gilthorp Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 The biggest intelligence failure our country has ever seen...don't blame Bush, don't blame Republicans...don't blame Democrats. The true picture is in the profits that private contractors to the government are raking in. It's very sad that all these men and women lost their lives, and sadder still that the wounded and returning vets will almost be turned a blind eye to by the very government that sent them over there...but these big companies will continue to turn hugh profits on their efforts for decades to come. Mission F'n Accomplished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Shoot, bring 'em all home from all the bases around the world. I'm pretty sure the Europeans can take care of themselves nowadays and let's face it, we aren't fighting the Cold War anymore and have to be the big kid on the block. I agree regarding Europe. I think our troops are still needed in Korea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 4487 dead and 32226 wounded ...and those are only the numbers for UNITED STATES armed forces. Toll for the Iraqis is estimated at over 100,000. But nobody cares about them, because they're brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I'm pretty sure the Europeans can take care of themselves nowadays LOL That's funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 A bitter but factual article from a vet. He makes a ton of excellent points. Is it possible to account for what we've lost and learned over the last nine years in Iraq? Personally, I sacrificed four years in support of the war effort -- one deployed as an army engineer diver. As with so many of my peers, that's the easiest piece to quantify. There remain countless inner struggles that lurk in dark corners of my psyche. They are difficult to measure or even explain. What does it mean to have been a part of this war? To have been a part of: 4,500 American deaths; 33,000 Americans wounded; estimates as high as 600,000 Iraqi deaths; more than $1 trillion in taxpayer money spent; $9 billion lost or unaccounted for; huge corporate profiteering; a prisoner-abuse scandal; a torture record worthy of the Hague; a hand in the financial crisis, and runaway unemployment when we get home. I've learned that we are easily duped and that we quickly forget. Saddam has WMDs. No, we are exporting democracy. No, we are protecting human rights, and by the way, their oil will pay for it all. I've learned that 9/11 was used against us. We gladly handed over our civil liberties in the name of security. And recently our Congress quietly reapproved the unconstitutional Patriot Act. Do you recall the deafening drumbeat of the war machine? Displaying a flag meant you were a good citizen, and any dissent about going to war meant you were unpatriotic. I've learned that many communities are far too insulated from war's hardship, while others are consumed by it. Many of those I served with in the Army couldn't get another job. A few were 9/11 patriots, and others were selfless warriors. But wouldn't a two-year mandatory service or a perpetual draft allocate our national sacrifice better? Maybe then coverage moves to the front page. I've learned that war is big business. Some $206 billion was paid to government contractors during the two wars. A new congressional study conservatively estimates that $31 billion to $60 billion of that can be attributed to waste. The ever-opportunistic KBR (Haliburton), Blackwater and Dyncorp were some of the biggest winners of this war, not to mention the manufacturers of traditional weapon systems. A staggeringly high number of Pentagon war contracts are noncompete or sole-source. These no-bid contracts are doled out to whomever has the inside tract. You can imagine the culture that such arrangements create. Not only are these transactions not market-driven, the contractors take zero risk with cost-plus contracts that don't incentivize quality deliverables. KBR was sued by the mother of an Army Green Beret recently. Her son was one of 18 soldiers who died of electrocution due to shoddy wiring in Iraq. KBR lawyers are seeking protection under local law, because they say they did meet Iraqi standards. Many people are calling these last 10 years "the Lost Decade." I agree, because we've lost a lot. We lost the goodwill of the world. We lost so many young people. We are losing even more, with more than 30 percent of servicemen dealing with various psychological issues. As President Dwight Eisenhower warned us, the military-industrial complex is real. After my experience in the military, I refuse to work for another large organization again, much less a corporation. Iraq was the last time. There is no wonder why so many veterans like myself are supportive of the Occupy Wall Street movement. We understand the power structure of the status quo; we know whose best interest our foreign policy is designed to protect, and we know who benefits from our sacrifices. I've learned that we can't account for all that we've lost and learned, because the numbers cannot tell us the whole story. So if 9 years, $1 trillion and 4,500 American lives seems expensive, now imagine what real problems we could have solved with that investment. If our so-called leaders ever say that a certain initiative isn't economically or politically feasible, it's because big business doesn't benefit from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 The biggest intelligence failure our country has ever seen...don't blame Bush, don't blame Republicans...don't blame Democrats. The true picture is in the profits that private contractors to the government are raking in. It's very sad that all these men and women lost their lives, and sadder still that the wounded and returning vets will almost be turned a blind eye to by the very government that sent them over there...but these big companies will continue to turn hugh profits on their efforts for decades to come. Mission F'n Accomplished. I agree in large part but i personally wont let Bush , Cheney and alot of associated dirt bags off the hook for the war ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 A bitter but factual article from a vet. He makes a ton of excellent points. There is no wonder why so many veterans like myself are supportive of the Occupy Wall Street movement. We understand the power structure of the status quo; we know whose best interest our foreign policy is designed to protect, and we know who benefits from our sacrifices. Too bad our brave soldiers who make such a large sacrifice come home to find themselves denigrated by the right for their beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilthorp Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I agree in large part but i personally wont let Bush , Cheney and alot of associated dirt bags off the hook for the war ... In retrospect, I view Bush as a lackey for the Hawks who covertly degraded this great country. I don't know how he sleeps at night, but it's not all on him, but if guilt by association is the theme, ok. In the same respect, I view Cheney as a figurehead for the massive corporate greed movement that the average American is blind to. Even with that, the set up was not something that could be controlled by government, and today, still can't be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 In retrospect, I view Bush as a lackey for the Hawks who covertly degraded this great country. I don't know how he sleeps at night, but it's not all on him, but if guilt by association is the theme, ok. In the same respect, I view Cheney as a figurehead for the massive corporate greed movement that the average American is blind to. Even with that, the set up was not something that could be controlled by government, and today, still can't be. The decision in Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific has turned out to be the biggest threat to democracy ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Too bad our brave soldiers who make such a large sacrifice come home to find themselves denigrated by the right for their beliefs. Congrats you've gone from general stupidity to outright gibberish. Not that that's exactly surprising. A bitter but factual article from a vet. He makes a ton of excellent points. Yes, very objective with tons of "excellent points." lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Senator John Edwards (Democrat, North Carolina) Speech at the Center for Strategic and International Studies October 7, 2002 Well that settles it, I'm no longer a fan of John Edwards. And to think, he'd been pretty much batting 1.000 in my book up til now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Too bad our brave soldiers who make such a large sacrifice come home to find themselves denigrated by the right for their beliefs. Oprah you for saying that. Seriously. Oprah you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyman Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Oprah you for saying that. Seriously. Oprah you. Amazing he is still allowed to post. I have been banned for much less offenses. Sickening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) Guys, guys, guys... Bushy's comment really isn't as bad as you're making it out to be... Further, he was only making said comment to elicit the exact response that you guys are giving. Chill out. Edited December 16, 2011 by SEC=UGA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyman Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Guys, guys, guys... Bushy's comment really isn't as bad as you're making it out to be... Further, he was only making said comment to illicit the exact response that you guys are giving. Chill out. Oh OK...I get it. I think I will try that from now on. As soon as I start to get piled on, then I will say I was just doing that to get a response. Total BS. It is who he is and what he believes. Look at the Athenae he posts regularly, that is who he is. He deserves everything he gets on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) Yeah shame on me for wasting the keystrokes. Actually paying attention to a bw post, what was I thinking. The topic I guess, hits home. Edited December 16, 2011 by BeeR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Well that settles it, I'm no longer a fan of John Edwards. And to think, he'd been pretty much batting 1.000 in my book up til now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Guys, guys, guys... Bushy's comment really isn't as bad as you're making it out to be... Further, he was only making said comment to illicit the exact response that you guys are giving. Chill out. BeeR's sensibilities are very touchy. I thought Ursa's post was a well written article that did make good points. This is hard to ignore: I've learned that we are easily duped and that we quickly forget. Saddam has WMDs. No, we are exporting democracy. No, we are protecting human rights, and by the way, their oil will pay for it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I thought Ursa's post was a well written article that did make good points. This is hard to ignore: Agreed . . . Bushies post just serves as an excuse for righteous indignation for those that have ardently supported the war and deflect the content of the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 The Iraq war is a very unfortunate turn of events. I remember just prior to the outset of the war going with a friend of mine to DC while she was taking the Foreign Service exam/interview. At the end of the day we were at a bar with a number of the people who had participated in the interviews, people were stridently for or against said action, it was a really interesting night. I was talking to a a guy about it being a mistake for us to take action: Saddam was contained, he could not threaten the area as he had in the early 90's... He was not part of 9/11 and a preemptive strike could be very destabilizing to the region. However, at the time, Iraq was violating UN sanctions, almost EVERY intelligence agency in the world thought he has WMD and he was ratcheting up the vitriolic rhetoric. You can not deny that both Republicans and Democrats were broadly supporting this action. There were few exceptions on both sides of the aisle who were not supportive of the war. In large part because intelligence collected by the Clinton admin supported the claims of the Bush admin. But back to the point, should we have gone into Iraq, probably not. But, once we are there, we should support the actions of our troops. In many cases they did not get this from the far left... people protesting ROTC on college campuses, people protesting in front of recruiting centers, people calling our troops and Commander in Chief murderers. Call it what you will, but once we are in a war, we need to be IN A WAR. All politics need to be put aside as it only serves to undermine and endanger our soldiers as politicians begin to use the war and subsequently the soldiers as political tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 The Iraq war is a very unfortunate turn of events. I remember just prior to the outset of the war going with a friend of mine to DC while she was taking the Foreign Service exam/interview. At the end of the day we were at a bar with a number of the people who had participated in the interviews, people were stridently for or against said action, it was a really interesting night. I was talking to a a guy about it being a mistake for us to take action: Saddam was contained, he could not threaten the area as he had in the early 90's... He was not part of 9/11 and a preemptive strike could be very destabilizing to the region. However, at the time, Iraq was violating UN sanctions, almost EVERY intelligence agency in the world thought he has WMD and he was ratcheting up the vitriolic rhetoric. You can not deny that both Republicans and Democrats were broadly supporting this action. There were few exceptions on both sides of the aisle who were not supportive of the war. In large part because intelligence collected by the Clinton admin supported the claims of the Bush admin. But back to the point, should we have gone into Iraq, probably not. But, once we are there, we should support the actions of our troops. In many cases they did not get this from the far left... people protesting ROTC on college campuses, people protesting in front of recruiting centers, people calling our troops and Commander in Chief murderers. Call it what you will, but once we are in a war, we need to be IN A WAR. All politics need to be put aside as it only serves to undermine and endanger our soldiers as politicians begin to use the war and subsequently the soldiers as political tools. Using that exact logic, then why havent we invaded North Korea? Havent they violated UN sanctions? Dont they have WMDs? And havent they had WMDs longer than Iraq has? Selective application of faulty logic . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Using that exact logic, then why havent we invaded North Korea? Havent they violated UN sanctions? Dont they have WMDs? And havent they had WMDs longer than Iraq has? Selective application of faulty logic . . . China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 China. So North Korea is contained? Sounds just like Iraq . . C'mon man at least be consistent in your application of faulty policy. : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 The Iraq war is a very unfortunate turn of events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 So North Korea is contained? Sounds just like Iraq . . C'mon man at least be consistent in your application of faulty policy. : BP, China is the answer to your question as to why we have not invaded N. Korea. Further, S. Korea is another reason why we have not invaded N. Korea. Iraq and N. Korea involve so many divergent circumstances that one could author a 2,000 page text explaining why we would invade one and not the other. Also, there is not a broad congressional consensus to invade N. Korea. There is no fault in any of the logic behind what I stated, simply misunderstandings from those who are looking to start an argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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