorrow, I am still going to hate him.

 

The difference between Leonard Little, Stallworth and Vick is that Little and Stallworth had serious, serious errors in judgement. It doesn't make what they did right - or justify them, but they didn't wake up one day and say - hey, I am going to have a few drinks and run over a guy today.

 

On the other hand - Vick - did wake up and say - I am going to torture and kill animals for profit today. I make more money than 99% of America, but I am going to murder animals for money. I could pay somebody to do it for me - but nope - I am a hard worker and like to get my hands dirty.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Duchess Jack

[rajncajn]

Because you saw the pattern of abuse starting with frying ants with a magnifying glass, then moving on to microwaving frogs, then lighting cats on fire, and finally escalating to torturing dogs for the thrill, right?

 

He didn't torture/kill them for no reason. Sure, his reasoning was morally reprehensible to 99% of us, but to him and his ilk it was the order of things. After his incarceration and extreme fall from grace, I think he MAY have been reformed. Why couldn't he, while hitting rock bottom, have come to the realization that his reasoning was seriously flawed and that what he was doing was horribly wrong? Because you're too closed-minded to fathom it?

It's my opinion that he is not reformed and it's my opinion that he knew all along that he would get another chance in the NFL if he acted all contrite and reformed. Now he's cashing in. I would have to seriously consider spending 23 months in jail if I knew for a fact I'd be a millionaire and treated like a hero when I got out.

[delusions of grandeur]

It's my opinion that he is not reformed and it's my opinion that he knew all along that he would get another chance in the NFL if he acted all contrite and reformed. Now he's cashing in. I would have to seriously consider spending 23 months in jail if I knew for a fact I'd be a millionaire and treated like a hero when I got out.

 

But the real question is, would you consider doing it again, after having to give back a large bulk of your previous big paycheck, and being on parole facing a potentially larger sentence if you don't keep your nose clean...

 

After all of the crap Vick did as a Falcon (or didn't do, if we're talking on-field preperation), I'm confident that IF he hasn't changed his ways, he'll find another stupid reason to get locked back up and lose it all.. But until that happens, who's to say he can't perform his god-given talent, so long as he continues to keep his nose clean and is actually working to be a better QB....

 

Further, to all of the people who think Vick is an irreformable monster, let me ask you this: Have you ever heard a fantasy owner say "I wish Player X would tear his ACL", or even cheer about an injury... No, it's not the same thing, but it can show you how a person can become disattached from ethics when massive greed, or in the case of his colleagues growing up poor, might have to do with their careless attitude.... It makes me think of how some corporations will commit heinous acts against the public/environment purely in the name of profit. It's not that they're thinking about the consequences, it's that they're not.... They're being greedy and selfish, with no regard for others.... But does that mean they cannot see the light and change their ways, especially after incarceration and financial loss?

 

To think that someone cannot be reformed completely dismisses why they might have committed the act in the first place, and suggests a very cynical view of humanity... But again, if you want to believe that he's a thug for life, then there's no doubt he'll find a way to get locked up; But until that happens and you're selected for his jury of peers, it's no one's place to judge whether he can perform a job, unrelated to his previous misdeeds, that he's obviously qualified for...

[rajncajn]

But the real question is, would you consider doing it again, after having to give back a large bulk of your previous big paycheck, and being on parole facing a potentially larger sentence if you don't keep your nose clean...

 

After all of the crap Vick did as a Falcon (or didn't do, if we're talking on-field preperation), I'm confident that IF he hasn't changed his ways, he'll find another stupid reason to get locked back up and lose it all.. But until that happens, who's to say he can't perform his god-given talent, so long as he continues to keep his nose clean and is actually working to be a better QB....

Stay outta trouble, get paid & be a hero. I'm pretty sure that won't be such a hard task for him. That doesn't mean he's sorry for what he's done

 

Further, to all of the people who think Vick is an irreformable monster, let me ask you this: Have you ever heard a fantasy owner say "I wish Player X would tear his ACL", or even cheer about an injury... No, it's not the same thing, but it can show you how a person can become disattached from ethics when massive greed, or in the case of his colleagues growing up poor, might have to do with their careless attitude.... It makes me think of how some corporations will commit heinous acts against the public/environment purely in the name of profit. It's not that they're thinking about the consequences, it's that they're not.... They're being greedy and selfish, with no regard for others.... But does that mean they cannot see the light and change their ways, especially after incarceration and financial loss?

As Mr Cliche' would say, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Sure, anyone can change their ways and see the light. I just have serious doubts that Vick has. Put it this way, I'd be willing to bet that if you gave every convicted felon millions of dollars & treated them like heroes if only they kept out of trouble then I think you would have a hell of a lot less repeat offenders and a hell of a lot more first time offenders.

 

To think that someone cannot be reformed completely dismisses why they might have committed the act in the first place, and suggests a very cynical view of humanity... But again, if you want to believe that he's a thug for life, then there's no doubt he'll find a way to get locked up; But until that happens and you're selected for his jury of peers, it's no one's place to judge whether he can perform a job, unrelated to his previous misdeeds, that he's obviously qualified for...

You're right, it's not my place to decide whether he can play in the NFL or not, but I do have every right to disagree with that decision and I have every right to decide that he will not be part of any fantasy team I own. If the only person that hurts is me and if anyone wants to look down on me for it then I can certainly live with that.

[detlef]

hey... Manson can be parolled tomorrow, I am still going to hate him.

 

The difference between Leonard Little, Stallworth and Vick is that Little and Stallworth had serious, serious errors in judgement. It doesn't make what they did right - or justify them, but they didn't wake up one day and say - hey, I am going to have a few drinks and run over a guy today.

 

On the other hand - Vick - did wake up and say - I am going to torture and kill animals for profit today. I make more money than 99% of America, but I am going to murder animals for money. I could pay somebody to do it for me - but nope - I am a hard worker and like to get my hands dirty.

Well, let's be clear. After killing someone while driving with a BAC over twice the limit, one would think that, were this a "serious error in judgment" anyone would either vow to never drive again. Or never drink again. But certainly, no doubt at all, never drink and drive again. Not even a drop. Not ol' Leonard, after being charged with vehicular manslaughter and getting off, two years later he was pulled over for reckless driving and failed 3 roadside sobriety tests. For some reason, he was later found not guilty but that smells more like having a good lawyer than anything else.

[cre8tiff]

hey... Manson can be parolled tomorrow, I am still going to hate him.

 

The difference between Leonard Little, Stallworth and Vick is that Little and Stallworth had serious, serious errors in judgement. It doesn't make what they did right - or justify them, but they didn't wake up one day and say - hey, I am going to have a few drinks and run over a guy today.

 

On the other hand - Vick - did wake up and say - I am going to torture and kill animals for profit today. I make more money than 99% of America, but I am going to murder animals for money. I could pay somebody to do it for me - but nope - I am a hard worker and like to get my hands dirty.

 

That's a good point, Jack. Intention is a major quantifier. Not a lot of love left for Rae Carruth, for example. Of course, the Ray Lewis example kinda undermines it.

[cre8tiff]

Well, let's be clear. After killing someone while driving with a BAC over twice the limit, one would think that, were this a "serious error in judgment" anyone would either vow to never drive again. Or never drink again. But certainly, no doubt at all, never drink and drive again. Not even a drop. Not ol' Leonard, after being charged with vehicular manslaughter and getting off, two years later he was pulled over for reckless driving and failed 3 roadside sobriety tests. For some reason, he was later found not guilty but that smells more like having a good lawyer than anything else.

 

You could smell that all the way to NC? And here I thought it was just strong here in STL... ;-)

[delusions of grandeur]

Stay outta trouble, get paid & be a hero. I'm pretty sure that won't be such a hard task for him. That doesn't mean he's sorry for what he's done

 

Sure, anyone can change their ways and see the light. I just have serious doubts that Vick has. Put it this way, I'd be willing to bet that if you gave every convicted felon millions of dollars & treated them like heroes if only they kept out of trouble then I think you would have a hell of a lot less repeat offenders and a hell of a lot more first time offenders.

 

It's not really a concern to me how remorseful he is, as much as him not doing reprehensible things like that. I thought people cared about the dogs, not that another low-character guy is getting a paycheck for being talented.

 

Don't you see, it's not just a matter of "giving" convicted felons money upon re-entry to society, as if to reward their behavior. It is one of the bases of capitalism that you are compensated according to your earning potential for profit, not for how valuable your job is to society, or whether you actually deserve that much. In an ideal world, it would make more sense for teachers to be paid far more than felon football players, but that's not how things work...

 

He's being paid because he has an amazing talent that can win games and put the fans in the seats, earning those owners alot of money.... So let's not forget that if he didn't work hard to progress beyond the lazy innaccurate trouble-making QB he was with Atlanta, he'd still be sitting on the bench or worse ( and IIRC having his paychecks still being garnished.)

 

 

You're right, it's not my place to decide whether he can play in the NFL or not, but I do have every right to disagree with that decision and I have every right to decide that he will not be part of any fantasy team I own. If the only person that hurts is me and if anyone wants to look down on me for it then I can certainly live with that.

 

Don't get me wrong. Especially being an Atlanta fan and shelter dog owner, it drives me crazy to have to go up against him in fantasy and potentially the NFC playoffs, and I don't want any part of him on my fantasy team.... If he continues to act like he did before, then I'll be with you condemning him, but I guess I just want to believe that any person is capable of changing, especially when you have the public to constantly remind you of what a scumbag you were.

Edited December 21, 2010 by delusions of granduer

[jrandall]

Stay outta trouble, get paid & be a hero. I'm pretty sure that won't be such a hard task for him. That doesn't mean he's sorry for what he's done

 

Sure, anyone can change their ways and see the light. I just have serious doubts that Vick has. Put it this way, I'd be willing to bet that if you gave every convicted felon millions of dollars & treated them like heroes if only they kept out of trouble then I think you would have a hell of a lot less repeat offenders and a hell of a lot more first time offenders.

 

He had a whole lot more money before prison, and was treated even better....

 

What would happen if you gave every ex convict the job they had when convicted, but with more pressure and half as much money? It would probably look like the system we have in place.

[detlef]

You're right, it's not my place to decide whether he can play in the NFL or not, but I do have every right to disagree with that decision and I have every right to decide that he will not be part of any fantasy team I own. If the only person that hurts is me and if anyone wants to look down on me for it then I can certainly live with that.

So, in your opinion, what jobs should he be allowed to perform? Why is advancing a leather ball down a football field while guys are trying to take your head off something that he shouldn't be allowed to do?

 

I asked this before and nobody answered it. What if he was a singer? Should he not be allowed to record and sell records?

 

Or is it the money? Should there be a cap on how much money a guy is allowed to make after he's gone to jail?

 

It sounds to me like you're basically advocating a life sentence, but you only have to spend part of it in jail. The rest of your life you are free to live in society, but you're only allowed to do menial work for little money. Because, if that's the case, we might as well execute people for a lot more than we do. If they're not allowed to actually and truly rejoin society and get paid what they can, then what's the point.

 

If this is not your opinion, please clarify it for me.

 

And, listen, I like dogs probably more than people. I'm not in 1000 years trying to excuse Vick in anyway at all for what he did.

 

Also, don't confuse my point above with saying that every ex con should be welcomed into every place of employment the same as a guy who's kept his nose clean. And, believe me, Vick certainly wasn't. It's not like he came out of jail and every GM was standing there with a bouquet and a fat check begging him to come play for them. At any rate, if a dude goes to jail and serves his time and somehow lands a job and does great at it, at what point is he allowed to get credit for doing that job well?

[rajncajn]

It's not really a concern to me how remorseful he is, as much as him not doing reprehensible things like that. I thought people cared about the dogs, not that another low-character guy is getting a paycheck for being talented.

 

Don't you see, it's not just a matter of "giving" convicted felons money upon re-entry to society, as if to reward their behavior. It is one of the bases of capitalism that you are compensated according to your earning potential for profit, not for how valuable your job is to society, or whether you actually deserve that much. In an ideal world, it would make more sense for teachers to be paid far more than felon football players, but that's not how things work...

 

He's being paid because he has an amazing talent that can win games and put the fans in the seats, earning those owners alot of money.... So let's not forget that if he didn't work hard to progress beyond the lazy innaccurate trouble-making QB he was with Atlanta, he'd still be sitting on the bench or worse ( and IIRC having his paychecks still being garnished.)

 

Call me crazy, I just don't like seeing someone just outta prison, doing the things he did, making the kind of money he's making and being treated like a king. Sorry, I just don't see the justice in that whether he's reformed or not and take offense to you saying it's about the money and not because I care what he did to the dogs.

Edited December 21, 2010 by rajncajn

[Hugh 0ne]

Because you saw the pattern of abuse starting with frying ants with a magnifying glass, then moving on to microwaving frogs, then lighting cats on fire, and finally escalating to torturing dogs for the thrill, right?

 

He didn't torture/kill them for no reason. Sure, his reasoning was morally reprehensible to 99% of us, but to him and his ilk it was the order of things. After his incarceration and extreme fall from grace, I think he MAY have been reformed. Why couldn't he, while hitting rock bottom, have come to the realization that his reasoning was seriously flawed and that what he was doing was horribly wrong? Because you're too closed-minded to fathom it?

 

Come on TNG, you think you'd be posting the same thing if he was the Cowboys QB?

 

He's a POS. Just because he served his time, that makes what he did go away? You think serving his time makes him noble? He served his time because he got caught and had no choice.

 

If a child molestor or rapist or murderer serves his time, when they get out, we should all embrace them and welcome them into our communities with open arms? Sorry, not in my community.

[delusions of grandeur]

Call me crazy, I just don't like seeing someone just outta prison, doing the things he did, making the kind of money he's making and being treated like a king. Sorry, I just don't see the justice in that whether he's reformed or not and take offense to you saying it's about the money and not because I care what he did to the dogs.

 

Not trying to put words in your mouth. I realize his treatment of animals is the crux of the issue. I just want to put into perspective that his situation is not much different from what goes on all the time regarding felons. I think detlef said it best, so I'll leave it at that.

[rajncajn]

So, in your opinion, what jobs should he be allowed to perform? Why is advancing a leather ball down a football field while guys are trying to take your head off something that he shouldn't be allowed to do?

 

I asked this before and nobody answered it. What if he was a singer? Should he not be allowed to record and sell records?

 

Or is it the money? Should there be a cap on how much money a guy is allowed to make after he's gone to jail?

 

It sounds to me like you're basically advocating a life sentence, but you only have to spend part of it in jail. The rest of your life you are free to live in society, but you're only allowed to do menial work for little money. Because, if that's the case, we might as well execute people for a lot more than we do. If they're not allowed to actually and truly rejoin society and get paid what they can, then what's the point.

 

If this is not your opinion, please clarify it for me.

 

And, listen, I like dogs probably more than people. I'm not in 1000 years trying to excuse Vick in anyway at all for what he did.

 

Also, don't confuse my point above with saying that every ex con should be welcomed into every place of employment the same as a guy who's kept his nose clean. And, believe me, Vick certainly wasn't. It's not like he came out of jail and every GM was standing there with a bouquet and a fat check begging him to come play for them. At any rate, if a dude goes to jail and serves his time and somehow lands a job and does great at it, at what point is he allowed to get credit for doing that job well?

If I committed the acts that he did should my previous employer be expected to give me a job? Would that previous employer be looked down upon if they said no? Why is it so hard for anyone to understand why I don't think he should have been allowed back in the NFL? Although I think there's no justice in it, it's not about the money with me. But it's obvious to me that it's ALL about the money with the NFL. I don't think that he's remorseful for what he did, that's my opinion. I think he's sorry he got caught and he knows that if he wants to be rich he'll stay out of trouble this time and it makes me sick to see the way the NFL and the sports media slobber all over him like he's the savior of the league.

[Hugh 0ne]

If I committed the acts that he did should my previous employer be expected to give me a job? Would that previous employer be looked down upon if they said no? Why is it so hard for anyone to understand why I don't think he should have been allowed back in the NFL? Although I think there's no justice in it, it's not about the money with me. But it's obvious to me that it's ALL about the money with the NFL. I don't think that he's remorseful for what he did, that's my opinion. I think he's sorry he got caught and he knows that if he wants to be rich he'll stay out of trouble this time and it makes me sick to see the way the NFL and the sports media slobber all over him like he's the savior of the league.

 

If you worked for me, went to jail for dog-fighting, and served your time, there's not a snow-balls chance in hell that you'd ever work for me again. But that's just me I guess.

 

And I wouldn't give a leaping f*ck if people looked down upon me for that.

[detlef]

If I committed the acts that he did should my previous employer be expected to give me a job? Would that previous employer be looked down upon if they said no? Why is it so hard for anyone to understand why I don't think he should have been allowed back in the NFL? Although I think there's no justice in it, it's not about the money with me. But it's obvious to me that it's ALL about the money with the NFL. I don't think that he's remorseful for what he did, that's my opinion. I think he's sorry he got caught and he knows that if he wants to be rich he'll stay out of trouble this time and it makes me sick to see the way the NFL and the sports media slobber all over him like he's the savior of the league.

You didn't answer my question. What jobs should he be allowed to do?

 

And, btw, his previous employer was the Atlanta Falcons, not the NFL. And they didn't offer him a job. The Eagles did. They said, "What the hell, kid, let's see what you've got." And they were pretty much the only ones who did. And took some crap for it.

 

Ex cons do get jobs. It's OK if you don't want to hire them. I'm not particularly fond of it myself. But people are allowed to do so. And, if, perish the thought, the ex con kicks ass in that new job, should there be some sort of cap on how much he can make?

 

And, for the record, I'm impressed by what he's doing on the field, and am still not a fan. I'll likely never be able to see him as anything but the guy who tortured and killed dogs.

 

I guess I just stopped idolizing football players long ago, so I'm able to appreciate they're skills without deifying them.

[rajncajn]

If you worked for me, went to jail for dog-fighting, and served your time, there's not a snow-balls chance in hell that you'd ever work for me again. But that's just me I guess.

 

And I wouldn't give a leaping f*ck if people looked down upon me for that.

Exactly, "Hey bud... I wish the best for you & I'm glad that you've seen the light, but I'm sorry. You're going to have to go make your coin in the CFL from now on."

[rajncajn]

You didn't answer my question. What jobs should he be allowed to do?

 

And, btw, his previous employer was the Atlanta Falcons, not the NFL. And they didn't offer him a job. The Eagles did. They said, "What the hell, kid, let's see what you've got." And they were pretty much the only ones who did. And took some crap for it.

 

Ex cons do get jobs. It's OK if you don't want to hire them. I'm not particularly fond of it myself. But people are allowed to do so. And, if, perish the thought, the ex con kicks ass in that new job, should there be some sort of cap on how much he can make?

 

And, for the record, I'm impressed by what he's doing on the field, and am still not a fan. I'll likely never be able to see him as anything but the guy who tortured and killed dogs.

 

I guess I just stopped idolizing football players long ago, so I'm able to appreciate they're skills without deifying them.

It's a stupid question. Do you really want me to make a list? Let's start with dog park waste management technician.

 

BTW, Vick is employed by the NFL. It is their decision whether he's allowed to work for a team or not.

[Duchess Jack]

I believe in rehabilitation. I have to. It gives people a reason to try. It gives people a reason to better themselves. If folk will always be seen as what they once did, then what reason is there for them every to put the effort into changing.

 

This is applicable to Vick. He has every right to play football - but I have every right to hate him. As consumers, we can do at least a little bit to help this by not supporting him, by not buying Vick (or Eagles) merchandise and by speaking our minds. Its a small thing, but its something.

[detlef]

It's a stupid question. Do you really want me to make a list? Let's start with dog park waste management technician.

 

BTW, Vick is employed by the NFL. It is their decision whether he's allowed to work for a team or not.

No, it's just that the answer to it is inconvenient. So, you're fine that he can play football, just not for the NFL? Is that it? You just don't want the specific employer who hired him before to hire him back.

 

So, back to my singer question. Say a top artist who is signed by Columbia commits a horrible crime. Serves their time and, then when they get out, signs with Atlantic and records an amazing album. Best album of it's genre ever. You may hate the dude, but you can't help but recognize that the songs are just amazing. What about that? They're getting paid. They're back in the limelight. In fact, this is even sort of worse because it's all about them. See, Eagles fans didn't buy season tickets this year to see Vick. He wasn't even the starting QB until Kolb went down. He just happens to be tearing it up on the field now. But if he dropped dead tomorrow, it would be business as usual. With the singer, people are specifically buying their album.

 

So should Atlantic refuse to sign this person? And on what grounds? To punish them? I thought that was the job of the justice system. Should the CFL refuse to sign Vick? Should anyone ever hire him to do anything? Like I said, what sort of job is it cool for him to have? Or does committing a crime that is not punishable by death may as well be so because nobody should ever hire you do to anything ever again.

 

You do realize that you're implying this.

 

Oh, and btw, I'm not saying the NFL should have been required to hire the guy back. I'm just saying that, considering some of the types the NFL employs, this would be a strange place to start being goodie-two-shoes. Like I've said all along. I don't look to the NFL for moral guidance. It's modern gladiators. These are not our finest men, just our strongest and fastest ones.

[The Next Generation]

I always thought the people in this world were becoming dumber and dumber and it is now confirmed.

 

How so, smart guy?

[The Next Generation]

It's my opinion that he is not reformed and it's my opinion that he knew all along that he would get another chance in the NFL if he acted all contrite and reformed. Now he's cashing in. I would have to seriously consider spending 23 months in jail if I knew for a fact I'd be a millionaire and treated like a hero when I got out.

 

So, to you, it's impossible that he could be truly sorry for what he did solely because he's a millionaire. Had he been a poor slob, only then could he truly be reformed.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Had he been a poor slob, only then could he truly be reformed.

and if he did'nt play for the eagles, you would'nt be so quick to rush in here and defend his sorry ass