Obama issues DREAM Act by Executive Order

[bushwacked]

economics, last I checked, is not a federal agency.

 

Oh...that makes complete and total sense with that caveat then. Yer not a hypocrite after all.

[Duchess Jack]

Stop being such a dou(he (I know, its hard for you to do that).

I saw something that caught my eye. I then posted it here. Dont make it sound like I was fabricating something to get people to go gaga over it.

 

Are you insinuating that there is no such thing as the DREAM Act?

settle down now. your posting it was premature. This knee jerk reaction is what is killing this country. Folk just wait for something that makes them feel afraid or angry or smarter and they jump all over it. There are people who are 100% invested in you taking the bait and you did. There are folk who make their money off of tearing us apart.

 

The DREAM act sucks. I cannot stand the very idea of it - but we have a system in place that is supposed to allow us to debate the merits and flaws of ideas and something like this ruins that system by feeding the hate and rumors and mud slinging. What you posted doesn't benefit you, the people reading the article or the country but the people who want to get you to vote a certain way using lies, innuendo, anger and fear.

 

It ruins the chance for debate. Look at us. We're debating the lies rather than the policy that may well be voted upon at some time soon. If we focus on the lies than all debate and votes will be based on them and fueled by them and have nothing to do with the facts or issues.

[peepinmofo]

settle down now. your posting it was premature. This knee jerk reaction is what is killing this country. Folk just wait for something that makes them feel afraid or angry or smarter and they jump all over it. There are people who are 100% invested in you taking the bait and you did. There are folk who make their money off of tearing us apart.

 

The DREAM act sucks. I cannot stand the very idea of it - but we have a system in place that is supposed to allow us to debate the merits and flaws of ideas and something like this ruins that system by feeding the hate and rumors and mud slinging. What you posted doesn't benefit you, the people reading the article or the country but the people who want to get you to vote a certain way using lies, innuendo, anger and fear.

 

It ruins the chance for debate. Look at us. We're debating the lies rather than the policy that may well be voted upon at some time soon. If we focus on the lies than all debate and votes will be based on them and fueled by them and have nothing to do with the facts or issues.

I didnt post it prematurely. I posted an article I saw that turned out to be untrue. How was I supposed to know it would turn out that way? Just because it wasnt on cnn doesnt mean it isnt something that is happening. While I understand your point about knee jerk reaction, I can assure you what I did (post an article on the Huddle) has NOTHING to do with what is killing this country. What IS killing this country is how people are brain washed in to believeing only what they see/read on the MSM. Everything that isnt in the MSM is automatically classified as a conspiracy, but that is for another topic.

[Duchess Jack]

where are they suppsed to get their info from? The "MSM" is not left or right. It just is. Its a bunch of corporate debbils and blowhards fighting for market share by telling people what they want to hear (be it cable news or talk radio). Do we listen to bloggers who by and large have the same agenda as journalists but nothing to hold them accountable?

 

I don't see how what I pointed out and the damage of an invested media is anything but the same.

 

And while your post might have been intended to be informative, the accompanied "Can he try any harder to get people to like him?" was anything but and a result of the very things I was talking about.

 

ETA - I am equally at fault because I actually believe what you posted and let it piss me off. At least you believe that you got it from what you percieved as a credible news outlet.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Duchess Jack

[bpwallace49]

What IS killing this country is how people are brain washed in to believeing only what they see/read on the MSM. Everything that isnt in the MSM is automatically classified as a conspiracy,

 

That is what Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin keep telling me, and I trust them implicity sooooooooooooooooooooooooo . . .

[Duchess Jack]

That is what Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin keep telling me, and I trust them implicity sooooooooooooooooooooooooo . . .

I don't want to get into the left or right of it, but this story doesn't seem to be a "main stream media" issue. This is one of those issues you'd expect Fox, CNN and such to be on top of. When I want to know what politician is eating babies, cheating on his taxes or shoving a crucifix up his ass, I'll check with the bloggers.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Duchess Jack

[Pope Flick]

Um, why don't you just read what he wrote?

 

 

I did and agree with bush's take: what 'backdoor piece of legislation' is he referring to if not the fictitious Dream Act passage? If it's some different piece of legislation (as potentially opposed to a policy memo) in a thread about non-existent legislation - that people are trying to get others to believe is true - then it would have behooved him to use 4 less words elsewhere and use that space to name what's he talking about.

 

Otherwise, he appears to be casually mentioning something that peepin clearly believes exist when we've already established it doesn't.

[Azazello1313]

I did and agree with bush's take: what 'backdoor piece of legislation' is he referring to if not the fictitious Dream Act passage? If it's some different piece of legislation (as potentially opposed to a policy memo) in a thread about non-existent legislation - that people are trying to get others to believe is true - then it would have behooved him to use 4 less words elsewhere and use that space to name what's he talking about.

 

neither mcboog nor anyone else referred to a "backdoor piece of legislation". do you use the singular 'quote marks' to delineate words a person didn't actually say?

[Pope Flick]

neither mcboog nor anyone else referred to a "backdoor piece of legislation". do you use the singular 'quote marks' to delineate words a person didn't actually say?

 

 

 

http://forums.thehuddle.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=3457891

 

 

Shut up with your internet police semantics schtick. You're as bad as anyone.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Pope Flick

[Ursa Majoris]

neither mcboog nor anyone else referred to a "backdoor piece of legislation".

Um.......well, yes he did.

[Azazello1313]

Um.......well, yes he did.

 

nope, he referred to "the 'Backdoor amnesty' that was just put into place". might be a merely semantic distinction, except for poopflick distinguishing between "legislation (as potentially opposed to a policy memo)" in telling him he was full of chit.

 

legislation requires at least two formal votes and a presidential signature....how can legislation even BE "backdoor"?

 

mcboog wasn't referring to the DREAM act, or any other legislation. he was (I assume) referring to the the policy from department higher-ups instructing agents and prosecutors to essentially ignore certain classes of deportation cases.

[yo mama]

nope, he referred to "the 'Backdoor amnesty' that was just put into place". might be a merely semantic distinction, except for poopflick distinguishing between "legislation (as potentially opposed to a policy memo)" in telling him he was full of chit.

 

legislation requires at least two formal votes and a presidential signature....how can legislation even BE "backdoor"?

Az and semantics? That's a first.

 

I would consider riders to legislation to be "backdoor" legislation. I suppose you could also put certain sodomy laws under that banner.

[Azazello1313]

I would consider riders to legislation to be "backdoor" legislation. I suppose you could also put certain sodomy laws under that banner.

 

I concede the points.

[Pope Flick]

nope, he referred to "the 'Backdoor amnesty' that was just put into place". might be a merely semantic distinction, except for poopflick distinguishing between "legislation (as potentially opposed to a policy memo)" in telling him he was full of chit.

 

legislation requires at least two formal votes and a presidential signature....how can legislation even BE "backdoor"?

 

mcboog wasn't referring to the DREAM act, or any other legislation. he was (I assume) referring to the the policy from department higher-ups instructing agents and prosecutors to essentially ignore certain classes of deportation cases.

 

 

Ok - in my defense, and using your quality of logic here, I didn't quotations, those were apostrophes. "

 

And it isn't a stretch for people to call something put in place via an executive order to be "backdoor" (those are actual quotation marks), which is what this thread was about to begin with.

[Azazello1313]

And it isn't a stretch for people to call something put in place via an executive order to be "backdoor" (those are actual quotation marks), which is what this thread was about to begin with.

 

well you know, just FYI, an executive order isn't "legislation" (or 'legislation') either.

[McBoog]

... What was he talking about?

 

Nothing you could comprehend.

[McBoog]

nope, he referred to "the 'Backdoor amnesty' that was just put into place". might be a merely semantic distinction, except for poopflick distinguishing between "legislation (as potentially opposed to a policy memo)" in telling him he was full of chit.

 

legislation requires at least two formal votes and a presidential signature....how can legislation even BE "backdoor"?

 

mcboog wasn't referring to the DREAM act, or any other legislation. he was (I assume) referring to the the policy from department higher-ups instructing agents and prosecutors to essentially ignore certain classes of deportation cases.

 

Yes.

 

WOW. Talk about putting words in my mouth! I was NOT talking about the Dream Act or Executive Order. It seemed like an appropriate place to comment on what I see going on in the real world. The closest I got in my two posts were:

 

1) "The reality, is that this administration is making it harder on us to even prosecute the criminal aliens that our "leaders" are saying we are focusing on."

2) "As long as the administration is controlling the policy and direction of the CIS..."

3) "Even adding manpower to the border right now will do nothing as long as the whole "prosecutorial discretion" thingy exists."

4) "...the guidelines for cases they will accept has gotten more difficult on us as well at the direction of the administration..."

5) "And frankly, besides the 'Backdoor amnesty" that was just put into place, it wasn't that much better under the previous administration either!"

 

Being directed by the Executive Branch, they are the ones that set policy and guidelines for all agencies. There are so many ways to justify doing or not doing, enforcing or not enforcing something. EPA has been one of the biggest puppets to Administartive direction since Nixon created it. I spoke not of legislation OR executive order, but I will fess up completely to Executive policy and direction.

 

John Morton takes his direction from the Secretary and the Secretary from the President. This direction manifested itself in what we call "The Memo - {open source}" (all of us in management have a copy on our desks to remind us of how futile our efforts are in this arena) and we all refer to it as "backdoor amnesty" since they kick them all out the backdoor anyway. No bond, no penalty, no deportation. If you look at the first line of the section on "Timing" at the bottom of page 5, it states, "While ICE may exercise prosecutorial discretion at any stage of an enforcement proceeding, it is generally preferable to exercise such discretion as early in the case or proceeding as possible in order to preserve government resources that would otherwise be expended in pursuing the enforcement proceeding. " This was an indirect green light/message for our attorneys to dump the general "illegally present in the US" cases ASAP.

 

I hope this does not dismissive, but I don't think there are many people, unless you are trained in and immersed deeply into this area of law, that can really see just how far (over?) reaching this policy memo is. It has been a back breaker to moral in the agency as we are basically saying, "if you are here, we aren't going to REALLY do anything about it".

 

As far as what we (HSI) are focusing on...

Morton used his policy memo to instruct ICE agents to limit their enforcement focus to:

- Aliens who pose a dangers to national security or a risk to public safety;

- Aliens who have recently violated immigration controls; and

- Fugitive aliens who are violating a final order of removal.

 

Other than the last one, they have raised the bar so high through "policy direction" that getting the USAO to accept any of these cases is difficult. They have pooched us in both the civil immigration courts AND the criminal courts. If we truly have the resources to remove about 400,000 aliens (those theoretically outlined above), then in my original post, I outline one way to make the rest leave or "self deport" (some of you are clearly not interested, so don't bother).

 

The sad reality is that in the MAJORITY of the cases, unless the alien is doing someting that any regular person with legal status would get prosecuted for, they are going to walk right out the back door.

[McBoog]

Not necessarily but it is interesting to note that, per year, I believe the Obama administration has deported more illegals than the Bush administration. Or, more correctly, during the periods of each administration as opposed to them personally. Don't know why that would be.

 

It is an interesting cause/effect cycle.

 

As more and more illegals were being caught and "officially deported", (meaning they went through immigration proceedings and were ordered deported by an IJ, not given a "voluntary return"), in the last decade, the number of people coming here because of ever worsening situations in their countries seemed to grow exponentially, which would also cause an increase in the number of deportations. That is one factor. Right now, the back log of people with final orders of removal that are "in the wind" from these masses is in the thousands. Tracking all them alone down is a next to an impossible task. But, when caught, are immediately deportable.

 

The other factor is that a HUGH number of these people would/do turn around and come right back. This is a criminal violation (8 USC 1326). At first, the USAO office would take these cases without question because they are self-proving.

 

AUSA: "Are you presently here in the country?"

 

Illegal Alien on the stand: "Yes" (He can't say "no", because he is physically present)

 

AUSA: "No further questions your honor."

 

These cases carry a two year sentence. Since it is a criminal proceeding, they can not be deported by a federal district judge. Once their time is served, they are then handed over to ERO and the Immigration courts will in turn order a second deportation. These cases started jamming the dockets so much that the Federal Judges complained to the AG. At the direction of the AG (current and past administrations) the AUSAs started only accepting cases with multiple prior deports or other aggravated felonies and have incrementally increased the parameters of what they will accept for prosecution. Because of this, the number of deportations at some point will again start to go down, unless the civil immigration courts start deporting more people, which because of "The Memo" is not going to happen for a while.

 

As mentioned in the previous post, since our guidelines have become much stricter (for example, the USAO here in the Southern District of Texas will only consider (b )(2) violators of the section right now), the people going before the IJs are immediately deportable. So the flood of those getting out of jail that came back after deportation are getting deported again and being counted in those totals. The lag time of aliens getting out of jail on the criminal violation and then re-deported by the Immigration Courts favors any claims by this administration that they are "deporting more than ever". This is a true statement, but not really because of anything they have done, but rather, serendipity has graced them in this instance.

 

All of this is why you don't see ICE rolling up to the Home Depot in a bus and hauling them all off. They will walk the next day (see previous post). Heck, there is a day labor site literally four blocks away from my office where they play soccer until someone rolls up to hire a few, but... "The Memo" . I feel like the whole situation mocks us as an agency and a nation.

[McBoog]

The other factor is that a HUGH number of these people would/do turn around and come right back. This is a criminal violation (8 USC 1326). At first, the USAO office would take these cases without question because they are self-proving.

 

AUSA: "Are you presently here in the country?"

 

Illegal Alien on the stand: "Yes" (He can't say "no", because he is physically present)

 

AUSA: "No further questions your honor."

 

I never have thought of this before, but in these cases, wouldn't their mere presence in the courtroom be a self-violation of their rights under the Fifth Amendment?

 

The catch 22 here is then wouldn't you have to waive your sixth Amendment rights to not violate your Fifth Amendment rights?

 

Screw it, I'm going to bed!