Savage Beatings Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Not really a bible question, but the answer is actually fairly simple. God wanted to create a being that could choose to love (to love Him and each other). Without the free will to choose, then love loses it's depth and meaning. With that in mind, just because God can know what we will do, does not mean that He forces our hand. Could He have created a clockwork universe which HAS to follow His will? Presumably, yes. Are we in such a universe? Presumably, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 (edited) I would posit that it's more of a warped perception of man thing. You're attempting to define God as a personification of your experiences. Or to put it simply, man created god in his own image. By doing so, you've automatically cast this god or goddess into a mold that contains human frailities, thought patterns, and ideas of what constitutes logical. If instead you view the laws that we understand as calculus and chemistry and physics and the rules by which this universe we live in exist as this god or goddess, then you can logically reconcile this question. Free will exists becuse it this god or goddess is not the omnificient being we cast him as in the human mold, but the guiding force of the universe which we are governed by, but not fated by. This viewpoint does have the rather unpleasant side effect of removing the concepts of heaven and hell and the afterlife as well as forces us to accept responsibility for our daily actions; tools western religious ideology has used to browbeat its followers into certain proscribed behavior patterns for centuries now. Edited April 9, 2007 by Kid Cid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I would posit that it's more of a warped perception of man thing. You're attempting to define God as a personification of your experiences. Or to put it simply, man created god in his own image. By doing so, you've automatically cast this god or goddess into a mold that contains human frailities, thought patterns, and ideas of what constitutes logical. If instead you view the laws that we understand as calculus and chemistry and physics and the rules by whihc this universe we live in exist as this god or goddess, then you can logically reconcile this question. Free will exists becuse it this god or goddess is not the omnificient being we cast him as in the human mold, but the guiding force of the unives which we are governed by, but not fated by. This viewpoint does have the rather unpleasant side effect of removing our concepts of heaven and hell and the afterlife as well as forces us to accept responsibility for our daily actions; tools western religious ideology has used to browbeat its followers into certain proscribed behavior patterns for centuries now. How can you assume that any god is bound by the laws of the universe as we know them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 How can you assume that any god is bound by the laws of the universe as we know them? I'm not assuming that any god is bound by any laws, I'm putting forth that the laws themselves constitute this "god", effectively recasting the image of this "being". All the other things are window dressing that man has placed on his lack of understanding. A feeble (IMO) attempt to logically explain a concept that cannot be logically defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Its magic. Next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I'm not assuming that any god is bound by any laws, I'm putting forth that the laws themselves constitute this "god", effectively recasting the image of this "being". All the other things are window dressing that man has placed on his lack of understanding. A feeble (IMO) attempt to logically explain a concept that cannot be logically defined. Ah ... I see ... you are in essense arguing that there is no god (de-personifying) but rather the existence of a set of circumstances/laws that resulted in the creation of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I agree in large part with this ... For me it is quite simple , free will is the ability to choose to do good and what's right vs doing what's wrong ...and I believe God has paths for us , he knows the path , but we have the choice of which path to eventually walk ...I also believe he does play a role in everyday lives ...do not believe in coincidences...things , even the small ones happen for a reason I find the whole "everything happens for a reason" decree irritating pablum. So everyone has free will to do what he or she wants, but if the consequences of that choice effect me "its for a reason." A good family man gets blown to smithereens in Iraq by an IED leaving a widow and a orphan. Must be for a reason. My friend and partner, a man who has had a positive impact on hundreds of people (if not more) on this planet, suffers an agonizing, slow death from cancer. A brutal ordeal for him, his family and his friends. He is unrecognizable at the time his family discontinues life support. It must be for a reason. Gee whiz - I can't understand why bad things happen to good people. Don't make no sense to me Verne. I know! It must be for a reason. I have no clue as to what that reason may be, but who am I to question it? Nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I find the whole "everything happens for a reason" decree irritating pablum. So everyone has free will to do what he or she wants, but if the consequences of that choice effect me "its for a reason." A good family man gets blown to smithereens in Iraq by an IED leaving a widow and a orphan. Must be for a reason. My friend and partner, a man who has had a positive impact on hundreds of people (if not more) on this planet, suffers an agonizing, slow death from cancer. A brutal ordeal for him, his family and his friends. He is unrecognizable at the time his family discontinues life support. It must be for a reason. Gee whiz - I can't understand why bad things happen to good people. Don't make no sense to me Verne. I know! It must be for a reason. I have no clue as to what that reason may be, but who am I to question it? Nonsense. "Everything happens for a reason" would tend to discount the idea that there is free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 How can you assume that any god is bound by the laws of the universe as we know them? Would it be so unreasonable to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I find the whole "everything happens for a reason" decree irritating pablum yup that is why my wife is now a recovering catholic and not a catholic... when her dad died in a plane crash the priest told here it was for a reason and that god needed him more than her..... thats always nice to here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 "Everything happens for a reason" would tend to discount the idea that there is free will. The whole pt of everything happens for a reason , was put forth to show God can and does have an active part in our lives ...yes we have free will , but as a Loving God , he would like for us to follow the right path ...not a matter of forcing us more of a matter of reminding us ...that was my whole point As for the other comment regarding a soldier getting blown up up to smithereens or the man with cancer , bad things do happen here on earth ... Very painful things but the bible ( new testament in particular ) asks us to focus on heaven not earth .... And that is very hard to do but the end prize as decreed by the bible is spending eternity in heaven and not living just for what's on earth The family that loses the soldier or the man with cancer will be in mourning for sure but at same time , one can look at it and say thank you for the time that we had with these people ... Thank you for the gift of them in our lives for the years they were ...its also a time to turn to God for strenght in my opinion as well as believe ( if you are in the faith ) that the person who has passed is with the Lord in peace ... I know that would not be easy but that is part of the faith My two cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Ah ... I see ... you are in essense arguing that there is no god (de-personifying) but rather the existence of a set of circumstances/laws that resulted in the creation of all. Unlike my usual position of there is no god, in this case I'm saying that there is a god, just not the big, man-like being sitting in a big chair, waiting for us to show up on his doorstep. I'm saying that by casting god in our own image we've automatically placed assumptions and behaviors upon this "being", ones that force us into logical corners when trying to explain things. By starting from a logically defendable position, it avoids paradoxes like teh one that is the original question here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 The whole pt of everything happens for a reason , was put forth to show God can and does have an active part in our lives ...yes we have free will , but as a Loving God , he would like for us to follow the right path ...not a matter of forcing us more of a matter of reminding us ...that was my whole point As for the other comment regarding a soldier getting blown up up to smithereens or the man with cancer , bad things do happen here on earth ... Very painful things but the bible ( new testament in particular ) asks us to focus on heaven not earth .... And that is very hard to do but the end prize as decreed by the bible is spending eternity in heaven and not living just for what's on earth The family that loses the soldier or the man with cancer will be in mourning for sure but at same time , one can look at it and say thank you for the time that we had with these people ... Thank you for the gift of them in our lives for the years they were ...its also a time to turn to God for strenght in my opinion as well as believe ( if you are in the faith ) that the person who has passed is with the Lord in peace ... I know that would not be easy but that is part of the faith My two cents You are claiming that "everything happens for a reason" and these things that happen are God's way of taking an active part in our lives, i.e. his way of attempting to influence us to "take the right path". So my question for you is this ... if God has decided He needs to take an active part in my life in an attempt to influence me back onto the most desired path how does he do this without impacting somebody's free will? If it takes the death of my mother to make me "see the light" hasn't he removed free will from my mother by causing her death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 The only way I can come close to justifying ‘free will’ is to see God and Satan as vastly more similar in power then they are painted. Otherwise – how can things not go according to his plan? that is essentially my take as well...that there is constant struggle in the universe -- between good and evil, light and darkness, life and death, order and chaos. we are on the front lines of that struggle as our lives live out that tension, we are in essence children of the light but suceptible to darkness every step of the way. now as far as relating that to the bible...i happen to think that framework fits in very well with the christian mythos, or at least one formulation of it. but i think you're right that it is in many ways at odds with the notion of the omnipotent, all-powerful creator god described in many parts of the bible. but there are a LOT of problems with that conception, this is but one of them. for instance, how does a perfectly good god, who is all-powerful, allow evil to exist? why did he create evil? to test us? why does he have to test us if he already knows the answer? and why eternal punishment for something he predestined us to do in the first place? if god really is all-knowing and all-powerful, then the existence of evil proves that he cannot be perfectly benevolent. i actually think, on balance, the bible comes down pretty squarely on the side of the free will argument you and i are advocating. look at satan...he was god's soldier (why would a truly all-powerful deity even need or use soldiers and agents?), then he began actively trying to subvert god's will, and succeeding pretty darned often. then god needed jesus to reconcile himself with us, and that reconciliation still cannot take place without determined action on OUR end. really, every fundamental component of the christian mythos points to the notion that we are children of god/light who truly can, by our own choices, tilt the scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 My friend and partner, a man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Not really a bible question, but the answer is actually fairly simple. God wanted to create a being that could choose to love (to love Him and each other). Without the free will to choose, then love loses it's depth and meaning. With that in mind, just because God can know what we will do, does not mean that He forces our hand. Could He have created a clockwork universe which HAS to follow His will? Presumably, yes. Are we in such a universe? Presumably, no. so god basically created a game he could lose? or, a game that he wanted to make it seem like he could lose, even though he knows all along he will win? i'm afraid this doesn't really "answer" much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 (edited) So my question for you is this ... if God has decided He needs to take an active part in my life in an attempt to influence me back onto the most desired path how does he do this without impacting somebody's free will? If it takes the death of my mother to make me "see the light" hasn't he removed free will from my mother by causing her death? this is what i was referring to earlier. i cannot bring myself to believe that everything happening here is part of an orchestrated chain of events with some desired outcome that is predetermined. if that is true, there really is no point in living and we are just mindless drones going through the set motions. so when someone says the big sweeping statements like "all things happen for a reason" or "God is working in everyone lives actively" etc. etc., i tune it out. maybe there are instances or moments or an event here or there serving as guideposts which i may or may not react to, but i can't get with the idea of everyone playing an scripted part in the play of life. aside from that, i believe God can intervene and maybe certain things do happen for a reason. if you want to listen to someone who believes this, check out at the 2006 super bowl breakfast as he talks about his son's death. interesting perspective. edited to add: this is the link to part 1. check out part 2 if you want to go right to the discussion on his son's death. part 1 provides good background and context. Edited April 9, 2007 by tonorator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 so god basically created a game he could lose? I don't see how that follows. Let's assume He created creatures with free will. Even if all of those creatures choose to oppose God for all eternity, how does that affect God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Not really a bible question, but the answer is actually fairly simple. God wanted to create a being that could choose to love (to love Him and each other). Without the free will to choose, then love loses it's depth and meaning. With that in mind, just because God can know what we will do, does not mean that He forces our hand. Good response. yup that is why my wife is now a recovering catholic and not a catholic... when her dad died in a plane crash the priest told here it was for a reason and that god needed him more than her..... thats always nice to here... What's wrong with that reasoning? Or would you have preferred that the Prist said, "I don't know why your father died. The world is meaningless and your father was just a victim of bad luck." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I don't see how that follows. Let's assume He created creatures with free will. Even if all of those creatures choose to oppose God for all eternity, how does that affect God? well i think we can assume he wanted to "win", otherwise why would he get all pissed off causing death and destruction when humans oppose him? and why would he need to if he hadn't made us better "choosers" in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 well i think we can assume he wanted to "win", So, you're assuming that God is capable of "losing"? why would he need to if he hadn't made us better "choosers" in the first place? I'm not biblical scholar, but it seems that God made mankind imperfect on purpose. Otherwise, we'd all be a bunch of clones of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 What's wrong with that reasoning? Or would you have preferred that the Prist said, "I don't know why your father died. The world is meaningless and your father was just a victim of bad luck." Personally I actually can't stand the "everything happens for a reason" and "God needed him more" type of reply to something as serious as a death in the family. It seems to me to be somewhat lazy and not well thought out on the part of the minister. The grief felt at the death of a loved one can be devastating... so much so that some people can die from grief itself. He should not ignore that kind of pain or try to explain it away in a cute little package with "there's a reason for everything" as a ribbon on top. He should absolutely try to help guide the grieving in a way that might help them to find some peace and avoid despair... and of course there are hopeful promises of life after death that he can expound upon... but too often I think the resposne to death can become trivial or routine for those that deal with it on a day-to-day basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 it seems that God made mankind imperfect on purpose. so that we could f*ck up and then he could punish us for being the way he made us? don't you have to wonder what the whole purpose behind that would be? and isn't it kinda sadistic? it's like god made a video game for himself and we're the chump bad guys with crappy AI that he mows down without a second thought on his way to the end he designed in the first place. i really hope god isn't that bored, and that when he "made" us, he made us with some purpose in mind...some purpose he could not accomplish without us. and that is why he cares enough to be hurt when we f*ck up. he "created" light to fill and drive out the darkness and chaos, but he didn't create the darkness and chaos. thus he has a stake in our world. i cannot think of god any other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Personally I actually can't stand the "everything happens for a reason" and "God needed him more" type of reply to something as serious as a death in the family. It seems to me to be somewhat lazy and not well thought out on the part of the minister. The grief felt at the death of a loved one can be devastating... so much so that some people can die from grief itself. If somebody dies in a freak accident (I'm assuming that's what happened in this case), it's kind of difficult to give the grieving child a good reason. Agreed that it'd be NICE to hear a better explanation but, geez, good luck coming up with something better than "It's just part of God's plan." He should not ignore that kind of pain Did he ignore it? We might not ever know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 so that we could f*ck up and then he could punish us for being the way he made us? don't you have to wonder what the whole purpose behind that would be? and isn't it kinda sadistic? I'm not sure which religion you're talking about, but in Catholicism you can redeem yourself by being honestly sorry and accepting penance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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