Griding Down America

[billay]

Just starting a conversation (which surprisingly has been relatively civil thus far, and hopefully will continue to be so).

 

**********************************

 

I think that the communist party has been in the USA for many decades.

 

I think that you think that, too.

 

I think they exist in an effort to affect change on society. In that regard, they are no different from a group of Presbyterians, the HS booster squad or the ACLU.

 

I'm not under the impression that Presbyterians, a HS booster squad, or even the ACLU has as its goal to affect the collapse of America.

 

I think that organizations that continue to exist for long periods of time are at least modestly successful in affecting the changes they seek.

 

I think you would agree with this comment.

 

I think that organizations attempting to affect change either make progress or they do not. If they do not, eventually they will cease to exist. As long as they make progress, they remain a going concern.

 

I think you would agree with this comment.

 

So, in sum, I believe that the communist party has had a presence, and continues to have a presence, only because they have had some level of success in affecting the change they intend to affect, otherwise, they would have ceased to exist at some point in the past.

 

I think you would agree with this comment.

 

So, I'm not sure why you may think that you and I disagree on anything in this thread?

 

I'm not under the impression that Presbyterians, a HS booster squad, or even the ACLU has as its goal to affect the collapse of America. Admittedly, I know little about the American Communist Party, but I suspect that Joseph Stalin is not central figure in its motivations or its orthodoxy. So I disagree with a number of your premises: I doubt that this video articulates an accurate description of American Communist Party goals and I also disagree that any organization which has not closed up shop must have achieved even a modicum of success of its stated goals. Often times, merely the ability sustain an organization's existence is sufficient reason for it to continue to operate.

[muck]

I'm not under the impression that Presbyterians, a HS booster squad, or even the ACLU has as its goal to affect the collapse of America. Admittedly, I know little about the American Communist Party, but I suspect that Joseph Stalin is not central figure in its motivations or its orthodoxy. So I disagree with a number of your premises: I doubt that this video articulates an accurate description of American Communist Party goals and I also disagree that any organization which has not closed up shop must have achieved even a modicum of success of its stated goals. Often times, merely the ability sustain an organization's existence is sufficient reason for it to continue to operate.

 

Based on certain comments made here and elsewhere, some believe that organized (and therefore public) religious activity is bad for America. So, while the Presbyterians (et.al.) don't state they want the downfall of the US, some think their activities are not accretive to our collective health and well-being.

 

Admittedly, I too know little about the ACP ... including whether or not they truly want the downfall of the country. Presumably, operating a communist worldview in the midst of a democratic process would create certain amounts of cognitive dissonance, and so, I think it is reasonable to assume that they would more easily ascribe to some sort of climatic overturn of the current order, rather than to run for office, get elected and pass laws that change the rules of the game (which laws would have to stand up to constitutional objections).

 

I have no reason to doubt that a portion of the video accurately portrays the goals held by the ACP at one time in the 1950s, but I have no reason to believe they have or have not changed their goals in the more recent past. I'm open to being educated.

 

Lastly, you make a good point about an organization that is simply able to sustain itself. Arguably, the people who were active in the 1950s are old or dead, and so for it to be active today would require new people to carry the mantle. I do think it's reasonable to assume that organizations which live require even modest amounts of time and money. I also think it's human nature to get disillusioned if some successes aren't realized along the way...

[SEC=UGA]

I'm not under the impression that Presbyterians, a HS booster squad, or even the ACLU has as its goal to affect the collapse of America. Admittedly, I know little about the American Communist Party, but I suspect that Joseph Stalin is not central figure in its motivations or its orthodoxy. So I disagree with a number of your premises: I doubt that this video articulates an accurate description of American Communist Party goals and I also disagree that any organization which has not closed up shop must have achieved even a modicum of success of its stated goals. Often times, merely the ability sustain an organization's existence is sufficient reason for it to continue to operate.

 

The video does lay out many of the goals of CPUSA and articulates them pretty accurately. Some of this is obvious in a recent article posted to the CPUSA web site:

Work would engage our skills and bring personal satisfaction. Leisure time would be expanded and fulfilling. Our skies, oceans, lakes, rivers and streams would be blue and pollution free. Our neighborhoods would become places of rest, culture, green space. Communal institutions, like cafeterias serving healthy and delicious food, and recreation centers would become routine features of life. The whole panoply of oppressions that damage our people and nation would be on the wane. Human sexuality and sexual orientation would be enjoyed and celebrated. Culture in all its forms would be the inherited right of every person.

 

The prisons would be emptied and the borders demilitarized and opened. Women would be regularly receiving Nobel prizes in the sciences. The Pentagon would be padlocked and war would be studied no more. And, finally, the full development of each would be the condition for the full development of all.

 

They subscribe to Marxist theory and regard Engel and Lenin very highly (Stalin does not seem to be as prevalent.)

 

You should really check out their web page, much of what they say blends very well with "Progressive" ideology.

 

They don't want to affect the collapse of America, their goal is to alter the American economy and culture in a manner that most reflects their views. They know that the US is not teetering on the edge so they must affect change over time and are willing to do so.

 

They have been successful in many of their proposed goals, they boast of it, and if you look at their agenda, they have facilitated the accomplishment of these goals (or so they claim.)

 

In the US, the movement to the left in political ideology is not referred to as Communist ideology or socialism in the mainstream, that would be very unpopular.

[SEC=UGA]

Based on certain comments made here and elsewhere, some believe that organized (and therefore public) religious activity is bad for America. So, while the Presbyterians (et.al.) don't state they want the downfall of the US, some think their activities are not accretive to our collective health and well-being.

 

Admittedly, I too know little about the ACP ... including whether or not they truly want the downfall of the country. Presumably, operating a communist worldview in the midst of a democratic process would create certain amounts of cognitive dissonance, and so, I think it is reasonable to assume that they would more easily ascribe to some sort of climatic overturn of the current order, rather than to run for office, get elected and pass laws that change the rules of the game (which laws would have to stand up to constitutional objections).

 

I have no reason to doubt that a portion of the video accurately portrays the goals held by the ACP at one time in the 1950s, but I have no reason to believe they have or have not changed their goals in the more recent past. I'm open to being educated.

 

Lastly, you make a good point about an organization that is simply able to sustain itself. Arguably, the people who were active in the 1950s are old or dead, and so for it to be active today would require new people to carry the mantle. I do think it's reasonable to assume that organizations which live require even modest amounts of time and money. I also think it's human nature to get disillusioned if some successes aren't realized along the way...

 

CPUSA wants to expand the democratic process. They view democracy, one man, one vote, as the best way to affect their change. Basically they view it in this manner, the prolitariate outnumbers the bourgeoise, if we expand the democratic process we have the numbers on our side. They just have to figure out the main "trigger" and it seems to be that they are going to push the class warfare/economic inequality angle (something incidentally that has been all the rage in the media over the past decade.)

 

The CPUSA openly states, as well, that classical methods to affect change, or even classical communism, may not work here. They need to look at it as an organism that can evolve to adapt itself in the interim to a particular culture and then slowly modify itself into the more pure form that Marx and Engles profess.

[westvirginia]

Fabian Society - just like SEC described the CPUSA, but in England.

[bushwacked]

It won't be long now.

[SEC=UGA]

Article outlingin their agenda for their annual conference. Anything look familiar?

 

The Communist Party USA is making plans for its 29th National Convention to be held the weekend of May 21-23 at its national headquarters in New York City.

 

The convention takes place at what has the potential to be a turning point in the history of our nation. Whether or not that turning point is reached, and the hopes of the 2008 elections are fulfilled, will depend on the building of a broad progressive labor-led democratic movement able to defeat Republican obstructionism and the far-right forces of reaction.

 

Thus this cannot be an ordinary convention. The four months between now and the convention will see a flurry of activity by the party involving both discussion and action whose goal is to help build such a movement.

 

New technology including use of video and teleconferences will make it easier to have a very inclusive convention discussion. Not just the written word but the spoken word will be part of our pre-convention discussion, making it easier for all members and friends to participate.

The kickoff took place with a splash last Thursday, January 21, with a nationwide live streaming web presentation by the party's national chair, Sam Webb, of our main convention discussion document, "No easy road to the future - but we'll get there," followed by a lively question and answer session. The web broadcast is available at cpusa.org.

 

The main discussion document is a call to build a far-reaching, labor-led coalition for jobs, peace and equality, to win progressive reforms from health care to immigrant rights.

 

In particular it is a call to action on the economic crisis. Our pre-convention period is occurring during the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression and the party feels its documents and discussions must be turned into action.

 

Working to build the national the Jobs 4 America Now campaign being organized by labor, civil rights and democratic organizations is seen as a priority.

 

The document is also a call to expand the Communist Party and Young Communist League, organizations committed to building the widest possible unity for democratic and socialist change.

 

The next Communist Party USA live web presentation will be in February. It will feature the party's vice-chair, Jarvis Tyner, on African American equality. In March, Scott Marshal, the party's Labor Commission chair, will lead a discussion on the fight for jobs. The web events are open to all who wish to participate. Membership in the Communist Party is not a requirement.

 

Other discussions and documents are being prepared, such as a recent submission by our commission on religion. Discussions are also being organized throughout the country. For more information, contact cpusa@cpusa.org

 

In addition to workshops and plenary sessions on a range of topics, the May convention will review the party's work and policy and elect new leadership.

 

The convention will be an exciting affair with an evening cultural celebration and rally, greetings from elected officials, labor and other mass leaders and a multimedia celebration of the 90th anniversary of the founding of the Communist Party.

 

Over 200 delegates and guests from Alaska to Maine and from Texas to North Dakota are expected.

 

Discussion documents are available on the party's web site. A printed booklet with Spanish translation will be ready by February.

[Ursa Majoris]

I have to ask........."so what"? There are movements out there for literally everything, from the CPUSA to the birthers to the 9/11 conspiracy fiends through the Holocaust deniers through the Flat Earthers through, well, you name it. All attempting to proselytize their agendas. Again, so what? Everyone has an agenda and so long as the agenda is conducted within the rule of law, isn't that the whole point of having a Constitution and being the USA in the first place?

[bpwallace49]

I think the KKK still has an agenda too . . . it doesnt mean they actually will succeed or that you can tie it to a political party.

[SEC=UGA]

I think the KKK still has an agenda too . . . it doesnt mean they actually will succeed or that you can tie it to a political party.

 

Only since they have recently switched from the Democrat to the Republican party...

 

Many people view the Republican party as having an entrenched christian wing tto it, there is no denying that. Further, if you look at the tenets of the core right beliefs you will see many policy issues that line up with evangelicals, anti-abortion, creationism, etc... The evangelicals are ushing this and are infiltrating the Republican party. This is a very big reason why I have grown weary of the Republican party.

 

Similarly, if you look at the ideology of the Democrat party you will see that they share many of the same ideals as the CPUSA. The CPUSA has infiltrated the left in this country and is slowly trying to push their ideology.

 

Both of these groups and ideologies are alive and well. To try and deny that either of them have had influence in the past or will continue to have influence on policy in the future is naive.

[bpwallace49]

Only since they have recently switched from the Democrat to the Republican party...

 

Many people view the Republican party as having an entrenched christian wing tto it, there is no denying that. Further, if you look at the tenets of the core right beliefs you will see many policy issues that line up with evangelicals, anti-abortion, creationism, etc... The evangelicals are ushing this and are infiltrating the Republican party. This is a very big reason why I have grown weary of the Republican party.

 

Similarly, if you look at the ideology of the Democrat party you will see that they share many of the same ideals as the CPUSA. The CPUSA has infiltrated the left in this country and is slowly trying to push their ideology.

Both of these groups and ideologies are alive and well. To try and deny that either of them have had influence in the past or will continue to have influence on policy in the future is naive.

 

I think you are overstating their influence. I am sure you think I am understating their influence.

[SEC=UGA]

I have to ask........."so what"? There are movements out there for literally everything, from the CPUSA to the birthers to the 9/11 conspiracy fiends through the Holocaust deniers through the Flat Earthers through, well, you name it. All attempting to proselytize their agendas. Again, so what? Everyone has an agenda and so long as the agenda is conducted within the rule of law, isn't that the whole point of having a Constitution and being the USA in the first place?

 

"So what" is a very valid question, unless you adamantly disagree witht he ideology being expressed.

 

I initially got into this discussion to state that this is a very interesting topic and that the CPUSA has had some sway over US policy over the past 90+ years.

 

I'm no where near as worried that we will surrender to socialism in the near future as are many on the right. However, I do notice the impact of their ideology on legislation and US policy and I don't like it.

 

Are you saying I shouldn't care about the influence the communists have on the Dems and I should also not care about theinfluence evangelicals have on the Repubs?

[billay]

There's plenty of fear to go around Edited August 23, 2011 by billay

[Ursa Majoris]

"So what" is a very valid question, unless you adamantly disagree witht he ideology being expressed.

 

I initially got into this discussion to state that this is a very interesting topic and that the CPUSA has had some sway over US policy over the past 90+ years.

 

I'm no where near as worried that we will surrender to socialism in the near future as are many on the right. However, I do notice the impact of their ideology on legislation and US policy and I don't like it.

 

Are you saying I shouldn't care about the influence the communists have on the Dems and I should also not care about theinfluence evangelicals have on the Repubs?

There are millions of things that could be worried about but the creeping influence of the CPUSA isn't going to be one of mine. If it's one of yours, more power to you. I guess everyone needs a boogeyman.

[Square]

I have to ask........."so what"? There are movements out there for literally everything, from the CPUSA to the birthers to the 9/11 conspiracy fiends through the Holocaust deniers through the Flat Earthers through, well, you name it. All attempting to proselytize their agendas. Again, so what? Everyone has an agenda and so long as the agenda is conducted within the rule of law, isn't that the whole point of having a Constitution and being the USA in the first place?

I'll take a swing at why this is important....

 

Just to pick a random topic, I'll use single payer healthcare. Now, I can make a pretty sound debate for single payer healthcare based on fiscal reasoning and religious values. But since the American memory of socialism is bad (typically Russia type socialism) some politicians get to yell "socialism!" at everything they don't want and win political points with their base despite the possible aligning of anything the base actually represents (or at least claim they do) that may actually align with a given idea (like single payer healthcare). So being able to label an idea as socialist, obviously means that if you agree with an idea (even one) that you are a socialist and that socialism has infiltrated the political, school, and economic system. Those people are evil and want to turn the US into the USSR. I mean when you really think about it, I don't know of many democracies that are politically to the right of America. Apparently those commies are more influential than I thought.

 

Here is a brief history of socialist plots to end the American way of life.

[westvirginia]

I'll take a swing at why this is important....

 

Just to pick a random topic, I'll use single payer healthcare. Now, I can make a pretty sound debate for single payer healthcare based on fiscal reasoning and religious values. But since the American memory of socialism is bad (typically Russia type socialism) some politicians get to yell "socialism!" at everything they don't want and win political points with their base despite the possible aligning of anything the base actually represents (or at least claim they do) that may actually align with a given idea (like single payer healthcare). So being able to label an idea as socialist, obviously means that if you agree with an idea (even one) that you are a socialist and that socialism has infiltrated the political, school, and economic system. Those people are evil and want to turn the US into the USSR. I mean when you really think about it, I don't know of many democracies that are politically to the right of America. Apparently those commies are more influential than I thought.

 

Here is a brief history of socialist plots to end the American way of life.

 

Now you're just being an a-hole. We could just re-post that whole thing but change from single-payer HC to entitlement reform, and then how politicians yell "starving old folks and chillens!" because their memories of the great depression were bad. Gee, I'm sure there is a boogeyman on one side for every boogeyman on the other side.

[Chavez]

Now you're just being an a-hole. We could just re-post that whole thing but change from single-payer HC to entitlement reform, and then how politicians yell "starving old folks and chillens!" because their memories of the great depression were bad. Gee, I'm sure there is a boogeyman on one side for every boogeyman on the other side.

 

 

But his conclusion is that "socialism" has ALWAYS been the boogeyman of American politics. And I think he's correct - since the Bolsheviks took power, it's been a way to dismiss something without really engaging in any further debate.

[muck]

But his conclusion is that "socialism" has ALWAYS been the boogeyman of American politics. And I think he's correct - since the Bolsheviks took power, it's been a way to dismiss something without really engaging in any further debate.

 

Is this sorta like when the little boy cried "wolf" and eventually nobody believed him when the wolf actually showed up?

[WaterMan]

But his conclusion is that "socialism" has ALWAYS been the boogeyman of American politics. And I think he's correct - since the Bolsheviks took power, it's been a way to dismiss something without really engaging in any further debate.

 

Kinda like evolution or the Big Bang?

[Chavez]

Is this sorta like when the little boy cried "wolf" and eventually nobody believed him when the wolf actually showed up?

 

 

Not so much, because there were cases of actual wolves mixed in with the hysteria.

[rbmcdonald]

This makes me think of the old genre where you have these deep sleeper agents for the USSR that are living normal lives in the US until they get some secret code and then they wake up and go off and do whatever they were programmed to do. Wouldn't it be funny if the codes were sent out accidently, and all these people wake up and are suppose to carry out these secret missions for the USSR, which does not exist anymore?

[muck]

This makes me think of the old genre where you have these deep sleeper agents for the USSR that are living normal lives in the US until they get some secret code and then they wake up and go off and do whatever they were programmed to do. Wouldn't it be funny if the codes were sent out accidently, and all these people wake up and are suppose to carry out these secret missions for the USSR, which does not exist anymore?

 

 

[rbmcdonald]

 

 

The Huddle needs to get togethor and Flash Mob something