Big Country Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Situation - You are playing heads up. After the turn, your opponent has the best hand. What scenario provides you with the most outs to not lose the hand? Scenario means what is your holding, your opponents holding and what are the 4 cards on the board. Discuss and I will be back later with what I believe to be the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 (edited) Situation - You are playing heads up. After the turn, your opponent has the best hand. What scenario provides you with the most outs to not lose the hand? Scenario means what is your holding, your opponents holding and what are the 4 cards on the board. Discuss and I will be back later with what I believe to be the answer. My first thought was a flush/inside straight draw ... that would give me all of the remaining cards in one suit plus the 3 cards on each end of the straight. So my hand would be something like 10-J-Q-K of spades. Meaning I can hit any of the remaining 9 spades that were not in somebody else's hand and the remaining 9s and As. Edited June 14, 2007 by Grits and Shins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tford Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 (edited) Opponent has low pair, I have over cards and an open ended straight flush draw? Opp: 3D 8D Board: 8C 9C 2S AS My hand: JC 10C Outs: All four 7s Three remaining 10s Three remaining Js All four Qs Remaining 7 clubs = 21 outs / 44 cards = 48% to draw out for the win Am I Close? Edit: said spades but meant clubs Edited June 14, 2007 by Tford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 Opponent has low pair, I have over cards and an open ended straight flush draw? Opp: 3D 8D Board: 8C 9C 2S AS My hand: JC 10C Outs: All four 7s Three remaining 10s Three remaining Js All four Qs Remaining 7 spades = 21 outs / 44 cards = 48% to draw out for the win Am I Close? Warmish, but I would reread the actual question posed. What scenario provides you with the most outs to not lose the hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tford Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Warmish, but I would reread the actual question posed. What scenario provides you with the most outs to not lose the hand? Ah, must figure a way to include some form of chop to help out my %. Clever BC, clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tford Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Opp has ace-rag. Board is double paired and I have an open-ended straight flush draw. Opp: AD 3C Board: 7H 8H 7S 8S My hand: 9H 10H Outs: Two remaining 7s for a chop Two remaining 8s for a chop Three remaining 9s Three remaining 10s All four 6s All four Js Remaining 7 hearts Outs: 25 cards / 44 cards in the deck = 57% How's this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 Opp has ace-rag. Board is double paired and I have an open-ended straight flush draw. Opp: AD 3C Board: 7H 8H 7S 8S My hand: 9H 10H Outs: Two remaining 7s for a chop Two remaining 8s for a chop Three remaining 9s Three remaining 10s All four 6s All four Js Remaining 7 hearts Outs: 25 cards / 44 cards in the deck = 57% How's this? Much closer than the previous attempt, but, if I am correct, I have a situation that is much more favorable for us to not lose. I'll post that in about 20 minutes or so to give you a bit more time to mull it over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tford Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 (edited) Opp: 4D 2D Board: AD AS AH KS My hand: 3S 2S Outs: Every card except for: Three remaining fours Outs: 41 cards / 44 cards = 93% to chop or win Edited June 14, 2007 by Tford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Opp: 4D 2D Board: AD AS AH KS My hand: 3S 2S Outs: Every card except for: Three remaining fours Outs: 41 cards / 44 cards = 93% to chop or win This must be from PokerStars where everyone plays anything suited because they're morans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tford Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 This must be from RiverStars where everyone plays anything suited because they're morans. Fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 Definitely on the right track TFOrd, however, I believe the scenario I am about to present has our opponent with the best hand as of the turn, but gives us 100% of the deck to either win or tie. Opponent holds 7 of diamonds, 2 of hearts You hold the 5 and 6 of clubs The board is 3344, club and spade for each. I believe there is no card in the deck that gives the opponent a win. Any non-club ace through 8 gives a split pot. (21 outs) Any club Ace through 8 gives us a win. (7 outs) Any 2, 5, 6 or 7 gives us a win. (12 outs) Any 3 or 4 gives a split pot. (4 outs) So, 25 outs to tie, 19 outs to win. Our opponent has zero outs to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I'd find a way to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tford Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Definitely on the right track TFOrd, however, I believe the scenario I am about to present has our opponent with the best hand as of the turn, but gives us 100% of the deck to either win or tie. Opponent holds 7 of diamonds, 2 of hearts You hold the 5 and 6 of clubs The board is 3344, club and spade for each. I believe there is no card in the deck that gives the opponent a win. Any non-club ace through 8 gives a split pot. (21 outs) Any club Ace through 8 gives us a win. (7 outs) Any 2, 5, 6 or 7 gives us a win. (12 outs) Any 3 or 4 gives a split pot. (4 outs) So, 25 outs to tie, 19 outs to win. Our opponent has zero outs to win. Impressive, but I'd get check-raised and cough up the hand because I'm not that good at poker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 Impressive, but I'd get check-raised and cough up the hand because I'm not that good at poker. Hehe... I never said to find a realistic situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Great quiz BC. Here's a follow-up question (no googling or using the odds calculator ) Playing heads up, which two hands preflop leads to the most dominating position possible for one of the two players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheikYerbuti Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Great quiz BC. Here's a follow-up question (no googling or using the odds calculator ) Playing heads up, which two hands preflop leads to the most dominating position possible for one of the two players? KK vs. K2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 KK vs. K2 This is correct, KK vs K2 when the 2 is the same suit as one of the opponent's Kings. Should have known the dealer would come through with the quick answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Do you poker nerds ever make money playing cards or do you just sit around thinking up poker theory questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 (edited) This is correct, KK vs K2 when the 2 is the same suit as one of the opponent's Kings. Should have known the dealer would come through with the quick answer. Isn't the correct answer: "Pocket AA or KK" vs. "High card same as PP and any lower card that is both (i) of the same suit as one of the cards in the PP and (ii) unable to make a straight with the other card" ...so, I believe the odds in favor of "KK" vs "K2" (if the 2 is of the same suit as one of the two KK) would be the same as, say "AA" vs "A7" (where the 7 is of the same suit as one of the two AA)... Edited June 15, 2007 by muck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Isn't the correct answer: "Pocket AA or KK" vs. "High card same as PP and any lower card that is both (i) of the same suit as one of the cards in the PP and (ii) unable to make a straight with the other card" ...so, I believe the odds in favor of "KK" vs "K2" (if the 2 is of the same suit as one of the two KK) would be the same as, say "AA" vs "A7" (where the 7 is of the same suit as one of the two AA)... Wrong. Odds in favor in the KK vs K2 are 94.16%. Odds in favor of the AA vs. A7 are 92.94%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Do you poker nerds ever make money playing cards or do you just sit around thinking up poker theory questions? I won a $170 dollar pot last night calling with AQ on a board of KK247. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Wrong. Odds in favor in the KK vs K2 are 94.16%. Odds in favor of the AA vs. A7 are 92.94%. How? With KK/K2, if the board flops quads or a straight, its a split pot. The only way K2 wins is with a set of 2s, a low straight (i.e. 2-6) or a flush in the suit of his K. With AA/A7, if the board flops quads or a K through 10 for a straight, it's a split pot. The only way A7 wins is with a set of 7s, a low straight (3-7) or a flush in the suit of his A. ...what am I missing? How are the odds different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 How? With KK/K2, if the board flops quads or a straight, its a split pot. The only way K2 wins is with a set of 2s, a low straight (i.e. 2-6) or a flush in the suit of his K. With AA/A7, if the board flops quads or a K through 10 for a straight, it's a split pot. The only way A7 wins is with a set of 7s, a low straight (3-7) or a flush in the suit of his A. ...what am I missing? How are the odds different? I thought the same thing muck, seems that the odds should be the same. Card Player's odds calculator say the KK is a bigger favorite. Anyone know why this is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I thought the same thing muck, seems that the odds should be the same. Card Player's odds calculator say the KK is a bigger favorite. Anyone know why this is? After reading Cyclone's previous post, I ran it too - got the same results of course, the only other think I noticed is that the odds of a chop are also different - in K-K vs. K-2, odds of a split are 1.53%, while for the A-A vs A-7 scenario, the odds of a chop are 1.41%. I don't get it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I wonder if the odds are the same for (say) KK vs K2 as they are for KK vs. K7 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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