James Harrison

[CaptainHook]

Fineable helmet to helmet hit on a QB, yes. Suspendable, nope, not in those circumstances when he was outside the pocket within inches of turning from QB to runner. There was no intent to injure (see Suh, Haynesworth, Cole), just a hard hit with poor technique. The suspension was obviously a little payback from the commish for the "puppet" comments over the summer.

You sir, are a blind homer. And an idiot.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Protecting the stationary passer in the pocket who often has a blind side hit coming I can see, after all Q.B.'s are the goose that lays the golden egg. Even here one could argue that maybe they ought to be checking their blind side if they do not want to get hit.

 

Protecting defenseless reecivers I sort of get, hey they are defenseless. Of course they are not really defenseless, they knew where everybody was when they went up for the catch. They could have defended themselves by not going up for the ball, or their Q.B. could have defended them by not leading them into a hit. Just maybe if a reciever is going to get lit up he should be considered not open by the Q.B.

 

I sort of get allowing Q.B.'s to slide.

 

What I don't get is this, when a Q.B. who is protected in the pocket leaves that protection and starts running, when he has the option of seeking safety by throwing the ball away before the hit becomes imminent or of sliding for his own protection, when he forsakes that protection and he chooses to take the play right to the edge that the consequences should be on the defense. This is sort of like diving off of your roof face first onto your concrete driveway and then blaming gravity and the concrete for your fate. You want safety, make smarter decisions.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Ditkaless Wonders

[Hugh 0ne]

Protecting the stationary passer in the pocket who often has a blind side hit coming I can see, after all Q.B.'s are the goose that lays the golden egg. Even here one could argue that maybe they ought to be checking their blind side if they do not want to get hit.

 

Protecting defenseless reecivers I sort of get, hey they are defenseless. Of course they are not really defenseless, they knew where everybody was when they went up for the catch. They could have defended themselves by not going up for the ball, or their Q.B. could have defended them by not leading them into a hit. Just maybe if a reciever is going to get lit up he should be considered not open by the Q.B.

 

I sort of get allowing Q.B.'s to slide.

 

What I don't get is this, when a Q.B. who is protected in the pocket leaves that protection and starts running, when he has the option of seeking safety by throwing the ball away before the hit becomes imminent or of sliding for his own protection, when he forsakes that portection and he chooses to take the play right to the edge that the consequences should be on the defense. This is sort of like diving off of your roof face first onto your concrete driveway and then blaming gravity and the concrete for your fate. You want safety, make smarter decisions.

 

You're clearly missing the point. No one is saying that he should not have been hit, the problem is that Harrison clearly led with this helmet which resulted in a clearly illegal helmet to helmet hit, and this is clearly not his first offense. If it was a clean hit no one would be talking about this.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

You're clearly missing the point. No one is saying that he should not have been hit, the problem is that Harrison clearly led with this helmet which resulted in a clearly illegal helmet to helmet hit, and this is clearly not his first offense. If it was a clean hit no one would be talking about this.

 

 

I often miss the point.

 

I get that helmet to helmet hits are now illegal. I understand the danger they present. I just happen to believe the league is looking at the matter wrong in putting all of the responsibility for the coming together of two moving, thinking, reacting athletes on only one of the two. I do not like a rule that allows the offense to refuse to protect itself. Others clearly disagree.

 

I was not so much arguing the application of the new rules in the instance under discusssion as trying to raise the question of whether theose rules are fair or even make any damn sense whatsoever. Perhaps in changing the direction of the discussion some I should have started a new thread, I don't know, it sort of seemed to fit.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Ditkaless Wonders

[detlef]

I often miss the point.

 

I get that helmet to helmet hits are now illegal. I understand the danger they present. I just happen to believe the league is looking at the matter wrong in putting all of the responsibility for the coming together of two moving, thinking, reacting athletes on only one of the two. I do not like a rule that allows the offense to refuse to protect itself. Others clearly disagree.

So, in other words, either Colt McCoy aborts the play and surrenders himself or, he gets whatever is coming? Including a blow to the head? Like Hugh said, nobody is blaming Harrison for hitting him, and nobody would have minded if he "decleated" him with vicious but fair tackle. And dog knows he had every chance to. McCoy was looking to make a play down field and was not in any position to avoid the tackle or certainly deliver any sort of reciprocal blow (like a RB might do). So, there McCoy was, standing nearly upright, looking down field, chest totally exposed.

 

Hell, Harrison could have broken a rib if he wanted to. And nobody would say boo because he led with his shoulder into the body. The appropriate response to that would be, "Hey, it's a violent sport, and once the QB leaves the pocket, he's a runner." But he didn't, he aimed as high as he possibly could and went straight for the helmet. And that, combined with the fact that he's a repeat offender, is why people are outraged.

 

ETA: McCoy did complete the pass, for a first down, no less. And if curled up or threw it away, Rome would be calling him Chrissy Everett. A QB's job is to stand in and take the hit if it means completing a pass. But I think it's a bit much to ask him to do so if that means a LB gets a free helmet to helmet shot at him.

Edited December 14, 2011 by detlef

[Hugh 0ne]

I often miss the point.

 

I get that helmet to helmet hits are now illegal. I understand the danger they present. I just happen to believe the league is looking at the matter wrong in putting all of the responsibility for the coming together of two moving, thinking, reacting athletes on only one of the two. I do not like a rule that allows the offense to refuse to protect itself. Others clearly disagree.

 

 

Well, one player is initiating the hit as he rams his helmet in to the face of another player that does not see the hit coming. Maybe you can tell me what McCoy did wrong to help me see your side of the argument?

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Well, one player is initiating the hit as he rams his helmet in to the face of another player that does not see the hit coming. Maybe you can tell me what McCoy did wrong to help me see your side of the argument?

 

 

To begin I would not necessarily take the argument down to the specific situation of harrison and McCoy, but would veiw it more generally. Nevertheless, the Q.B. has left the pocket and is running. He sees the crazed linebacker in his path, after all the Q.B. is looking where he is going. He can slide and be protected. He can throw away the ball without penalty and be protected. He could even put his head down and drive into the linebacker who really does not know what is coming at that point. He is not defenseless. The Q.B. has options.

 

The Q.B. chooses, and that is the important point, he chooses to try to make a last second play. He opens himself to risk. To write, as you have, that he does not see the hit coming is, in my mind, inaccurate. I just believe that choices have consequences. This new rule encourages risky and foolish behavior, in my opinion. There really was no play to be made.

 

This is the new NFL. It wants plays to be made even when they are not there. Things change and old timers like me sometimes cling to the past.

[detlef]

To begin I would not necessarily take the argument down to the specific situation of harrison and McCoy, but would veiw it more generally. Nevertheless, the Q.B. has left the pocket and is running. He sees the crazed linebacker in his path, after all the Q.B. is looking where he is going. He can slide and be protected. He can throw away the ball without penalty and be protected. He could even put his head down and drive into the linebacker who really does not know what is coming at that point. He is not defenseless. The Q.B. has options.

 

The Q.B. chooses, and that is the important point, he chooses to try to make a last second play. He opens himself to risk. To write, as you have, that he does not see the hit coming is, in my mind, inaccurate. I just believe that choices have consequences. This new rule encourages risky and foolish behavior, in my opinion. There really was no play to be made.

 

This is the new NFL. It wants plays to be made even when they are not there. Things change and old timers like me sometimes cling to the past.

But that wouldn't have been roughing the passer had he not hit him in the helmet. Or, rather, it shouldn't have been. And I honestly don't think it would have been called. Harrison certainly didn't have enough time to pull up and avoid the hit, and that's supposed to be the rule. So it sounds like you're pretending the rules are other than what they are.

 

And, yes, I realize there've been some very borderline calls (on the wrong side of that line) where guys didn't have the chance to pull up and got the flag. And I don't think there are many here who like those calls and wish the NFL would find another way to police this issue.

 

But that is not what happened in this case.

[i_am_the_swammi]

Well, one player is initiating the hit as he rams his helmet in to the face of another player that does not see the hit coming. Maybe you can tell me what McCoy did wrong to help me see your side of the argument?

 

Let me first say this: I think the fine and suspension to harrison are warranted. He obviously broke the rules as they are currently written, and as a repeat offender with a target on his back, I am not surprised or outraged at the punishment one bit.

 

One the flip side, I think the point of DW's post is that, often, football players protect themselves in a variety of ways. many times, you see a WR going across them middle for a pass, and "alligator arm" their effort while turtling to protect themselves. I've seen many CBs arm tackle a 240 pound RB, not wanting to get steamrolled. Other QBs scramble, and slide just before there is a danger of hard contact. Other QBs just throw the ball away early, and live to play another down. It happens all the time.

 

When looking at the video, it is obvious McCoy sees Harrison coming his way. Like the examples above, he could have aborted the throw in plenty of time, tucked it, and slid. He could have thrown it earlier. Both of which would have resulted in a play that netted less yardage, so kudos to him for his toughness in knowing he was going to take a massive hit, but proceeded anyway. Point is though, he could have opted for a safer option, like my examples above, but didn't. By running, and then positioning his body completely upright to make the last-second throw, he opened himself up to a potentially severe injury.

 

Again, the net result was not only a hard hit, but an illegal one. Harrison earned his penalty, fine and suspension. But don't say McCoy didn't put his body in a precarious position to be throttled...he clearly did. That doesn't mean he should be fair game to illegal hits, either....but it certainly didn't discourage one.

[detlef]

Again, the net result was not only a hard hit, but an illegal one. Harrison earned his penalty, fine and suspension. But don't say McCoy didn't put his body in a precarious position to be throttled...he clearly did. That doesn't mean he should be fair game to illegal hits, either....but it certainly didn't discourage one.

That's fine, and I don't know why this is even being argued. Is anyone saying that Harrison should have not hit him at all?

[i_am_the_swammi]

That's fine, and I don't know why this is even being argued. Is anyone saying that Harrison should have not hit him at all?

 

I wasn't arguing...just chiming in with my thoughts

[Dont Rookie Me........]

I love his intensity and his play making ability...count me in on the over reaction from the league. In about one step McCoy decided to drop off the ball to an open receiver elevating his stance enough to take a brutal punishment. This all happened about a yard away from the line of scrimmage (in a fast game I can see why someone would consider him a runner at that point, maybe a pass never crossed Harrison's mind). Usually you would see the quarterback slide in the presence of a linebacker ready to tee off on them, just missing the pain that was about to be delivered. He did not and paid the price. Was it a penalty, yes, was it worth a fine, yes, but worth a suspension? I'm just not sold on that.

 

In the heat of the moment you have to go with your gut instinct and I have idea what Harrison was thinking, but there were a couple of things that lead to the hit and it could have ended differently many ways. He was not defenseless he had multiple options, but he decided to stand up straight make a pass over the on coming defender and take the hit, he did.

 

I have seen much worse hits from others and Harrison The main problem I have from here is what happens next time. I'm in for defending defenseless players all the way, but when you tuck the ball, approach the line of scrimmage as a runner and try to make a play at the last second, I'm out.

[Ice1]

While Harrison is a good football player, he plays the game dirty and relishes the role IMO. He knows damn good and well that leading with the crown of the helmet is not legal and very dangerous not only to himself but the player he is hitting.

 

He simply does not care and has said as much multiple times. Fines obviously do not work so a suspension is warranted.

 

He has now caused at least 3 concussions personally. I would hope next time he is suspended 2X for every past illegal hit of this nature or at least 2x for every concussion caused.

 

Crown Helmet hits are really bad as resulting injuries can be far greater than concussions.

 

Harrison drops his eyes and leads with the crown of his helmet; if he is too stupid to change this technique then he needs to be banned from the league. He has had enough chances, fines, and now a one game suspension.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Ice1

[Cunning Runt]

I love his intensity and his play making ability...count me in on the over reaction from the league. In about one step McCoy decided to drop off the ball to an open receiver elevating his stance enough to take a brutal punishment. This all happened about a yard away from the line of scrimmage (in a fast game I can see why someone would consider him a runner at that point, maybe a pass never crossed Harrison's mind). Usually you would see the quarterback slide in the presence of a linebacker ready to tee off on them, just missing the pain that was about to be delivered. He did not and paid the price. Was it a penalty, yes, was it worth a fine, yes, but worth a suspension? I'm just not sold on that.

 

In the heat of the moment you have to go with your gut instinct and I have idea what Harrison was thinking, but there were a couple of things that lead to the hit and it could have ended differently many ways. He was not defenseless he had multiple options, but he decided to stand up straight make a pass over the on coming defender and take the hit, he did.

 

I have seen much worse hits from others and Harrison The main problem I have from here is what happens next time. I'm in for defending defenseless players all the way, but when you tuck the ball, approach the line of scrimmage as a runner and try to make a play at the last second, I'm out.

 

He led with his helmet into McCoy's facemask. It seems to be pretty evident to most that that was Harrison's intended strike point - McCoy's head. That's what made it a dirty and punishable offense.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Cunning Runt

[detlef]

I wasn't arguing...just chiming in with my thoughts

"Argue" as in present one's thoughts. Should I change it to "discussed"? Because DW seems to be trying to turn this into a debate about whether QBs should be hit at all, and I don't think anyone is on the other side of that one.

[i_am_the_swammi]

"Argue" as in present one's thoughts. Should I change it to "discussed"? Because DW seems to be trying to turn this into a debate about whether QBs should be hit at all, and I don't think anyone is on the other side of that one.

 

agreed...

 

I was just saying that if you put yourself in a precarious position, there is a much greater chance your could be at risk. Similar conceptually to a person walking down the street with $100 bills hanging out of their pockets. They obviously are doing nothing against the law, and if they are mugged, the criminal certainly should be punished....but I think we can agree that there may have been better options for the 'victim".

 

There is a reason QBs are given the latitude to go into a protective slide when running the ball....

[stevegrab]

Also keep in mind that last year Harrison dished out hits to not one but two Browns players that resultd in concussions (Cribbs and Massoqui). I do not recall if either was a penalty, or if there was punishment (fine, suspension). He is obviously trying to hurt people, or just plain ignoring the rules.

 

I also like how hiw coach defended him saying "He hasn't had a punishable hit on a QB since I think November 2010". Really wow a whole year without trying to take some dude's head off, I guess we should hit the reset button then and treat him as a new man (like a rookie).

 

I'm really trying not to be a homer here.

 

Harrison's view is "he tucked the ball and ran, so he was a runner". Except as long as you are behind the line of scrimmage and can throw the ball (no other forward pass) you are the passer, and the rules are different. (I'm not sure if the NFL rulebook really says "no helmet-to-helmet on the QB" or if it uses the term passer. Are they really trying to protect the meal ticket, or the guy who can throw the ball and is looking for other things like coverage and open recieves As opposed to a runner (somebody who has the ball and cannot legally pass it) who can focus more on the guys who are looking to blast them.

 

Maybe the rules need to be more consistene and simple, no helmet-to-helmet hits period (regardless of position, ball carrier or not, etc.)

 

The Browns own TJ Ward (a hard hitting safety) disagreed with the suspension, echoing some of Harrison's point of "he's a runner and you're going to hit him" bit. So obviously it isn't all about what team you support.

[stevegrab]

I love his intensity and his play making ability...count me in on the over reaction from the league. In about one step McCoy decided to drop off the ball to an open receiver elevating his stance enough to take a brutal punishment. This all happened about a yard away from the line of scrimmage (in a fast game I can see why someone would consider him a runner at that point, maybe a pass never crossed Harrison's mind). Usually you would see the quarterback slide in the presence of a linebacker ready to tee off on them, just missing the pain that was about to be delivered. He did not and paid the price. Was it a penalty, yes, was it worth a fine, yes, but worth a suspension? I'm just not sold on that.

 

In the heat of the moment you have to go with your gut instinct and I have idea what Harrison was thinking, but there were a couple of things that lead to the hit and it could have ended differently many ways. He was not defenseless he had multiple options, but he decided to stand up straight make a pass over the on coming defender and take the hit, he did.

 

I have seen much worse hits from others and Harrison The main problem I have from here is what happens next time. I'm in for defending defenseless players all the way, but when you tuck the ball, approach the line of scrimmage as a runner and try to make a play at the last second, I'm out.

 

I'm curious how you'd feel if say Rodney Harrison did this to Ben, would you still be ok with it?

 

BTW in less time that it took McCoy to slow/stop and become more upright and throw the ball, Harrison dipped his head to make that contact. He could have just run through the QB and hit him, the ball was already out (or coming out) so it was clearly going to be pass, nothing he could change, no sack or anything. He was just trying to hurt the other guy, not playing the game and impacting the outcome (other than to knock him out).

[Bronco Billy]

What I don't get is this, when a Q.B. who is protected in the pocket leaves that protection and starts running, when he has the option of seeking safety by throwing the ball away before the hit becomes imminent or of sliding for his own protection, when he forsakes that protection and he chooses to take the play right to the edge that the consequences should be on the defense. This is sort of like diving off of your roof face first onto your concrete driveway and then blaming gravity and the concrete for your fate. You want safety, make smarter decisions.

 

For the record, if Harrison had stuck his facemask square between McCoy's numbers and would have blown him up, I would have no issue with it whatsoever. That's football.

 

Attacking McCoy's head intentionally bothers me greatly, but what bothers me even more greatly is that at approximately the 1:00 mark in that link I posted, it shows up close and in slow motion Harrison tilting his head forward just before the hit so as to intentionally strike McCoy not only in the head - which could have been easily avoided by Harrison - to use the crown of his helmet as a weapon on McCoy. Football players have always been trained to lead with their facemask when tackling - it's proper form and it's much safer for both the tackled and the tackler.

 

Attacking the head has been dirty pool for quite a while in football. Attacking the head and doing so with the crown of the helmet goes well beyond the line and is egregious, and IMO shows intent to do injury to McCoy. It could be that Harrison is just completely ignorant of all of this - but I find that hard to believe after all of his years in football and after all that he has been fined for his numerous transgressions against other players, and ignorance would be no excuse for his action in any case.

[Hugh 0ne]

For the record, if Harrison had stuck his facemask square between McCoy's numbers and would have blown him up, I would have no issue with it whatsoever. That's football.

 

See, even Pony Boy gets it.

[coordi88]

hitting someone in the helmet with your helmet doesnt help you tackle anyone. unless you are trying to knock them so senseless they just fall over.

 

wrap the guy up like a man, no need to try and putty someones brain. i never understood leading with your helmet. seems like alot of guys want try to hurt people.

 

there is a difference from wanting to rip someoens head off every play, and trying to give someone a concussion every play.

[Menudo]

I also like how hiw coach defended him saying "He hasn't had a punishable hit on a QB since I think November 2010". Really wow a whole year without trying to take some dude's head off, I guess we should hit the reset button then and treat him as a new man (like a rookie).

 

 

 

"He hit him illegally," Tomlin said of Harrison’s helmet-to-helmet hit on Cleveland quarterback Colt McCoy during Thursday’s game at Heinz Field. "He has to suffer the consequences."

[detlef]

agreed...

 

I was just saying that if you put yourself in a precarious position, there is a much greater chance your could be at risk. Similar conceptually to a person walking down the street with $100 bills hanging out of their pockets. They obviously are doing nothing against the law, and if they are mugged, the criminal certainly should be punished....but I think we can agree that there may have been better options for the 'victim".

 

There is a reason QBs are given the latitude to go into a protective slide when running the ball....

Right, but McCoy has a job to do. And part of that job is to hang in and deliver the ball. Sure, that means he's going to get hit and so be it. That's not asking for trouble, that's doing a risky job. The way DW is putting it, and frankly, you seem to be in line to a degree, it's as if McCoy is "asking for it" (at least asking to be destroyed even if not getting hit in the head) by simply not being a coward.

 

Sure, the QB gets the slide and all. Actually, everyone is allowed to slide, it's just that when others, like Ki Jana Carter, do it, they're laughed out of the league. At any rate, the coach wants you to slide, when you just picked up the first and all. But they also want you to make first downs. And part of making first downs is hanging in when you know you're going to get hit.

 

The example of some idiot just walking down the street with money hanging out of his pockets doesn't seem a fair comparison to someone doing his job the way he's supposed to.

[stevegrab]

 

 

"He hit him illegally," Tomlin said of Harrison’s helmet-to-helmet hit on Cleveland quarterback Colt McCoy during Thursday’s game at Heinz Field. "He has to suffer the consequences."

He also made the statement that I mentioned, saying he hadn't done anything wrong since Nov 2010. And he had this "why you picking on my guys" look and attiutude about him. It was a TV interview, shown on my local news (WKYC). Not sure if I can find a reference to it.

 

I'm too busy being about what has come out now (see my new thread) where our bumbling organization finally admits they didn't test for a concussion, because he didn't exhibit any symptoms. Evidently the entire coaching and medical staff didn't see the hit, or him laying nearly motionless on the ground afterward. Oprahing pathetic.

[Dont Rookie Me........]

So I am curious did the helmet to helmet that Chris Gocong delivered to Mendenhall make you this upset?

 

and yes I would be ok with Ben being lit up for trying to make a play...have been for years.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Dont Rookie Me........