What Do You Think

[SEC=UGA]

Be civil, please...

[peepinmofo]

In short, the beginning of our revolution here in the US.

[caddyman]

Be civil, please...

I think we have seen the beginning of the end for public unions. Considering 17 states have some sort of legislation on the table, those days are gone. They, like many unions got a little too greedy. That is what gets them in the end.

[gbpfan1231]

I will be civil (and I thought I have been).....

 

I am all for what the Repubs are trying to accomplish but I am not sure that what they did yesterday was the way to go about it. I also think the 14 Dems leaving the state was not the right way to go about it.

 

From what I am hearing - there is a law that says you need to give 24 hour notice before a meeting - why was there only a two hour notice? Why not wait the 24 hours?

 

If you watch the replay or hear what went on in the special committee the lone Dem asked what was in this new bill - the repub guy said - same bill as before - then the Dem said "Exactly the same?" - Repub - No we took some things out but the stuuff remaining is the same" - Dem wanted to know what came out - they ignored him and voted. Why not be proactive and have a one or two page memo explaining what came out and give the Dems 30 minutes to read it and then vote. Why the ram it down mentality?

 

I am speculating that the repubs knew somehoe that the Dems were not coming back so they said screw it and rammed it through.

 

I think this will hurt the repubs when it comes to public perception but in my opinion am OK with what they are passing - just not the methods.

[gbpfan1231]

Be civil, please...

I also hope the people in Madison stay civil. This could get ugly today.

[Ursa Majoris]

Is yet another thread on this really necessary? There are four others (one of which is admittedly closed).

[SEC=UGA]

The Republicans seemingly had to do something to force the Dems hand. It was necessary to pass this measure, in the manner in which it was passed, to continue the business of governing WI, it has dragged out too long.

 

At this stage I would hope that the dems return and debate can begin on the balance of the financial parts of the bill. At this juncture, however, the dems have no leverage, they lost this battle and any finance/spending bill that comes to the floor can be pushed through by the rep majority. It is really a no win for the dems.

 

I think that you will see fallout for the reps from the way in which this bill was passed, though it doesn't strike me as being much different from the manner in which the federal HC bill was passed.

[SEC=UGA]

Is yet another thread on this really necessary? There are four others (one of which is admittedly closed).

 

From quickly looking it appeared to me that all the threads had been closed.

 

That and I wanted to get opinions specifically on the instance of the manner in which the bill yesterday was passed, not necessarily a pissing contest as to whether unions should exist in the public sector and whether their benefits and wages should be done in the manner in which they are.

[Ursa Majoris]

From quickly looking it appeared to me that all the threads had been closed.

 

That and I wanted to get opinions specifically on the instance of the manner in which the bill yesterday was passed, not necessarily a pissing contest as to whether unions should exist in the public sector and whether their benefits and wages should be done in the manner in which they are.

Let me save you the trouble:

 

Right

Left

[SEC=UGA]

Let me save you the trouble:

 

Right

Left

 

What do you think. You can use only emoticons if you would like.

[borge007]

The way it was done yesterday was the wrong way to do it. Might does not make right. Negotiating needed to be done so all the players had equal access to have their opinions recognized. This is only another example that our political system(among too many other areas) is broken and must be fixed. Time will tell what the ramifications of yesterday's action will bring.

[SEC=UGA]

The way it was done yesterday was the wrong way to do it. Might does not make right. Negotiating needed to be done so all the players had equal access to have their opinions recognized. This is only another example that our political system(among too many other areas) is broken and must be fixed. Time will tell what the ramifications of yesterday's action will bring.

 

I could agree with this.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

I think that you will see fallout for the reps from the way in which this bill was passed, though it doesn't strike me as being much different from the manner in which the federal HC bill was passed.

 

I think the major difference between what happened in WI and the federal HC bill was that the people primarily responsible for getting the HC bill passed (Obama, Reid, Pelosi) passed something that was part of their party's platform, universal health care. It was something that they had been trying to accomplish for decades. Obama ran on it and it became his top priority when he entered office. From everything I have read no WI politician ran on stripping CB rights away from union workers. I think the voters in WI feel like they were blind-sided by the whole CB thing.

[SEC=UGA]

I think the major difference between what happened in WI and the federal HC bill was that the people primarily responsible for getting the HC bill passed (Obama, Reid, Pelosi) passed something that was part of their party's platform, universal health care. It was something that they had been trying to accomplish for decades. Obama ran on it and it became his top priority when he entered office. From everything I have read no WI politician ran on stripping CB rights away from union workers. I think the voters in WI feel like they were blind-sided by the whole CB thing.

 

Good point, did not know that.

[Brewer]

I think that it will be interesting to watch the recall efforts over the next few months.

[Savage Beatings]

I keep hearing that this will have national ramifications. I don't really believe that is true. I mean whatever ends up happening in WI is not necessarily going to happen exactly that same where everywhere else. It might be a kind of a wake up call for both sides that it's time to hash this issue out, but the beauty of the great experiment of the United States, is that there are 50 different laboratories for us to try different things and see what works and what doesn't. It's my opinion that most people are finding that collective bargaining for public employees is one of the things that does not work.

[Azazello1313]

I think that you will see fallout for the reps from the way in which this bill was passed, though it doesn't strike me as being much different from the manner in which the federal HC bill was passed.

 

sorta true. but with the health care bill, the leadership's problem was that they just didn't have the votes to pass the bill conventionally. so they had to resort to straight up bribes and such. attempting to throw a procedural block by simply fleeing the jurisdiction seems like sort of a novel concept to me, but I may be wrong. I wonder if we'll see more of it in the future? maybe they'll come up with a clever name for it that references wisconsin.

 

The way it was done yesterday was the wrong way to do it. Might does not make right. Negotiating needed to be done so all the players had equal access to have their opinions recognized.

 

hey I agree with that. but don't you sorta forfeit your right to negotiate and have your opinion recognized when you adopt the strategem of hiding in another state?

[Deathpig]

Welcome to the new era of American politics, where compromise ceases to exist and in its place both sides alternate ramming their stuff through and repealing whatever it is the other side did.

 

It was inevitable the way political discourse has turned away from any legitimate concern for the American people and instead vitriolic rhetoric aimed like some sort of corporate marketing at each party's base. Just look at any political discussion on these boards-- we're a microcosm of the problems that exist nationwide-- every discussion ends up as conflicting talking points and attempts to zing the other side. There's very little actual discussion, or even an attempt to understand the 'why'. Everyone believes they are right before, during, and after any exchange. Nothing said will sway anyone's opinions about anything, because 'discussion' here isn't about learning-- it's about 'staying on message' and 'hammering your point home' while playing to the friendly crowd and doing everything possible to (even if utterly intellectually dishonest) negate any counter argument (and if negation isn't possible, then ignoring or deflecting). Politics has become a 'beat the other team at all costs' game, and there's nothing positive that will come from it.

 

I don't think WI has national ramifications-- I think the contentious behavior at the national level has national ramifications, and WI is just the first domino to fall from that.

[gbpfan1231]

Let me save you the trouble:

 

Right

Left

Disgaree...

 

Me = Right =

[Azazello1313]

I think it's important to keep in mind that what they're doing in wisconsin really isn't all that remarkable. they already did close to the same thing in indiana several years ago, and several other states have also limited collective bargaining for public employees. the world didn't end. in fact, average teacher pay in indiana went up.

 

the reason this time is different is that nationally, the public sector unions and their puppet politicians see that they are really in an existential crisis. they see what's happening in new jersey. they see the last election, where just about the entire rust belt, union strongholds in days gone by, have elected republican governors promising to cut budgets and take on the unions. you see a movie like "waiting for superman" starting conversation nationwide that holds up a pretty harsh light to the teachers unions. you see alternative educational models actually working. and what you see here in response, for better or worse, is them fighting back with every gun in their arsenal. THAT's why this is such a national spectacle.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Azazello1313

[bpwallace49]

Welcome to the new era of American politics, where compromise ceases to exist and in its place both sides alternate ramming their stuff through and repealing whatever it is the other side did.

 

It was inevitable the way political discourse has turned away from any legitimate concern for the American people and instead vitriolic rhetoric aimed like some sort of corporate marketing at each party's base. Just look at any political discussion on these boards-- we're a microcosm of the problems that exist nationwide-- every discussion ends up as conflicting talking points and attempts to zing the other side. There's very little actual discussion, or even an attempt to understand the 'why'. Everyone believes they are right before, during, and after any exchange. Nothing said will sway anyone's opinions about anything, because 'discussion' here isn't about learning-- it's about 'staying on message' and 'hammering your point home' while playing to the friendly crowd and doing everything possible to (even if utterly intellectually dishonest) negate any counter argument (and if negation isn't possible, then ignoring or deflecting). Politics has become a 'beat the other team at all costs' game, and there's nothing positive that will come from it.

 

I don't think WI has national ramifications-- I think the contentious behavior at the national level has national ramifications, and WI is just the first domino to fall from that.

 

Extremely well said.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

Welcome to the new era of American politics, where compromise ceases to exist and in its place both sides alternate ramming their stuff through and repealing whatever it is the other side did.

 

It was inevitable the way political discourse has turned away from any legitimate concern for the American people and instead vitriolic rhetoric aimed like some sort of corporate marketing at each party's base. Just look at any political discussion on these boards-- we're a microcosm of the problems that exist nationwide-- every discussion ends up as conflicting talking points and attempts to zing the other side. There's very little actual discussion, or even an attempt to understand the 'why'. Everyone believes they are right before, during, and after any exchange. Nothing said will sway anyone's opinions about anything, because 'discussion' here isn't about learning-- it's about 'staying on message' and 'hammering your point home' while playing to the friendly crowd and doing everything possible to (even if utterly intellectually dishonest) negate any counter argument (and if negation isn't possible, then ignoring or deflecting). Politics has become a 'beat the other team at all costs' game, and there's nothing positive that will come from it.

 

I don't think WI has national ramifications-- I think the contentious behavior at the national level has national ramifications, and WI is just the first domino to fall from that.

 

 

I think you’re mostly right with this statement but I also think that there are people here who bring up some pretty good points on both sides of an argument. Often times they are able to shed some light on a subject that even though it may not completely change my mind it has caused me to look at some things differently from time to time. I think it’s important to know how someone on the opposite side of an argument from me feels. Even though I know that they are wrong.

[bpwallace49]

I think the coarsening of the political process is detrimental to us all. Perhaps it is a reflection of society, but what we have seen of the political process in WI isnt good for anybody. If Walker stuck to his guns about it being about the budget, evenly applied this process to ALL public unions, didnt have the lines about selling off state assets without oversight, didnt have the prank phone call situation, and didnt first push through a huge tax cut, then he would have been on much better footing. Then it IS just about the budget and facts, instead of the emotional hyperbole that has followed. When you single out segments, then you provide ralling cries of "war on teachers! ZOOMG!!" instead of calmly addressing ALL unions, NOT passing a tax break and leaving the state asset stuff OUT of the bill. Make it just about the budget and ALL public unions. Then you marginalize the protesters by refuting emotion with numbers. Plus Walker needs a censor for phone calls, to minimize the damage he can do on a freakin telephone call. All that distracts away from the issues.

 

If Walker just stuck to the facts from the beiginning and thought this through a little more, it probably could have gone much smoother and garnered more support from the people of Wisconsin. Now with all the recall talk and animosity, the pendulum will swing back left again instead of coming to the center from the far right area that it is in now. (and yes, when you have overwhelming majorities across the board, it has swung far to the right. Just like the fed gubment with the first two years of Obama. Overwhelming majorities are never good for anyone . . .)

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

I think it's a bad idea to have politicians who are elected thanks to campaign contributions from public unions at the negotiating table determining wages and benefits for those that helped get them elected. I believe that workers should have a right to choose to unionize and collectively bargain or stand alone in negotiations with management. I also believe that business and government has a right to either deal with a union or hire non-union workers.

 

Somehow governments need to have non-political 3rd party administrators involved in negotiation of wages and benefits with government workers. I'm not sure you can ever totally remove the potential for corruption out of the mix, but something needs to be done.

 

Edit to add: Pensions are completely out of control and need to be drastically cut. A co-worker's wife works for the city of Phoenix convention center and she can retire in her mid-50's and receive half her pay as a pension. That's ridiculous.

Edited March 10, 2011 by CaP'N GRuNGe

[alexgaddis]

Simple really, just nuke WI