Rebrown Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 Anyone thinking the new kickoff rules change who you start at D/St? I'm seeing 20-25 yards per return, that 2.5-3 pts. Defenses that give up 4 to 5 scores per game wouls get a good 10-15 return yard points, with numerous opportunities for bigger returns. Especially when giving up FGs. Sacks, INTs, plus actually being able to return every kick could more than offset lost points for giving up scores? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 Sure, however, it won't affect when I draft a defense. 2nd to last round before my kicker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Brown Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 I've never played in a league where ST yardage gets points. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 4 hours ago, Bobby Brown said: I've never played in a league where ST yardage gets points. I actually just joined a league and during the draft I read the rules and WRs and RBs are given points for kickoff and punt return yardage and TDs. A guy like Rashid Shaheed goes from being a WR 4 to a WR 2/3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Brown Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 (edited) 3 hours ago, irish said: I actually just joined a league and during the draft I read the rules and WRs and RBs are given points for kickoff and punt return yardage and TDs. A guy like Rashid Shaheed goes from being a WR 4 to a WR 2/3. I have no problem with a position player getting 6 points for a ST TD. That is certainly different than the premise of STs getting 0.1 points per 1 yard return......and I assume this is where the OP is coming from. I play in a IDP dynasty league where only position players get points on return yardage on punts/kickoffs; but it's weighted way lower than position players from the snap. Sounds like there are going to be some leagues that are year behind updating the rules. I wouldn't play in a league where STs or token players get substantial points on gimmick kickoffs. Edited August 18 by Bobby Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 36 minutes ago, Bobby Brown said: I have no problem with a position player getting 6 points for a ST TD. That is certainly different than the premise of STs getting 0.1 points per 1 yard return......and I assume this is where the OP is coming from. I play in a IDP dynasty league where only position players get points on return yardage on punts/kickoffs; but it's weighted way lower than position players from the snap. Sounds like there are going to be some leagues that are year behind updating the rules. I wouldn't play in a league where STs or token players get substantial points on gimmick kickoffs. I hear ya. For me personally, I'm just happy that I looked at the scoring rules before drafting, as it absolutely changes who you pick. Shaheed becomes more draftable in a league like this over guys like Reed, JSN, Lockett, Hopkins, Sutton, etc. I watched other WRs in this league get picked before him and was happy to see him drop. I've never played in a league that gave points for ST stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted August 19 Share Posted August 19 Our D scoring never included ST scoring, only individual players got that, and we never did yardage. Not sure how anybody would be guestimating these values for any player for this season with heavily modified kickoff rules and no history to go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loaf Posted August 19 Share Posted August 19 On 8/18/2024 at 1:33 AM, irish said: I hear ya. For me personally, I'm just happy that I looked at the scoring rules before drafting, as it absolutely changes who you pick. Shaheed becomes more draftable in a league like this over guys like Reed, JSN, Lockett, Hopkins, Sutton, etc. I watched other WRs in this league get picked before him and was happy to see him drop. I've never played in a league that gave points for ST stats. It doesn’t make as big an impact as I would’ve liked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) 6 hours ago, loaf said: It doesn’t make as big an impact as I would’ve liked Last season, Shaheed finished as the 49th ranked WR in my one league that doesn't award ST points, in the new league I've just joined he finished 26th. How is that not a fairly sizeable impact? The addition of awarding ST points, absolutely changes how you would rank players and where they would be drafted. It was about a 35 point difference on the season. Shaheed finished ahead of Sutton, Rashee Rice, Flowers, Thielen, Waddle, Godwin, McLaurin, Dell, Lockett, Garrett Wilson, Cooks, Doubs, London, Kirk, Higgins, Samuel, Jeudy, JSN, and the list goes on... In my other league, every single one of those WRs finished ahead of Shaheed except Jeudy. Knowing that rule absolutely makes as big an impact as I'd like, based on that data. Edited August 20 by irish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 9 hours ago, stevegrab said: Our D scoring never included ST scoring, only individual players got that, and we never did yardage. Not sure how anybody would be guestimating these values for any player for this season with heavily modified kickoff rules and no history to go on. My guesstimate would tell me that with the rule changes, it is more likely to see not only kick returns in general instead of touch backs, but increased yardage on kick returns and likely more TDs. Therefore, increasing the value of players that are awarded points for ST yards and TDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loaf Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 On 8/19/2024 at 10:03 PM, irish said: Last season, Shaheed finished as the 49th ranked WR in my one league that doesn't award ST points, in the new league I've just joined he finished 26th. How is that not a fairly sizeable impact? The addition of awarding ST points, absolutely changes how you would rank players and where they would be drafted. It was about a 35 point difference on the season. Shaheed finished ahead of Sutton, Rashee Rice, Flowers, Thielen, Waddle, Godwin, McLaurin, Dell, Lockett, Garrett Wilson, Cooks, Doubs, London, Kirk, Higgins, Samuel, Jeudy, JSN, and the list goes on... In my other league, every single one of those WRs finished ahead of Shaheed except Jeudy. Knowing that rule absolutely makes as big an impact as I'd like, based on that data. not what I meant but good on you...I meant to deepen the player pool in a 32 team league by adding those points but those points were reduced in the final rule from what I proposed. Now, a return guy is not as valuable unless he's in the game otherwise. Return points typically are between 2-4 per week rendering just return guys unstartable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1fastdoc Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) On 8/19/2024 at 9:03 PM, irish said: Last season, Shaheed finished as the 49th ranked WR in my one league that doesn't award ST points, in the new league I've just joined he finished 26th. How is that not a fairly sizeable impact? The addition of awarding ST points, absolutely changes how you would rank players and where they would be drafted. It was about a 35 point difference on the season. Shaheed finished ahead of Sutton, Rashee Rice, Flowers, Thielen, Waddle, Godwin, McLaurin, Dell, Lockett, Garrett Wilson, Cooks, Doubs, London, Kirk, Higgins, Samuel, Jeudy, JSN, and the list goes on... In my other league, every single one of those WRs finished ahead of Shaheed except Jeudy. Knowing that rule absolutely makes as big an impact as I'd like, based on that data. We made the change in our league a few years ago and I like it. The die hard guys with 30 years of playing FF whined about it though. D/ST gets 1 point per 10 yards. I figure, if a defense puts the effort to return the ball, they should be rewarded. Run it back 90 yards, fail to get a TD and get no points in standard leagues for that? That's bs. This does change D/ST rankings compared to most predictive sites though. To me FF is a mathematical game using football as a medium and I don't like luck or variance. The change favors the manager that does his homework instead of just looking at a plug and play website. Looking at Shaheed in our Yahoo league, they have him as 46 but I don't know what that means (Hill was #1 despite CeeDee having more points). When I count it out he was 19th with 227.90 points for the 2023 season. Yes, it makes a difference with D/ST scoring week to week; some defenses are aggressive with kick returns, others rarely bother. I just looked at the defense. Now I guess I'll have to look at the WR who do double duty, I'm not even sure who they are though. Edited August 22 by 1fastdoc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Brown Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 (edited) On 8/22/2024 at 8:53 AM, 1fastdoc said: To me FF is a mathematical game using football as a medium and I don't like luck or variance. The change favors the manager that does his homework instead of just looking at a plug and play website. Hmm...it seem like you're completely enhancing luck and variance by giving STs 1 point per 10 yards. With the new kickoff rules, STs would be some of the highest scorers in a standard league; and the point output is going to vary drastically each week based on luck and happenstance. Wouldn't the crappiest defenses be the most valuable STs because they get so many kickoff returns? 🤔 If you give kickers 10 points per XP and 30 points per FG,,,,I suppose that would make owners use mathematics and do their homework also. I've played FF for a long time and I'm always open to new leagues, new rules, new ideas, new lineups, new scoring etc etc......but weighing ST scoring so heavily would be a hard pass for me.... Edited August 23 by Bobby Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1fastdoc Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 2 hours ago, Bobby Brown said: Hmm...it seem like you're completely enhancing luck and variance by giving STs 1 point per 10 yards. With the new kickoff rules, STs would be some of the highest scorers in a standard league; and the point output is going to vary drastically each week based on luck and happenstance. Wouldn't the crappiest defenses be the most valuable STs because they get so many kickoff returns? 🤔 If you give kickers 10 points per XP and 30 points per FG,,,,I suppose that would make owners use mathematics and do their homework also. I've played FF for a long time and I'm always open to new leagues, new rules, new ideas, new lineups, new scoring etc etc......but weighing ST scoring so heavily would be a hard pass for me.... Okay Bobby, it's long but I think you're the guy that will actually read my response. And perhaps I'll even change your mind. In several years it hasn't turned out that way you suspect. Poor defenses are generally poor and they're not going to run the ball back very far. They also allow more points, which means fewer FF points. What I found is that some defenses are more inclined to attempt the return while others almost always take the fair catch. Great defenses are still great, weak defenses are still weak. But the middle third does stratify out differently. Return yards are more consistent than praying for a pick 6 or shutting out opponents. A good FF manager capitalizes on this as you'll see below. As for variance, increasing the ways to earn FF points increases data points, which decreases variance. For example, if the only way to score points in FF was by touchdowns, your week to week scores are going to fluctuate dramatically and a great or poor week can significantly change your average. Winning or losing heads up would also rely much more on luck. Add yardage, more data points, your weekly scores will get closer to the seasonal average. Over weeks, well built FF teams will do well, poor teams will do poorly. Then add PPR, raising the number of data points, and your week to week fluctuations decrease even further. Ultimately, you have to rely LESS on luck. Lastly, a good defense may run up against Mahomes and suffer from Kelce scoring 6 TD's. Fewer interceptions but more return opportunities. Or they go up against the Bears and get more interceptions but fewer return yards. I found that by adding return yardage, it reduced the chance of having a defense make or break a manager in any given week. The end result is closer games week to week, which keeps it more interesting for FF managers. My goal as Commish is to keep it close and incentivize guys to actively manage their teams. The difference last year between best overall score and worst (excluding the one guy that just can't manage well) was under 400 points: 2413 points (me, surprised?) down to 2022 points. First had 2100 points and went 10-5. 2nd, 3rd and 4th all finished 9-6. The next two were 8-7, the next two 7-8. The 6-9 guy had multiple injuries and also never changed his defense from Dallas. The 2-13 guy, well, he's not cut out for dynasty. Math class over but as an aside I'll share this: The guy that would agree with you and hates D/ST scoring is the guy that went 10-5. He has an MBA from Iowa and has been playing Fantasy everything for 30+ years. He is also the guy that did my draft for me the first year I started playing (2015) because I didn't even know what a running back was. After the draft he left it in my hands. I learned the positions but more importantly I learned the behaviors. I approach it much differently than he does -- my absolute priority is consistency. I won the league that year and I think at this point my overall record is better than his. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 On 8/19/2024 at 10:03 PM, irish said: Last season, Shaheed finished as the 49th ranked WR in my one league that doesn't award ST points, in the new league I've just joined he finished 26th. How is that not a fairly sizeable impact? The addition of awarding ST points, absolutely changes how you would rank players and where they would be drafted. It was about a 35 point difference on the season. Shaheed finished ahead of Sutton, Rashee Rice, Flowers, Thielen, Waddle, Godwin, McLaurin, Dell, Lockett, Garrett Wilson, Cooks, Doubs, London, Kirk, Higgins, Samuel, Jeudy, JSN, and the list goes on... In my other league, every single one of those WRs finished ahead of Shaheed except Jeudy. Knowing that rule absolutely makes as big an impact as I'd like, based on that data. What does the scoring for return yards look like in that league? I'm in a league where it's 6pts/TD and 1pt every 100yds and then another 1 pt @100 yds 🤣, 2 pts @200 yds and 5pts @ 300 yds. So if Shaheed reaches 300 return yds in a game with a TD he will have 17 pts just off the return yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Avernus said: What does the scoring for return yards look like in that league? I'm in a league where it's 6pts/TD and 1pt every 100yds and then another 1 pt @100 yds 🤣, 2 pts @200 yds and 5pts @ 300 yds. So if Shaheed reaches 300 return yds in a game with a TD he will have 17 pts just off the return yards. Good to see you around, Avernus. Your league is crazy awesome awarding points for ST production. This league is nowhere near as good. Punt and Kick return TDs - 6 pts Punt Return Yards .05 points each Kickoff Return Yards .02 points each Shaheed was the 26th overall WR in this league last year and he should better those numbers this year with him still returning kicks and being a larger part of the offense. Edited August 28 by irish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 42 minutes ago, irish said: Good to see you around, Avernus. Your league is crazy awesome awarding points for ST production. This league is nowhere near as good. Punt and Kick return TDs - 6 pts Punt Return Yards .05 points each Kickoff Return Yards .02 points each Shaheed was the 26th overall WR in this league last year and he should better those numbers this year with him still returning kicks and being a larger part of the offense. Thanks Irish, same here...good to see some familiar faces. Agreed, I started getting buyers remorse because I chose him over Keon Coleman thinking I could get both because I picked again 5 slots later.......but he went right after I took Shaheed ahaha! Now I feel a whole lot better with having both Shaheed and Worthy from KC as my WR 2 and 3 in a 14 team. I thought I butchered this draft but I feel almost as if I stole something....I have to temper expectations lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 (edited) After 2 weeks, in this league I was discussing, Shaheed is the #1 WR. So far, I think it's making as big a difference, just as I was hoping. Between Shaheed, Barkley and Bowers, they're holding my team afloat. Edited September 22 by irish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1fastdoc Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 On 9/22/2024 at 9:19 AM, irish said: After 2 weeks, in this league I was discussing, Shaheed is the #1 WR. So far, I think it's making as big a difference, just as I was hoping. Between Shaheed, Barkley and Bowers, they're holding my team afloat. He needs to stay on D/ST. Now he's eating Olave's targets. Not cool. And I really, really wish I had offered a trade for him - the guy who has him is the only 2-0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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