Gators Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 (edited) Nice Charty...I believe I might have made a huge blunder from the very beginning of this post. Instead of praising Brady, and asking if he is the best ever, I should have asked if Peyton Manning was the worst clutch QB in the NFL. Of all the top notch qbs, I would probably rank only McNabb lower than Manning, in clutch performances. I truly believe if Brady, Culpepper,Brett Favre and a few others, ran the Colts "O", that they would have won a superbowl by now. Lets face it, Manning is just not a big game quarterback. So lets quit blaming the defense,the offensive line,Tony Dungy, the receivers, the gm etc...for all of Mannings failures to win big games, and admit that Peyton crumbles in big games. If New Englands defense is so good why did Philly and Carolina light them up for so many points while the Colts could only muster 3? Edited June 8, 2005 by Gators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 If New Englands defense is so good why did Philly and Carolina light them up for so many points and the Colts could only muster 3? 834840[/snapback] Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 (edited) If New Englands defense is so good why did Philly and Carolina light them up for so many points while the Colts could only muster 3? 834840[/snapback] Because those games weren't played in blizzards? Philly didn't really "light up" NE. And the Pats defense picked off McNabb three times. That's what makes them a great defense. They force turnovers. Edited June 8, 2005 by Bill Swerski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gators Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 (edited) McNabb is not a big game quarterback either and he threw for 357 yards and 3 tds. to go along with the 3 picks and two of those picks were thrown right to the NE defensive players.......Heck, Cinci threw for 328 yards and 3 tds against NE.....Trent Green threw for 381 yds aganst NE with 2 tds... Edited June 8, 2005 by Gators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 (edited) McNabb is not a big game quarterback either and he threw for 357 yards and 3 tds. to go along with the 3 picks and two of those picks were thrown right to the NE defensive players.......Heck, Cinci threw for 328 yards and 3 tds against NE.....Trent Green threw for 381 yds aganst NE with 2 tds... 835382[/snapback] But did they do that in snow and 20-degree temperatures? No. BTW, Manning threw for 256 yds and 2 TDs in Week 1 this past season and for 278 yds with 4 TDs in Week 13 in '03. The latter game was indoors and the former was in 70-degree weather. So, what was your point again? Edited June 8, 2005 by Bill Swerski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gators Posted June 8, 2005 Author Share Posted June 8, 2005 (edited) The only point I am trying to make is that you make Peyton out to be a God, and you blame his failures on everything and everybody else. First excuse is New Englands defense to too tough. Secondly the weather is too cold for Peyton . You fail to mention that over half of Mannings games are weather controlled dome games. You also fail to mention that Manning has the best skilled supporting cast in the league. Many Nfl qbs could put up similar numbers with the Colts offense and dome games.Just admit that he is not a big game qb and that Brady is... Edited June 8, 2005 by Gators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 (edited) The only point I am trying to make is that you make Peyton out to be a God, and you blame his failures on everything and everybody else. First excuse is New Englands defense to too tough. Secondly the weather is too cold for Peyton . You fail to mention that over half of Mannings games are weather controlled dome games. You also fail to mention that Manning has the best skilled supporting cast in the league. Many Nfl qbs could put up similar numbers with the Colts offense and dome games.Just admit that he is not a big game qb and that Brady is... 835422[/snapback] Um, no, I don't "make Peyton out to be a God." I think that he's currently the best QB in the NFL and that, when his career ends, he'll rank up there with Unitas, Marino, Fouts, Favre, and the rest of the NFL's greatest pure passers. If you want to join the ranks of UT and the other New England Ass-Lickers by forcing your opinion down my throat, go right ahead. I don't really care what you think. What you fail to understand is that TEAMS win championships, not individuals. What the hell has Brady done when his defense has ranked lower than 10th in the league? Jack squat. He didn't even make it to the playoffs in '02. Why? Because defense wins championships. What has Favre won without Reggie White, Gilbert Brown, Vonnie Holliday, LeRoy Butler, and the rest of the consensus #1 defense from 1996? Again, jack squat. Brady's a very good QB, but he's only won when he's played on teams with stellar defenses. Put him on the recent Colts, Vikings, or Chiefs squads, or any other team with great offensive weapons and no defense, and he wouldn't have won crap. And, as I've said before, it's ridiculous to even compare the two. They're in completely different situations and have completely different responsibilities. Edited June 8, 2005 by Bill Swerski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grogansghost Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Um, no. TEAMS win football games, not individual players. And if you want to win a championship, you'd better have a solid defense. 832910[/snapback] The Patriots take a conservative/balanced approach in terms of spending which allows them to be strong on both sides of the ball. Do colts fans feel that feeding the offensive machine of Manning and his supporting cast comes at too high of a cost to the rest of the team? Do you think it would be an overall negative or positive to the colts if they had a quarterback with a lower salary, but then had more money to spend on defense? I think the Colts D was starting to improve at the end of last year...a trend that will be scary if it continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gators Posted June 9, 2005 Author Share Posted June 9, 2005 Maybe I am wrong, but I feel you can give the Colts home field advantage and the NFL All-Pro Defensive starters and you guys would be racing around to find more excuses on why poor Peyton lost the big one. I have nothing against ,Manning but he has the Joe Ferguson look in his eyes. All the talent in the world and a shaky confidence against big teams, in big games. I don't think any of the Mannings have the Michael Jordan Moxy. The ability to load a team on their backs and carry Them to Championships. Archie taught the tikes to whine, cry and make excuses for their failures. Now, you the fans have bought into all of that s#@t... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Maybe I am wrong, but I feel you can give the Colts home field advantage and the NFL All-Pro Defensive starters and you guys would be racing around to find more excuses on why poor Peyton lost the big one. I have nothing against ,Manning but he has the Joe Ferguson look in his eyes. All the talent in the world and a shaky confidence against big teams, in big games. I don't think any of the Mannings have the Michael Jordan Moxy. The ability to load a team on their backs and carry Them to Championships. Archie taught the tikes to whine, cry and make excuses for their failures. Now, you the fans have bought into all of that s#@t... 835843[/snapback] Not for nothing, but you're an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gators Posted June 9, 2005 Author Share Posted June 9, 2005 I have an Idea....To make things fair for Peyton, and try to solidify his place in the all time QB rankings..Lets give the Colts home field advantage for the rest of Peytons playoff career. We can also make teams play with 10 defensive starters against Peyton in the playoffs....I'd hate to see the kid denied a ring...We can't just give one to him, ya know!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 I have an Idea....To make things fair for Peyton, and try to solidify his place in the all time QB rankings..Lets give the Colts home field advantage for the rest of Peytons playoff career. We can also make teams play with 10 defensive starters against Peyton in the playoffs....I'd hate to see the kid denied a ring...We can't just give one to him, ya know!!! 835859[/snapback] Definitely suffering from an I D 10 T Problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Maybe I am wrong, but I feel you can give the Colts home field advantage and the NFL All-Pro Defensive starters and you guys would be racing around to find more excuses on why poor Peyton lost the big one. I have nothing against ,Manning but he has the Joe Ferguson look in his eyes. All the talent in the world and a shaky confidence against big teams, in big games. I don't think any of the Mannings have the Michael Jordan Moxy. The ability to load a team on their backs and carry Them to Championships. Archie taught the tikes to whine, cry and make excuses for their failures. Now, you the fans have bought into all of that s#@t... 835843[/snapback] Blah, blah, blah... You have chosen to ignore Gators. View this post · Squeeze me a little harder Gators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stimer Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 A little quote from profootball-reference.com ... Tom Brady is not in the all-time top 50 in any major category. I am sure all you Tom Brady suck-ups will say "Give him time, but we will see" By the way Bart Starr may it to the Super Bowl twice in a row in 67 & 68 (and was MVP both times) and made it to the NFL Championship (before Super Bowl) game also in 62, 63, 65 and the Pack won those too I believe. Bottom line is that Brady is an above average quarterback on an extremely solid team who knows what it takes to get the job done. Has he accomplished quite a bit, yes, but does that make him the best ever after only 5 seasons. Don't think so. If he keeps improving and keeps winning there will be little doubt, but now is a little premature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 (edited) Gators, you obviously haven't seen too many of Manning's games. Yes, he had ONE BAD GAME in the AFC Championship against the Pats in a snow storm. Last year, he had a sub-par Manning game against the Pats. But Brady has won several play-off games with numbers similiar to what Manning did. There were several dropped balls and turnovers, and the defense gave up 14, 15, AND 16 PLAY drives that kept the Colts off the field. I said it then, and I'll say it now, the Patriots were the better team last year. But it IS a team game. You are obviously more blinded by your hatred for Manning than anything else. But Manning is the better QB. Is Matt Light the best left tackle to have ever played? Is he the best in the league? He has three rings too. Edited June 9, 2005 by CaptainHook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 C'mon. Brady is a good QB with a great head on his shoulders. Ya gotta give a lot of credit for NEs success to Bill's genius and that of their front office. Think Peyton would win a few more playoff games if he had a defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uglytuna Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Tom Brady is without a doubt the best QB ever. He has never lost a playoff game. The guys is all money. What make a QB? A QB that throws alot of touchdown passes or a QB that wins games? BTW, 2002 Tom Brady only year that he didn't lead his team to the playoffs. Did you know they had a winning recorded at 9-7 and lost to the Jets on tie breakers? Can someone tell me what QB lead the league in 2002 with TD passess? I bet its not Manning? Ugly Tuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Maybe it's just a mindset. It's nice as a fan to have something to brag about your team when they aren't winning in the playoff's. "See (insert players name) is the best and he has (insert achievement) so that's why he is the best right now and will be remembered as one of the best of all time." In 2002 Rich Gannon threw for almost 4,700 yards, was the starting Pro Bowl QB, leader in most of the passing categories and lead the Raiders to the Super Bowl. But had a terrible game when he got there. So what does everyone remember about that season? That Tampa Bays defense was one of the best of all time and the were the champs. No one remembers sh!t else about that season. People can make all the excuses they want about why certain players don't win playoff games or Super Bowls ie the weather, my defense sucks, we didn't have homefield advantage, my shoes were too tight, too much time off/not enough time off, the officials, no respect from the media, my breathe right strip was cockeyed, blah blah blah. In the end no one really cares. If you lost, you really weren't good enough to earn the win. If you are truly a special player or team you win that game. Period............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 (edited) In the end no one really cares. If you lost, you really weren't good enough to earn the win. If you are truly a special player or team you win that game. Period............ 836897[/snapback] Its true..We already can see that Rothlisberg is a terrible playoff QB and should be a big concern in Pitt. Edited June 10, 2005 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gators Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 First and foremost, I have nothing against Peyton Manning. I also understand why many of you have defended Peyton on this thread. His stats are monsterous. I just believe Brady dosen't get his due, because he does not throw up gaudy stats. Mannings receiving core is much more solid than the Patriots ....While I believe Dillon is better than Edge between the tackles, Edge pads Mannings stats with great receiving abilites..On any other team in the NFL, Edge would run for 1500-2000 yds and have 15-20 rushing TDS....Reggie Wayne would be the, by far, The #1 receiver in New England...Then Colts have the best receiving TE tandom in the league...Manning has all those weapons at his disposal, how could any other QB ,not lead league in TD passes...Give Brady a dome and those guys to throw to and he'd have 50 tds too.....The biggest difference between Brady and Manning, I feel, is Brady has more composure in big situations.. I will say, Manning will go down in the books as one of the greatest QBs of all time, because of the Stats.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 (edited) Mannings receiving core is much more solid than the Patriots837200[/snapback] No argument there. The Colts WR are better. But you could argue they are better because of Peyton Manning. Harrison never was a "stud" WR until Manning was drafted. And before last year, who would have said that Reggie Wayne could be a #1 receiver on ANY team? Nobody that I saw. And Brandon Stokley??? Nobody wanted that guy. He'd was released from a team, the Ravens, who are desperate for offense. But everybody says "Manning has ALL those weapons". He's got them because he works so hard with them in the off-season. While I believe Dillon is better than Edge between the tackles, Edge pads Mannings stats with great receiving abilites837200[/snapback] Anybody who watches the Colts knows that Edge is an afterthought in the Colts passing game. He hasn't helped pad Manning's passing stats since his knee injury. Then Colts have the best receiving TE tandom in the league837200[/snapback] Don't the Patriots have TWO tight ends they drafted in the first round and another that was a second round pick? Give Brady a dome and those guys to throw to and he'd have 50 tds too837200[/snapback] I SERIOUSLY doubt that. The biggest difference between Brady and Manning, I feel, is Brady has more composure in big situations837200[/snapback] Like choking against the Dolphins on MNF when the #1 seed was on the line? Check Brady's stats from play-off games. Prepare to be underwhelmed. Undoubtedly, Brady has made some great drives in clutch situations when the score was TIED to lead his team to a FG. But why was he in those situations? Defense, defense, defense kept them in the game. A lot of very good QB's have had awful games against that defense. It must be nice to only have to score 22 points in order to win seven of nine career play-off games (and the Patriots only would have needed 18 points to win six of nine!). And I haven't even mentioned the Patriots special teams single handedly winning several other play-off games (the 2001 AFC Championship comes to mind). In my mind Brady is a very good quarterback. But there is little doubt in my mind that SEVERAL QB's in the league could have led the Patriots to 3 Super Bowl wins. Edited June 10, 2005 by CaptainHook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Anybody who watches the Colts knows that Edge is an afterthought in the Colts passing game. He hasn't helped pad Manning's passing stats since his knee injury. 837933[/snapback] Top receiving RB's in 04 Curtis Martin 41 rec's 245 yards Edgerrin James 51 rec's 483 yards Tiki Barber 52 rec's 578 yards Ladanian Tomlinson 53 rec's 441 yards Domanick Davis 68 rec's 588 yards Ahman Green 40 rec's 275 yards Deuce McAllister 34 rec's 228 yards Warrick Dunn 29 rec's 294 yards Jerald Sowell 45 rec's 342 yards Nick Goings 45 rec's 394 yards Thomas Jones 56 rec's 427 yards Shawn Bryson 44 rec's 322 yards Fred Taylor 36 rec's 345 yards Onterrio Smith 36 rec's 394 yards Brian Westbrook 73 rec's 703 yards Michael Pittman 41 rec's 391 yards Edge was 6th amongst RB's in receptions and 4th in yards. Not too bad for being an after thought............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 (edited) He's had ZERO receiving TD's in over two and a half years. He's only had 3 receptions over 20 yards in two and a half years. Compare that with 9 TD's and 17 plays over 20 yards receiving pre-injury. . . Edited June 10, 2005 by CaptainHook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I don't think Edge pads Manning's passing stats as much as some think. Let's look at the numbers slightly differently. Faulk and Dillion combined for 41 receptions of Brady's 288 completions. Those two accounted for 14% of Brady's completions. Faulk and Dillion combined for 351 receiving yards of Brady's 3692 passing yards. Thos two accounted for 10% of Brady's passing yards. James and Monroe combined for 58 receptions of Manning's 336 completions. Those two accounted for 17% of Manning's completions. (slightly higher then Faulk and Dillon but not by much) James and Monroe combined for 519 of Manning's 4557 passing yards. Those two accounted for 11% of Manning's pasisng yards. (only 1% more than Faulk and Dillon) IMO these numbers are pretty close and shows that the Colts RB's pad Manning's numbers not much more than Faulk and Dillion pad Brady's numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenom Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I don't think Edge is padding Manning's numbers. I just don't think he is an afterthought in the Colts passing game. What is padding Manning's number's is the Colts gameplan. Is one player better than another because they get more opportunities to show off their ability? No I don't think so. I think OJ Simpson had the best single rushing season of all time when he rushed for over 2,000 yards in 14 games. To me that means Jamal Lewis is not on equal footing because it took him 387 attempts to get 2066 yards when it took OJ 332 attempts to get 2003 yards. A lot of players would put up obscene numbers if an offense was geared to showcase their skills. However the majority of teams try to maintain a balanced offense between running and passing the ball/strong offense and a strong defense. Some teams that's not as high a priority so they skew the numbers............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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