The country is broke, state and local govts broke

[borge007]

I was thinking about pensions being reduced rather than contributions increased. IMO, the system sucks and pensions should be eliminated over time.

 

In your last sentence, isn't that the same argument in principle that liberals use in favor of higher taxes?

Since public employees pay into those pensions, are you saying that all pensions(including private pensions for CEOs) should be eliminated over time?

[Ursa Majoris]

Since public employees pay into those pensions, are you saying that all pensions(including private pensions for CEOs) should be eliminated over time?

Yes, in effect. Pensions are obviously paid into but nowhere near long enough to cover the benefits coming out the other end. Some public employees can retire at 50. Similar longevity problem to social security. I think the whole concept of pensions needs to be eliminated so that the taxpayer isn't on the hook decades down the road. I'd rather everyone be responsible for their own retirement like the private sector. Side note: I'd also like to see the 401k conditions improved a lot.

 

In return for defined benefit pensions being eliminated over time, I'd like to see better wages for public employees, especially the joke numbers that the top end are paid. The list of district administrators in another thread, for instance - those numbers are way low in comparison with a similar position in the private sector.

[borge007]

Yes, in effect. Pensions are obviously paid into but nowhere near long enough to cover the benefits coming out the other end. Some public employees can retire at 50. Similar longevity problem to social security. I think the whole concept of pensions needs to be eliminated so that the taxpayer isn't on the hook decades down the road. I'd rather everyone be responsible for their own retirement like the private sector. Side note: I'd also like to see the 401k conditions improved a lot.

 

In return for defined benefit pensions being eliminated over time, I'd like to see better wages for public employees, especially the joke numbers that the top end are paid. The list of district administrators in another thread, for instance - those numbers are way low in comparison with a similar position in the private sector.

Makes sense. I think all of this needs to be negotiated, rather than dictated. Big difference!

[wiegie]

I don't think they should be immune. (And I'd also like to state for the record that I have had a pay freeze and that I am now paying a much greater share of my insurance than I used to. I'm not complaining as it was obvious that it was going to happen.)

isn't that all they're really asking the public employees in wisconsin to do?

here's your answer:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116519738.html

In fast-moving events Friday: Leaders of the state's biggest public worker unions said they would give in to the governor's demand for concessions on workers' benefits if Walker would give up his bid to repeal nearly all public union bargaining rights; Walker rejected that offer, saying government needed more flexibility in dealing with its employees; and the governor's address on the next two-year budget was delayed by a week.

[tosberg34]

here's your answer:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116519738.html

 

to add to that:

 

Walker said the collective bargaining changes were needed to give local governments and school districts the flexibility to deal with budget cuts he will outline in his two-year budget plan released on Feb. 22. Walker said those cuts will be more than $300 million.

[bpwallace49]

to add to that:

 

 

 

If that was true then he would have addressed the looming pension crisis for fire fighters and police as well. he didnt. He didnt do anything to those unions. If it was "all about the money" then there is absolutely no reason to not address those at the same time.

 

And that is a cowardly move by Walker

[tosberg34]

If that was true then he would have addressed the looming pension crisis for fire fighters and police as well. he didnt. He didnt do anything to those unions. If it was "all about the money" then there is absolutely no reason to not address those at the same time.

 

And that is a cowardly move by Walker

 

Nah. He's doing it piece by piece. There is no rule that says you have to do it all at once. Besides, the Police and Fire unions might be more willing to negotiate fairly after seeing what is going on now. It's going to pass because I think this has only made the resolve even stronger on the right.

 

I think he avoided the "public safety" unions because he didn't want to deal with them at the same time because he probably figured what's happening now is what WOULD happen. I don't think anything is as strong as the Teacher's union. The Police and Fire unions, from what I've read, aren't as strong and have mode more concessions over time than the other unions. With that said, I do believe they will be targeted too.

 

Besides, wasn't it your boy Obama who said:

 

Obama said he would consider the GOP ideas, but told the assembled Republicans that "elections have consequences" and "I won." Backed by the largest congressional majorities in decades, the president was not terribly interested in giving ground to his vanquished adversaries."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0102502408.html

 

So now the Left doesn't want to play ball? They want to run and hide. I didn't see any Republicans doing that during the last 2 years of Democratic control, did you?

Edited February 19, 2011 by tosberg34

[bpwallace49]

Nah. He's doing it piece by piece. There is no rule that says you have to do it all at once. Besides, the Police and Fire unions might be more willing to negotiate fairly after seeing what is going on now. It's going to pass because I think this has only made the resolve even stronger on the right.

 

I think he avoided the "public safety" unions because he didn't want to deal with them at the same time because he probably figured what's happening now is what WOULD happen. I don't think anything is as strong as the Teacher's union. The Police and Fire unions, from what I've read, aren't as strong and have mode more concessions over time than the other unions. With that said, I do believe they will be targeted too.

 

Besides, wasn't it your boy Obama who said:

 

"Obama said he would consider the GOP ideas, but told the assembled Republicans that "elections have consequences" and "I won." Backed by the largest congressional majorities in decades, the president was not terribly interested in giving ground to his vanquished adversaries."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0102502408.html

 

So now the Left doesn't want to play ball? They want to run and hide. I didn't see any Republicans doing that during the last 2 years of Democratic control, did you?

 

1.) I dont think you understand what I am saying. I am saying that if theya re a fiscal problem, then walker is a coward for doing them all at once. On one hand you praise the elimination of collective bargaining, yet he IS NOT taking that away from other unions. If they need to "remain flexible" then that should be across the board. Either there is a fiscal problem and pensions/ health care needs to be addressed for public unions, or there isnt. Cherry picking certain unions and not addressing others is foolish. he could eliminate collective bargaining across the board to "give municipalities more flexibility" but he didnt . . . that makes no sense. On the safety issue, he was going to call in the National Guard, so that is an empty justification.

 

2.) The left leaving in WI is the equivalant of using the filibuster for nonsense bills in teh Senate. So it is EXACTLY what the Republicans have done the last 2 years. It wasnt right for the last 2 years, and it isnt right now for the dems in WI to do so. 2 wrongs do not make a right.

[gbpfan1231]

Nah. He's doing it piece by piece. There is no rule that says you have to do it all at once. Besides, the Police and Fire unions might be more willing to negotiate fairly after seeing what is going on now. It's going to pass because I think this has only made the resolve even stronger on the right.

 

I think he avoided the "public safety" unions because he didn't want to deal with them at the same time because he probably figured what's happening now is what WOULD happen. I don't think anything is as strong as the Teacher's union. The Police and Fire unions, from what I've read, aren't as strong and have mode more concessions over time than the other unions. With that said, I do believe they will be targeted too.

 

Besides, wasn't it your boy Obama who said:

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0102502408.html

 

So now the Left doesn't want to play ball? They want to run and hide. I didn't see any Republicans doing that during the last 2 years of Democratic control, did you?

I am hoping you are correct and he is doing this piece by piece. I think he is.

[tosberg34]

1.) I dont think you understand what I am saying. I am saying that if theya re a fiscal problem, then walker is a coward for doing them all at once. On one hand you praise the elimination of collective bargaining, yet he IS NOT taking that away from other unions. If they need to "remain flexible" then that should be across the board. Either there is a fiscal problem and pensions/ health care needs to be addressed for public unions, or there isnt. Cherry picking certain unions and not addressing others is foolish. he could eliminate collective bargaining across the board to "give municipalities more flexibility" but he didnt . . . that makes no sense. On the safety issue, he was going to call in the National Guard, so that is an empty justification.

 

2.) The left leaving in WI is the equivalant of using the filibuster for nonsense bills in teh Senate. So it is EXACTLY what the Republicans have done the last 2 years. It wasnt right for the last 2 years, and it isnt right now for the dems in WI to do so. 2 wrongs do not make a right.

 

1) I think he will take it away eventually from them. However, I don't think he wanted to do the "public safety" unions because who would respond if these protesters start getting out of hand (I'm sure they will eventually - the left always does)? The National Guard can't handle ALL of the responsibility so whether he does them first or last it makes no difference - it will happen. That's not being a coward, its being smart.

 

2) Well, the Republicans were exercising a legitimate actions by Filibustering while the Dems are just running and hiding like a bunch of cowards. Do they both do the same thing? Sure. But does the ends really justify the means? I'd argue that running and hiding behind momma's skirt in IL (really? IL? With their corrupted politics?) and shirking responsibility - since that's what they are elected to do (vote) - is a lot more egregious than filibustering. I'd say this actually makes them look worse than they already are looking. In fact, I bet in the next election cycle you'll see these 14 cowards out of office - that's money in the bank!

[Ursa Majoris]

2) Well, the Republicans were exercising a legitimate actions by Filibustering while the Dems are just running and hiding like a bunch of cowards. Do they both do the same thing? Sure. But does the ends really justify the means? I'd argue that running and hiding behind momma's skirt in IL (really? IL? With their corrupted politics?) and shirking responsibility - since that's what they are elected to do (vote) - is a lot more egregious than filibustering. I'd say this actually makes them look worse than they already are looking. In fact, I bet in the next election cycle you'll see these 14 cowards out of office - that's money in the bank!

It is a legitimate action to deny a quorum too, which is what they were doing. It actually is the equivalent of a filibuster in that both are designed to deny a majority the ability to vote on legislation.

[tosberg34]

It is a legitimate action to deny a quorum too, which is what they were doing. It actually is the equivalent of a filibuster in that both are designed to deny a majority the ability to vote on legislation.

 

So the ends DOES justify the means? Then I guess you were ALL for the Iraq war!

 

Also, the filibuster is a legitimate procedural action. Running and hiding like cowards, shirking your responsibility and basically holding Democracy hostage when you're not in power is okay? But everyone HAS to follow the playbook when you ARE in power, right? Is THAT the democratic way? I think not - it's more the DEMOCRAT way.

 

Smacks of hypocrisy.

Edited February 20, 2011 by tosberg34

[gbpfan1231]

It is a legitimate action to deny a quorum too, which is what they were doing. It actually is the equivalent of a filibuster in that both are designed to deny a majority the ability to vote on legislation.

I am pretty sure what these Dems are doing is actually illegal. I don't believe what the repubs did was illegal.

 

I have heard more than once that what they are doing is actually illegal but in essence their is no real consequence to the law but it is still technically illegal.

[gbpfan1231]

So the ends DOES justify the means? Then I guess you were ALL for the Iraq war!

 

Also, the filibuster is a legitimate procedural action. Running and hiding like cowards, shirking your responsibility and basically holding Democracy hostage when you're not in power is okay? But everyone HAS to follow the playbook when you ARE in power, right? Is THAT the democratic way? I think not - it's more the DEMOCRAT way.

 

Smacks of hypocrisy.

Everything these people are doing is hypocritical.

 

Calling Walker Hitler

getting in the face and screaming at Walker supporters

Dems walking out

 

If it is the tea party doing this they are evil racists but when it is the liberals it is "peaceful protesting for the people"

[tosberg34]

Everything these people are doing is hypocritical.

 

Calling Walker Hitler

getting in the face and screaming at Walker supporters

Dems walking out

 

If it is the tea party doing this they are evil racists but when it is the liberals it is "peaceful protesting for the people"

 

I can't wait until the next election cycle and watch all these cowards booted out of office. We can only hope.

[Ground Chuck]

I am a Wisconsin teacher. I haven't walked off the job, nor have I been to Madison. I am in the 13th year of my employment, I make $51,000 per year, and all of my benefits are worth $31,000. I hold my masters plus 12 credits.

 

Look, every teacher I work with is willing to take Walker's cuts. That is not the issue here. By taking away the majority of our bargaining rights, Walker allows local school boards the ability to balance the budgets any way they see fit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or teacher) to understand that Walker will underfund education again in the future. When he underfunds education, school boards will be left with few options. They will be forced to make even deeper cuts. According to Walker himself, public employees can expect around an 8% decrease in salary to keep the same benefits in 2011. How much more will we be expected to give up in 2012? 2013?

 

Wisconsin is expected to have a 3.6 billion dollar budget shortfall in the next few years. This budget only addresses a small part of that 3.6 billion. Walker has stated repeatedly that tax increases won't be on the table, so future cuts are the only option.

 

In addition, there is language in the bill that introduces a study of the feasibility of 401K plans replacing pensions for state and local employees.

 

Walker did run on the promise of cutting spending, but not once did he state anything about ending collective bargaining if elected. He has lost trust because of that. That is why you are seeing what you are seeing in Madison.

 

Milwaukee Public Schools are the problem. Chronic student absenteeism is causing abysmal test scores. Something like 30% of all MPS students are defined as chronically absent. To combat these low test scores, Wisconsin throws money at programs that continually fail to improve student attendance and test scores at MPS. My district's yearly budget is just north of $9,000,000 and our cost per student is roughly $6500. In MPS the budget is around $900,000,000 and the cost per student is nearly double my district at $12,500 per student. Once in a epic FAIL moment, the MPS board approved an idea to give away Ipods to students that attended the breakfast program as a last ditch attempt to improve attendance.

 

Just my two cents. Hope this ends well. The longer this goes on the uglier it's gonna get IMHO.

[tosberg34]

I am a Wisconsin teacher. I haven't walked off the job, nor have I been to Madison. I am in the 13th year of my employment, I make $51,000 per year, and all of my benefits are worth $31,000. I hold my masters plus 12 credits.

 

Look, every teacher I work with is willing to take Walker's cuts. That is not the issue here. By taking away the majority of our bargaining rights, Walker allows local school boards the ability to balance the budgets any way they see fit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or teacher) to understand that Walker will underfund education again in the future. When he underfunds education, school boards will be left with few options. They will be forced to make even deeper cuts. According to Walker himself, public employees can expect around an 8% decrease in salary to keep the same benefits in 2011. How much more will we be expected to give up in 2012? 2013?

 

Wisconsin is expected to have a 3.6 billion dollar budget shortfall in the next few years. This budget only addresses a small part of that 3.6 billion. Walker has stated repeatedly that tax increases won't be on the table, so future cuts are the only option.

 

In addition, there is language in the bill that introduces a study of the feasibility of 401K plans replacing pensions for state and local employees.

 

Walker did run on the promise of cutting spending, but not once did he state anything about ending collective bargaining if elected. He has lost trust because of that. That is why you are seeing what you are seeing in Madison.

 

Milwaukee Public Schools are the problem. Chronic student absenteeism is causing abysmal test scores. Something like 30% of all MPS students are defined as chronically absent. To combat these low test scores, Wisconsin throws money at programs that continually fail to improve student attendance and test scores at MPS. My district's yearly budget is just north of $9,000,000 and our cost per student is roughly $6500. In MPS the budget is around $900,000,000 and the cost per student is nearly double my district at $12,500 per student. Once in a epic FAIL moment, the MPS board approved an idea to give away Ipods to students that attended the breakfast program as a last ditch attempt to improve attendance.

 

Just my two cents. Hope this ends well. The longer this goes on the uglier it's gonna get IMHO.

 

Thanks for not walking off of the job, GC! However, I have one question for you and I don't mean to be disrespectful: Why do you need a union? 93% of Americans don't have one - I don't have one - and I'm able to negotiate my own salary and benefits on my own. If I don't like them, I take my services elsewhere.

 

The larger point I'm making is that I think you'll be just fine without a union - or at least a choice NOT to be in one - and all of this rhetoric from the left is nothing more than scare tactics. Everyone is afraid of the unknown, I guess, but is it that scary to think you're sunk without a union? I was in one for 13 years (UFCW Local 1444) and when I left it for a better job I didn't look back. I survived and so can you and all the others.

 

I actually think that unions keep good people down.

 

Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

Edited February 20, 2011 by tosberg34

[bushwacked]

I am a Wisconsin teacher. I haven't walked off the job, nor have I been to Madison. I am in the 13th year of my employment, I make $51,000 per year, and all of my benefits are worth $31,000. I hold my masters plus 12 credits.

 

Look, every teacher I work with is willing to take Walker's cuts. That is not the issue here. By taking away the majority of our bargaining rights, Walker allows local school boards the ability to balance the budgets any way they see fit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or teacher) to understand that Walker will underfund education again in the future. When he underfunds education, school boards will be left with few options. They will be forced to make even deeper cuts. According to Walker himself, public employees can expect around an 8% decrease in salary to keep the same benefits in 2011. How much more will we be expected to give up in 2012? 2013?

 

Wisconsin is expected to have a 3.6 billion dollar budget shortfall in the next few years. This budget only addresses a small part of that 3.6 billion. Walker has stated repeatedly that tax increases won't be on the table, so future cuts are the only option.

 

In addition, there is language in the bill that introduces a study of the feasibility of 401K plans replacing pensions for state and local employees.

 

Walker did run on the promise of cutting spending, but not once did he state anything about ending collective bargaining if elected. He has lost trust because of that. That is why you are seeing what you are seeing in Madison.

 

Milwaukee Public Schools are the problem. Chronic student absenteeism is causing abysmal test scores. Something like 30% of all MPS students are defined as chronically absent. To combat these low test scores, Wisconsin throws money at programs that continually fail to improve student attendance and test scores at MPS. My district's yearly budget is just north of $9,000,000 and our cost per student is roughly $6500. In MPS the budget is around $900,000,000 and the cost per student is nearly double my district at $12,500 per student. Once in a epic FAIL moment, the MPS board approved an idea to give away Ipods to students that attended the breakfast program as a last ditch attempt to improve attendance.

 

Just my two cents. Hope this ends well. The longer this goes on the uglier it's gonna get IMHO.

 

Best of luck. You are living it and there are a bunch of wannabe posers thinking they know something.

[tosberg34]

Best of luck. You are living it and there are a bunch of wannabe posers thinking they know something.

 

Kind of hard on yourself, aren't you?

[bushwacked]

Kind of hard on yourself, aren't you?

 

Tell me my thoughts on this thread retard.

[SEC=UGA]

I am a Wisconsin teacher. I haven't walked off the job, nor have I been to Madison. I am in the 13th year of my employment, I make $51,000 per year, and all of my benefits are worth $31,000. I hold my masters plus 12 credits.

 

Look, every teacher I work with is willing to take Walker's cuts. That is not the issue here. By taking away the majority of our bargaining rights, Walker allows local school boards the ability to balance the budgets any way they see fit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or teacher) to understand that Walker will underfund education again in the future. When he underfunds education, school boards will be left with few options. They will be forced to make even deeper cuts. According to Walker himself, public employees can expect around an 8% decrease in salary to keep the same benefits in 2011. How much more will we be expected to give up in 2012? 2013?

 

Wisconsin is expected to have a 3.6 billion dollar budget shortfall in the next few years. This budget only addresses a small part of that 3.6 billion. Walker has stated repeatedly that tax increases won't be on the table, so future cuts are the only option.

 

In addition, there is language in the bill that introduces a study of the feasibility of 401K plans replacing pensions for state and local employees.

 

Walker did run on the promise of cutting spending, but not once did he state anything about ending collective bargaining if elected. He has lost trust because of that. That is why you are seeing what you are seeing in Madison.

 

Milwaukee Public Schools are the problem. Chronic student absenteeism is causing abysmal test scores. Something like 30% of all MPS students are defined as chronically absent. To combat these low test scores, Wisconsin throws money at programs that continually fail to improve student attendance and test scores at MPS. My district's yearly budget is just north of $9,000,000 and our cost per student is roughly $6500. In MPS the budget is around $900,000,000 and the cost per student is nearly double my district at $12,500 per student. Once in a epic FAIL moment, the MPS board approved an idea to give away Ipods to students that attended the breakfast program as a last ditch attempt to improve attendance.

 

Just my two cents. Hope this ends well. The longer this goes on the uglier it's gonna get IMHO.

 

 

At one point you say you are concerned as the government will again "underfund education". You then go on to state that in a district that gets twice the per pupil funding test scores, attendance, etc... are abysmal. Just thought it was interesting.

 

ETA: I many developing nations around the world, education is underfunded and they are kicking our collective asses on standardized test scores. Is it our system, our parents, the students, society at large, or the fact that teachers would rather strike than explain what is going on to their classes?

Edited February 20, 2011 by SEC=UGA

[tosberg34]

Tell me my thoughts on this thread retard.

 

Nasty, bitter and old you are. Your thoughts are whatever your liberal masters tell you to think. I'm sure i could just rip them from the headlines for you if you'd like.

[Ground Chuck]

Thanks for not walking off of the job, GC! However, I have one question for you and I don't mean to be disrespectful: Why do you need a union? 93% of Americans don't have one - I don't have one - and I'm able to negotiate my own salary and benefits on my own. If I don't like them, I take my services elsewhere.

 

The larger point I'm making is that I think you'll be just fine without a union - or at least a choice NOT to be in one - and all of this rhetoric from the left is nothing more than scare tactics. Everyone is afraid of the unknown, I guess, but is it that scary to think you're sunk without a union? I was in one for 13 years (UFCW Local 1444) and when I left it for a better job I didn't look back. I survived and so can you and all the others.

 

I actually think that unions keep good people down.

 

Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

 

A fair question. It's not disrespectful.

 

My answer.

 

I don't trust school boards to do the right thing. I was on a hiring committee about 5 years ago when we were looking for a 6th grade teacher with a science background. We narrowed it down to two finalists, but one was head and shoulders above the other. Candidate A had eight years of experience in the Greenfield School District, held her master's, had a great science background, and knocked it out of the park with her interview. Candidate B was a new grad from UW-Whitewater, solid interview. All of us on the committee chose A. My principal informed all of us that the board would never approve A because she was too expensive. Her salary would have been in the neighborhood of $45,000. Candidate B would be starting at 28,000. He was right, the board refused candidate A. With our hands tied, we hired B. (Just so you know, B called in sick Thurs. and Fri. protesting in Madison). I have heard this stories like this time and again throughout Waukesha and Jefferson counties.

 

Without union protection, boards will have unlimited power to impose their will. This truly is scary. It's not just salary and bennies either. Rules governing sick time carryover, prep time, and credit for licensure repayment would be fair game as well. As I illustrated in the prior example, many board members are not looking out for the students that their electorate are raising.

 

I wish it were as easy for me to go somewhere where the grass is greener, but I love Wisconsin and have roots here. Every public district is in the same boat and I am a expensive and unlikely option (with that damn master's) were I to try and teach somewhere else in the state. When I started at a private grade school in Racine county I made 16,700 as a rookie and got a $900 stipend for health insurance, which I'm sure I blew on beer. So I think private school is out as well.

 

I believe Walker is stripping power to make it easier for boards to cut teacher pensions and health insurance in successive budgets. He knows that he needs to cut even more down the road to balance that 3.6 billion in upcoming years. WEAC has stated that they will take his cuts this year. If Walker asks them to take ANY cut again in 2012 they won't and they will have the public in their corner because no one will forget this mess. This way he can circumvent WEAC and give school districts less state aid. This will leave the burden on the school boards to balance the books.

 

I'm not a fan of everything the union does, but to me they are a necessary evil.

 

Thank you for the thanks,

[bushwacked]

Nasty, bitter and old you are.

 

Yer a failed Yoda.

 

I'm not really interested on taking sides on this thread for a number of reasons. And there has been a lot of good discourse.

Edited February 20, 2011 by bushwacked

[tosberg34]

Yer a failed Soda.

 

I'm not really interested on taking sides on this thread for a number of reasons. And there has been a lot of good discourse on it anyway.

 

What's a failed Soda? Pepsi One? Never been called that before.