Vick flying under the radar

[Bill Swerski]

Two great defenses down...many to go...

 

 

The Bucs and Panthers may have had "great defenses" in the past, but they're not at that level this season.

[kerwin8]

ATL's offense has never ranked in the Top 10 in points scored since Vick has been in town, despite the stellar running game.

 

The Falcons offense has been ranked 12th, 20th, and 14th in points scored when Vick has played a full season.

 

Nor would I expect them to be in the top 10 in points scored. The great thing about a running game is that you can get yourself a small lead, then take huge chunks off the clock so other teams hardly have a chance to come back. You can throw out all the stats you want, but based on all the variations of game plans and strategies, none of them will accurately measure a QBs success. Passer rating doesn't do Vick any justice whatsoever, wins/losses aren't necessarily a QBs doing, etc.

 

So, the Ravens wouldn't have won with, say, Jake Plummer or some other mediocre QB behind center with THAT defense? Or are you trying to argue that Trent Dilfer is somehow comparable to Vick?

 

When did I ever claim that Archie Manning was a prolific passer? The one thing that I can say about these two is that Vick played on much better teams than Archie.

 

So, somehow everything that goes wrong with the Falcons' offense is completely Michael Vick's fault, but you think Archie Manning's team had everything to do with the problems in NO? That hardly seems fair. You also point to the Falcons never breaking the top 10 in total offense as evidence that Michael Vick is a bad QB, but you call Jake Plummer a mediocre QB, when HIS team's offense finished in the top 5 last season.

 

You're contradicting yourself. You're pointing out certain stats for the Falcons entire team as 'proof' that defenses are stopping Vick, and that is absolutely not the case.

 

He's in his freaking SIXTH season in the pros! McNabb was a prolific passer AND scrambler in his SECOND year in the league, and he did it with even less talent at WR and a much weaker running game. Oh, and he had Andy Reid's complex, pass-heavy offense down by then.

 

1. He's only in his third year in the West Coast Offense. It wasn't until Hasselbeck's third year in the WCO that he did anything of significance. Hell, it even took Steve Young a good number of years to get it right.

 

2. Donovan McNabb is one of the league's best passers. Yeah, he's a much better passer than Vick. He's better than a hell of a lot of other QBs in the NFL, too. You can't possibly be saying that you think teams are stopping Vick because he isn't passing as well as McNabb.

 

 

Vick has never thrown for 3,000 yds, has a career completion percentage of 54.1, and a TD:INT ratio of 1.35. Opposing defenses sure as hell have stopped Vick through the air.

 

Truth: 2,936 yards is not 3,000.

Truth: Teams have stopped Michael Vick through the air. He throws a lot of interceptions. He doesn't completed a high percentage of his passes.

 

Unfortunately, "through the air" is not the same thing as "for years", like you originally stated. Vick has all-around bad games, just like any other QB. That doesn't exactly translate to match your argument. You're coming up with some great numbers and rankings, but none of them are evidence that Vick has been consistently stopped by any defense.

 

And despite what Vick/Dunn/Duckett have done on the ground, it hasn't translated into an "elite" high-scoring offense. So, yes, opposing defenses have "stopped" the Falcons offense as well.

 

I already brought up your "points scored" argument. That doesn't tell the story of an offense. The Falcons passing game has been flat-out bad in recent years. They show up to games with the intention of running the ball, and they succeed in rushing for more yards than 31 other teams in the NFL for two straight years when defenses come into every single game knowing exactly what the game plan is. Everyone knows they're going to run the ball, and yet nobody does anything about it. You call that stopping the Falcons offense? Finishing, on average, 15th in TOTAL yards out of 32 teams is being "stopped"? I'd hate to know how critical you are of offenses that finish in the bottom half, like Tampa and Carolina last year.

 

 

 

Man, here I was making a point about how undervalued Vick was as a FANTASY QB this year (and trying to brag about grabbing him on a couple of teams), and YOU guys had to go and make this the trite "Vick is overrated" thread.

 

Sorry

 

So far, Vick was very undervalued as a fantasy QB this year. BUT, he's got a long road ahead of him with a lot of tough defenses to face. He has a number of good fantasy games every year. He does look a lot better in games, and he's making much better decisions so far. Regardless, he was a steal at the spot you probably got him. However, I think the owners of Mr. McNabb are probably doing rather well for themselves, too...

[TheGrunt]

Truth: 2,936 yards is not 3,000.

Truth: Teams have stopped Michael Vick through the air. He throws a lot of interceptions. He doesn't completed a high percentage of his passes.

 

Truth: I believe it was two years ago that Joey Harrington had a little over 3,000 yards and many touted him as having a great year (or up-and-coming career)

Truth: Harrington didn't have the running stats to go along with the nearly 3000 yards passing, as does Vick every single year.

Truth: Vick is a great QB, who brings a lot to the game that other quarterbacks simply cannot do.

Truth: Bringing up Harrington in this argument is an embarrasment to all good/great/consistent QB's. I should be ashamed.

 

The Falcons will have their naysayer's, however, I'm with you on this one. The Falcons finally have the defense needed to keep the Falcons rush offense on the field so that they can run-down the clock (as you mentioned is part of their excellent strategy).

 

This Monday Night is going to be an awesome matchup between the Saints and Falcons! Can't wait...

[Bill Swerski]

Nor would I expect them to be in the top 10 in points scored. The great thing about a running game is that you can get yourself a small lead, then take huge chunks off the clock so other teams hardly have a chance to come back. You can throw out all the stats you want, but based on all the variations of game plans and strategies, none of them will accurately measure a QBs success. Passer rating doesn't do Vick any justice whatsoever, wins/losses aren't necessarily a QBs doing, etc.

 

So, since no stats can accurately measure QB success, we should dismiss them all?

 

So, somehow everything that goes wrong with the Falcons' offense is completely Michael Vick's fault, but you think Archie Manning's team had everything to do with the problems in NO? That hardly seems fair.

 

Oh, certainly not. But his Saints teams were overwhelmingly bad on defense and struggled to run the ball at times. I'm not arguing that Archie was a proficient passer or anything, but his Saints teams were MUCH worse than Vick's Falcons teams.

 

You also point to the Falcons never breaking the top 10 in total offense as evidence that Michael Vick is a bad QB, but you call Jake Plummer a mediocre QB, when HIS team's offense finished in the top 5 last season.

 

Jake Plummer IS a mediocre QB... but he's still a much better passer than Vick. The '04-'05 Broncos are very similar to the Vick-era Falcons teams. The difference in offensive output is due to the fact that Jake can actually throw for 3,000-4000 yds and 20+ TDs.

 

You're contradicting yourself. You're pointing out certain stats for the Falcons entire team as 'proof' that defenses are stopping Vick, and that is absolutely not the case.

 

Since Vick's never actually lead an elite offense, you're dead wrong. They ARE stopping him.

 

1. He's only in his third year in the West Coast Offense. It wasn't until Hasselbeck's third year in the WCO that he did anything of significance. Hell, it even took Steve Young a good number of years to get it right.

 

I'm so sick of this stupid argument. Do you Vick apologists even know what the WCO is? By Bill Walsh's definition, the WCO was designed to replace running plays with short passes (mainly to take pressure off of the QB on 3rd down). Given that the Falcons have been at or near the top of the league in rushing in the Vick era and ranked 27th, 31st, and 26th in pass attempts during Vick's full seasons, it should be very clear that THE FALCONS DON'T RUN A TRUE WCO. They run ELEMENTS of the WCO, but comparing what Vick has had to learn with what Steve Young, Matt Hasselbeck, or Donovan McNabb had to learn is completely asinine.

 

The Falcons passing game has been flat-out bad in recent years. They show up to games with the intention of running the ball, and they succeed in rushing for more yards than 31 other teams in the NFL for two straight years when defenses come into every single game knowing exactly what the game plan is. Everyone knows they're going to run the ball, and yet nobody does anything about it. You call that stopping the Falcons offense?

 

No, I call the Falcons offense consistently failing to rank in the Top 10 in yards or points "stopping the Falcons offense."

[Big Score 1]

Um, you forgot about the the '98 Broncos, the '96 Packers, and the '94 49ers, and the '92/'93 Cowboys, to name a just few. Also remember that the late, geat Walter Payton got stuffed by the Pats in SB 20 and McMahon ended up throwing for over 250 yds.

Ummm...No...I didn't.

 

TO ME, the most dominant, one sided Superbowls, are the ones I've mentioned.

 

You may think otherwise...I don't.

[fruhoff]

EXACTLY. Thank you for understanding.

 

Now, Mr. Vick needs to be there for my fantasy playoffs.

 

 

 

For all those naysayers....most of us are here for fantasy....currently Vick is #2 in most leagues...enough hypothetical future say...presently #2...can't argue with that...

 

...the "bargain" pick of fantasy football right now!!...

[kerwin8]

For all those naysayers....most of us are here for fantasy....currently Vick is #2 in most leagues...enough hypothetical future say...presently #2...can't argue with that...

 

...the "bargain" pick of fantasy football right now!!...

 

 

I would say he was more of a bargain about two weeks ago. Right now, he's more of a sell-high candidate.

[Chavez]

Chavez,

I said TO ME, those are the two teams, that have put on two of the most DOMINANT SUPERBOWLS that I've ever seen.

 

Now that I really think about it, the Steve Young led 49er's pasting of the Chargers, (won a TON of money on that game) is another.

 

Those would be my Top 3 Superbowl dominations.

 

Your phrasing left that open to interpretation.

[Big Score 1]

Your phrasing left that open to interpretation.

 

to me, the two most dominant Superbowl winners over the past 20 odd years, were the Ravens & '85 Bears. Neither of those teams can be confused with having a "solid balanaced attack".

 

[Chavez]

to me, the two most dominant Superbowl winners over the past 20 odd years, were the Ravens & '85 Bears. Neither of those teams can be confused with having a "solid balanaced attack".

 

When I think "Superbowl winner" I think the team over the length of the season; now if you'd said the two most dominant Superbowl PERFORMANCES or WINS, it would have eliminated the confusion.

 

 

And I think it's two words - Super Bowl - since we're parsing here.

[LooGie]

You would characterize Chicago's offense under Orton as a "success" last season? I don't know what team you were watching....

 

They won like 8 straight games...sometimes I just can't tell if you're joking or not, so if you were being sarcastic, sorry for replying here. Sarcasm would make SO MUCH more sense, but I dont think i can give you that kind of credit

 

 

The Falcons offense has been ranked 12th, 20th, and 14th in points scored when Vick has played a full season. Vick has never thrown for 3,000 yds, has a career completion percentage of 54.1, and a TD:INT ratio of 1.35. Opposing defenses sure as hell have stopped Vick through the air. And despite what Vick/Dunn/Duckett have done on the ground, it hasn't translated into an "elite" high-scoring offense. So, yes, opposing defenses have "stopped" the Falcons offense as well.

 

That is NOT opposing DEF stopping him. That's Vick not being a complete QB. You know it, I know it, EVERYONE except Vick knows he's not a complete QB. That's not stopping him, that's him.

 

The Falcons do a great job of running the ball. Nobody's arguing against that. But their offense is LESS EFFECTIVE than others that can run AND pass the ball proficiently. I'll take the Seahawks or Bengals offense over Atlanta's any day.

 

no you wouldn't. You'd take the ATL offense ANY DAY OF THE WEEK OVER ANY OTHER OFFENSE IN HISTORY if you could get Vick with a Dan Marino or Peyton Manning arm. Again, it goes back to Vick "containing" himself.

[Big Score 1]

When I think "Superbowl winner" I think the team over the length of the season; now if you'd said the two most dominant Superbowl PERFORMANCES or WINS, it would have eliminated the confusion.

And I think it's two words - Super Bowl - since we're parsing here.

 

Ahhhhh Gotcha!

 

IF McNabb plays for the Championship again, would Souper Bowl be appropriate?

[Bill Swerski]

no you wouldn't. You'd take the ATL offense ANY DAY OF THE WEEK OVER ANY OTHER OFFENSE IN HISTORY if you could get Vick with a Dan Marino or Peyton Manning arm. Again, it goes back to Vick "containing" himself.

 

But since Vick DOESN'T HAVE Dan Marino or Peyton Manning's accuracy, vision, or ability to read defenses, your argument is pointless. I would've taken the 2005 Colts over any other team last year IF THEIR OFFENSIVE LINE COULD'VE PASS-BLOCKED EFFECTIVELY.

 

I would take the Sehawks, Bengals, or Edgerrin-era Colts offenses over the Vick-lead Falcons offense, which heavily relies on a dominating defense to hold leads.

[kerwin8]

But since Vick DOESN'T HAVE Dan Marino or Peyton Manning's accuracy, vision, or ability to read defenses, your argument is pointless. I would've taken the 2005 Colts over any other team last year IF THEIR OFFENSIVE LINE COULD'VE PASS-BLOCKED EFFECTIVELY.

 

I would take the Sehawks, Bengals, or Edgerrin-era Colts offenses over the Vick-lead Falcons offense, which heavily relies on a dominating defense to hold leads.

 

 

I would take the 2004 Cleveland Browns offense if they could've completed every pass and never had anybody tackled in the backfield. Hands down.

[Chavez]

IF McNabb plays for the Championship again, would Souper Bowl be appropriate?

 

Boo hiss.

[Chavez]

You'd take the ATL offense ANY DAY OF THE WEEK OVER ANY OTHER OFFENSE IN HISTORY if you could get Vick with a Dan Marino or Peyton Manning arm.

 

Vick has an arm equal to Marino's and easily superior to Manning's.

 

It's above the neck that the problem most likely lies.

[TheGrunt]

But since Vick DOESN'T HAVE Dan Marino or Peyton Manning's accuracy, vision, or ability to read defenses, your argument is pointless. I would've taken the 2005 Colts over any other team last year IF THEIR OFFENSIVE LINE COULD'VE PASS-BLOCKED EFFECTIVELY.

 

I would take the Sehawks, Bengals, or Edgerrin-era Colts offenses over the Vick-lead Falcons offense, which heavily relies on a dominating defense to hold leads.

 

I'll raise you one and take Joe Montana and Jerry Rice all the way to the SuperBowl. I miss Jerry Rice... if he knew me I bet we could be best friends...

Edited September 23, 2006 by TheGrunt

[LooGie]

I'll raise you one and take Joe Montana and Jerry Rice all the way to the SuperBowl. I miss Jerry Rice... if he knew me I bet we could be best friends...

 

A match made in heaven.

 

See if he's got a MySpace, and let him know you're available

[LooGie]

But since Vick DOESN'T HAVE Dan Marino or Peyton Manning's accuracy, vision, or ability to read defenses, your argument is pointless. I would've taken the 2005 Colts over any other team last year IF THEIR OFFENSIVE LINE COULD'VE PASS-BLOCKED EFFECTIVELY.

 

I would take the Sehawks, Bengals, or Edgerrin-era Colts offenses over the Vick-lead Falcons offense, which heavily relies on a dominating defense to hold leads.

 

 

Bill. My point IS that you're making all these points about how Vick is containable and their offense is lackluster and quite easy to stop and defenses stop it all the time and it's easy to stop a run first offense.

It's not, that's why ATL leads the NFL in rushing.

It's easy to BEAT ATL, but not because of the offense.

 

What I'm saying is the offense, that is based on Vick's ability to run is one of the most dynamic and HARDEST to stop in the NFL. It cannot be SHUT DOWN.

the only thing going for the rest of the NFL is that Vick doesn't have the ability to make beautiful pass plays. But that doesn't mean the ATL offense is getting shut down, due to schemes and game planning. it means they're getting beaten because Vick is 1 dimensional. Maybe 1 1/2 dimensional.

 

So when you said you'd take your pick of offenses, I simply called your bluff. You would take ATL OFFENSE with a better throwing QB.

 

If we're talking HERE AND NOW offensive TEAMS (not just offensive SCHEMES), then sure, I'd take any of the teams with the stereotypical QB. ATL just might have the PERFECT offensive scheme. Trouble is, there's no QBs capable of running it perfectly.

[WaterMan]

The Bucs and Panthers may have had "great defenses" in the past, but they're not at that level this season.

 

 

One day those defenses may be as good as the Colts.

[Bill Swerski]

Bill. My point IS that you're making all these points about how Vick is containable and their offense is lackluster and quite easy to stop and defenses stop it all the time and it's easy to stop a run first offense.

 

It's not that difficult for GOOD DEFENSES to stop Atlanta's one-dimensional, run-only offense. Mediocre and poor defenses will, of course, get run the f over.

 

It's easy to BEAT ATL, but not because of the offense.

 

LOL, so it's Atlanta's defense that's causing them to lose games? Certianly not this season. They have one of the best units in the league. Or are you arguing that their special teams is causing them to lose games?

 

What I'm saying is the offense, that is based on Vick's ability to run is one of the most dynamic and HARDEST to stop in the NFL. It cannot be SHUT DOWN. the only thing going for the rest of the NFL is that Vick doesn't have the ability to make beautiful pass plays. But that doesn't mean the ATL offense is getting shut down, due to schemes and game planning. it means they're getting beaten because Vick is 1 dimensional. Maybe 1 1/2 dimensional

 

Apparently you missed the game against the Bears last December, where the "unstoppable" Falcons offense only managed to score 3 points.

 

So when you said you'd take your pick of offenses, I simply called your bluff. You would take ATL OFFENSE with a better throwing QB.

 

If we're talking about hypothetical offenses, I would take the '02 Chiefs offensive line, Walter Payton at halfback, Larry Czonka at FB, Dan Marino at QB, Tony Gonzalez at TE, Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison as my wideouts, and Mike Holmgren's playbook over the "Atlanta offense with a better throwing QB."

 

If we're talking HERE AND NOW offensive TEAMS (not just offensive SCHEMES), then sure, I'd take any of the teams with the stereotypical QB. ATL just might have the PERFECT offensive scheme. Trouble is, there's no QBs capable of running it perfectly.

 

Atlanta's offensive scheme isn't that unique and is only as good as its players. A few injuries to the O-line or injuries to Dunn and Norwood would destroy their ability to control the line of scrimmage, instantly transforming them to an average or below-average offense.

Edited September 23, 2006 by Bill Swerski

[Big Score 1]

It's not that difficult for GOOD DEFENSES to stop Atlanta's one-dimensional, run-only offense. Mediocre and poor defenses will, of course, get run the f over.

Unless they've only been playing mediocre to poor defenses for the last two years & counting, where they've had the NFL's #1 Rushing Offense, then what you say above obviously is not true.

LOL, so it's Atlanta's defense that's causing them to lose games? Certianly not this season. They have one of the best units in the league. Or are you arguing that their special teams is causing them to lose games?

Atlanta's D is back to being good again this year, but last year (as you well know) their D ranked in the low 20's overall & their Run D was in the high 20's. 2004 was also a decent D & Atlanta was a game away from the Super Bowl.

Atlanta's offensive scheme isn't that unique and is only as good as its players.

It's not that unique huh?

Ok....so who else in the NFL is running the Shotgun Option?

NOBODY!!!

Who else in the NFL has the personell even capable of running the Shotgun Option?

NOBODY!!!

A few injuries to the O-line or injuries to Dunn and Norwood would destroy their ability to control the line of scrimmage, instantly transforming them to an average or below-average offense.

 

Well duh!. The same can be said for any NFL team that loses key players to it's offense.

[Bill Swerski]

Unless they've only been playing mediocre to poor defenses for the last two years & counting, where they've had the NFL's #1 Rushing Offense, then what you say above obviously is not true.

 

Considering that they're ranking in the middle of the pack in total offense and points scored consistently, you're wrong.

 

Atlanta's D is back to being good again this year, but last year (as you well know) their D ranked in the low 20's overall & their Run D was in the high 20's. 2004 was also a decent D & Atlanta was a game away from the Super Bowl.

 

Yep, the defense was not that good last season and was only decent in '04 WHEN COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE LEAGUE. But they were 6th overall in yds and points allowed in a really bad NFC. The fact that a good-but-not-great Falcons team made it to the '04 NFC Championship Game is more of a reflection of the sad state of the NFC that year than the product of a supposedly "dominant" Falcons offense.

 

It's not that unique huh?

Ok....so who else in the NFL is running the Shotgun Option?

NOBODY!!!

Who else in the NFL has the personell even capable of running the Shotgun Option?

NOBODY!!!

 

OK, so how many COLLEGE teams run the shotgun option?

QUITE A FEW!!!

Therefore, it's NOT A UNIQUE OFFENSE. Get it now?

[CD6405]

Peyton Manning in the shotgun option = unstoppable.

[Bill Swerski]

Peyton Manning in the shotgun option = unstoppable. torn ACL

 

 

Fixed