Grogansghost Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 With the bounty revelations, does anyone think we'll see offenses react more to borderline plays against QBs next year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 With the bounty revelations, does anyone think we'll see offenses react more to borderline plays against QBs next year? For some it might be possible. For others, not possible. I can think of at least one team where anytime someone thinks about their Q.B. both he and his entire line turn to the Refs begging for flags. I definitely think it should be an instant penalty on any Saint Q.B., or coach, who asks for a flag for hits on their players for the next few years. That is not to say that the refs should not call the game fair and square, it is just to say they have lost their bitching rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Pimp Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I definitely think it should be an instant penalty on any Saint Q.B., or coach, who asks for a flag for hits on their players for the next few years. That is not to say that the refs should not call the game fair and square, it is just to say they have lost their bitching rights. Maybe that's why Brees couldn't come to an agreement on a long term deal. He knows he's going to get killed this year. Maybe Peyton should go back home so to speak and take over for the Saints and Brees can move on to Miami after they let him get away the last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) I definitely think it should be an instant penalty on any Saint Q.B., or coach, who asks for a flag for hits on their players for the next few years. That is not to say that the refs should not call the game fair and square, it is just to say they have lost their bitching rights. At the risk of sounding pathetic & desperate... Do you really think it would be justified for referees to allow cheap shots on the Saints offense and that the Saints should just sit back and take it? And you all are saying my judgement is clouded. Edited March 8, 2012 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grogansghost Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 I think Ditkaless is talking more about the campaigning for calls that aren't really deserved that we'll sometimes see coaches do, and not that Saints need to accept that it's now open season on them. But maybe I'm misreading his tone. Regardless, my take is that the Saints will get punished by the league office and that's where it should end.Saints games in general will be called tighter on both sides to prevent any sort of tit-for-tat situation. I was thinking less about how teams will react to only the Saints next year - but more if there'll be any shift in how offenses react to defenses in general. If a defense seems to be pushing the line or going past it, will offenses be more likely to find ways to retaliate, send a message back, rather than rely solely on the refs. In a game where there are late hits on the QB are we more likely to see more cut-blocks from the offense after? For the most part, current defensive players seemed to think the bounties were no big deal - they don't change how the game is played - but I bet those same players would be upset if the Texans O-line had a pool for cart-offs from the best cut block. I'm just thinking, as an offensive player, I'd be less inclined to give my colleagues on the defensive side any benefit of the doubt right now. To me, at least, the bounties turn the potential injury to the offensive player into a joke. Basically, this guy's career is worth $100 or whatever gets thrown into the pot. There's a lack of respect towards that other player as a professional. Any sort of gentleman's agreements that are supposed to exist about how the game is played would seem to be off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMD Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I agree bounties are wrong and trying to injure a player for the sake of knocking him out of the game should be a suspension or even possibly a ban from the sport. That all said, nothing much went on for the Saints that year that doesn't go on in most every team though perhaps it is not made a tinge more official as it was in New Orleans apparently. No defensive player is going to act any differently for the want of winning $100 or $1000. Chump change. While the offense has their touchdowns and field goals and such that wins games, all defenses have to measure by are tackles, interceptions, fumble recoveries, etc. Hitting the opponent as hard as you can is hardly new. Remember the "All Jacked Up" segment that ESPN had for a while? They wisely discontinued it but that was all about what fans like to see and defenders like to do. Watch advertisements for hockey. You would think that the sport is all about body checks into the glass with the goal just a minor part of the game. What does the news show - all the goals in the game or the one fight? Football is a violent game and has always been. The fans like to see it and the defensive players like to do it - that is why they are on the field. To stop the opponent. Don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating head hunting, bounties or knocking players out of the game. By no means. The NFL has taken measures to help reduce some problem areas like the Roy Williams/horse collar tackle. That is appropriate and I think everyone wants to see games go off without any injuries to the extent possible. But until the fundamentals of the game change, defenders are going to get their respect and success from hitting hard and taking the other players to the grass. A defensive lineman almost never scores a touchdown. He spends maybe 50 plays a game sumo wrestling with one or more blockers. And if he gets the chance to unload on a QB - he's going to take it. They need to ensure that there are no illegal tackles or anything excessive in the tackle. Maybe they need more suspensions and an outright banning to get it across but every single rookie defender coming in wants nothing more than to make the monster tackle that makes the highlight reel. I don't think it is an overt lack of respect for their opponent, they are just playing a different game than the opposing offense with a different agenda. They all play knowing the risks and ask anyone who played Hines Ward about getting creamed on a block. Defenders are not the only ones laying down pain. They don't seem to call many penalties on pancake blocks, especially on kickoffs when they can be full speed collisions. I wish they would not excessively injure each other - injuries are the most unattractive part of the game. But any sense of shock that they had a pool on various actions including knocking a player out of the game is just naive. That is what all defenses try to do. How many quarterbacks have the Giants knocked out of the game if not the entire season? A lot. Did they hit them harder than they needed to? Of course. Does every defense wish they had the record of the Giants for injuring QBs? Sure. Helps win games. This casts a negative spotlight on the sport, especially picked up now when nothing besides Peyton Manning is newsworthy. So all the sports guys get to hype this up like the Saints were stocked with the league's worst criminals who would trying to end someone's career for $100. And the NFL will react to this as they should and must. The NFL has been better, IMO, about trying to penalize flagrant hits almost to the point of excess the last couple of seasons. The league is serious about it as they must be and it is in everyone's interest to allow players to not have careers cut short unnecessarily. But any surprise this happens or thinking that the Saints are that much different than the other teams just is hard for me to buy. Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds? Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money] Croupier: Your winnings, sir. Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much. [aloud] Captain Renault: Everybody out at once! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I agree with most of that, DMD, but I do think the saints are unique here in a couple important respects: 1) what took place in their 2009 playoff run with the late, cheap, and borderline hits was a bit unusual, even for NFL playoff football (many, many people said so even at the time). knowing there were hugh bounties ($10K?) on favre and others provides some pretty damning context for those games in hindsight. when favre was limping off the field, mics apparently picked up a saints player yelling "pay me my money!" whatever other teams do, however the league tries to market big hits...some of the saints actions on record take it a lot further than the norm IMO. 2) the most important fact of all is that the saints were specifically warned about this, told the league it wouldn't be a problem, and now this. the league tried dealing with this problem the nice way, and basically got a nice "yeah whatever, eff you" from the saints. that more than anything else is why they are going to get reamed by the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 At the risk of sounding pathetic & desperate... Do you really think it would be justified for referees to allow cheap shots on the Saints offense and that the Saints should just sit back and take it? And you all are saying my judgement is clouded. Is that what you took from my post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinity Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I agree with most of that, DMD, but I do think the saints are unique here in a couple important respects: 1) what took place in their 2009 playoff run with the late, cheap, and borderline hits was a bit unusual, even for NFL playoff football (many, many people said so even at the time). knowing there were hugh bounties ($10K?) on favre and others provides some pretty damning context for those games in hindsight. when favre was limping off the field, mics apparently picked up a saints player yelling "pay me my money!" whatever other teams do, however the league tries to market big hits...some of the saints actions on record take it a lot further than the norm IMO. 2) the most important fact of all is that the saints were specifically warned about this, told the league it wouldn't be a problem, and now this. the league tried dealing with this problem the nice way, and basically got a nice "yeah whatever, eff you" from the saints. that more than anything else is why they are going to get reamed by the league. Could just be talking about his contract. Regardless, I agree with DMD. This is going on in probably most NFL locker rooms, hell probably even college. But more importantly, I agree that the defense is playing a different game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbimm Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I agree bounties are wrong and trying to injure a player for the sake of knocking him out of the game should be a suspension or even possibly a ban from the sport. That all said, nothing much went on for the Saints that year that doesn't go on in most every team though perhaps it is not made a tinge more official as it was in New Orleans apparently. No defensive player is going to act any differently for the want of winning $100 or $1000. Chump change. While the offense has their touchdowns and field goals and such that wins games, all defenses have to measure by are tackles, interceptions, fumble recoveries, etc. Hitting the opponent as hard as you can is hardly new. Remember the "All Jacked Up" segment that ESPN had for a while? They wisely discontinued it but that was all about what fans like to see and defenders like to do. Watch advertisements for hockey. You would think that the sport is all about body checks into the glass with the goal just a minor part of the game. What does the news show - all the goals in the game or the one fight? Football is a violent game and has always been. The fans like to see it and the defensive players like to do it - that is why they are on the field. To stop the opponent. Don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating head hunting, bounties or knocking players out of the game. By no means. The NFL has taken measures to help reduce some problem areas like the Roy Williams/horse collar tackle. That is appropriate and I think everyone wants to see games go off without any injuries to the extent possible. But until the fundamentals of the game change, defenders are going to get their respect and success from hitting hard and taking the other players to the grass. A defensive lineman almost never scores a touchdown. He spends maybe 50 plays a game sumo wrestling with one or more blockers. And if he gets the chance to unload on a QB - he's going to take it. They need to ensure that there are no illegal tackles or anything excessive in the tackle. Maybe they need more suspensions and an outright banning to get it across but every single rookie defender coming in wants nothing more than to make the monster tackle that makes the highlight reel. I don't think it is an overt lack of respect for their opponent, they are just playing a different game than the opposing offense with a different agenda. They all play knowing the risks and ask anyone who played Hines Ward about getting creamed on a block. Defenders are not the only ones laying down pain. They don't seem to call many penalties on pancake blocks, especially on kickoffs when they can be full speed collisions. I wish they would not excessively injure each other - injuries are the most unattractive part of the game. But any sense of shock that they had a pool on various actions including knocking a player out of the game is just naive. That is what all defenses try to do. How many quarterbacks have the Giants knocked out of the game if not the entire season? A lot. Did they hit them harder than they needed to? Of course. Does every defense wish they had the record of the Giants for injuring QBs? Sure. Helps win games. This casts a negative spotlight on the sport, especially picked up now when nothing besides Peyton Manning is newsworthy. So all the sports guys get to hype this up like the Saints were stocked with the league's worst criminals who would trying to end someone's career for $100. And the NFL will react to this as they should and must. The NFL has been better, IMO, about trying to penalize flagrant hits almost to the point of excess the last couple of seasons. The league is serious about it as they must be and it is in everyone's interest to allow players to not have careers cut short unnecessarily. But any surprise this happens or thinking that the Saints are that much different than the other teams just is hard for me to buy. A few things stand out to me here. 1. Your not a homer for the Saints so will not be thrashed for this post as rajn and I were. 2. This is exactly what I have been saying since the other thread started with the exception of my pointing out the need for heavy doses of punishment against the Saints a little more. 3. There are reasons you are a writer and I am not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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