Michael Vick's Property Raided again

[kingfish247]

And you don't need the property owner to sign off on the permit? Great, I'll have my contractor get to work on that meth lab in your backyard.

This assumes you went through the formality of obtaining a permit. This also assumes I'm not at the property to prevent you from starting work on the meth lab. This also assumes you found a contractor/construction crew that cared to check on who the official owner actually is. It's a 15 acre property. I imagine as long as you aren't building a meth lab skyscraper you'd be fine.

The property is in Surry, not Newport News.

Whatever. The address listed is Smithfield, VA in Surry county. Surry population: 262... Surry County population: 6,829. Manhattan it's not.

[broncosn05]

This type of defense only sticks when you have truly an absentee owner who never is on the property and is renting/leasing to people s/he has no real connection to.

 

He is known to have gambled on the fights, he has been seen buying supplies at local pet supply companies.

 

It is all the other violations that are more serious that can be heaped onto this situation that will take him down.

 

If you don’t know he is “guilty” of something at this point, you are being disingenuous and naive.

Vick is trying to push that kind of defense saying he was never there.

 

The witnesses that I've heard about are already in jail. Not the best.

 

What other violations?

 

Do I think he is guilty? It's extremely hard not to, but we'll have to see. Why would he be so dumb when he's making 10 million a year?

[tbimm]

Why would he be so dumb when he's making 10 million a year?

Since when has making alot of money kept people from being stupid?

[Bill Swerski]

This assumes you went through the formality of obtaining a permit. This also assumes I'm not at the property to prevent you from starting work on the meth lab. This also assumes you found a contractor/construction crew that cared to check on who the official owner actually is. It's a 15 acre property. I imagine as long as you aren't building a meth lab skyscraper you'd be fine.

 

The point is that there would be some sort of paper trail leading back to the owner of the property. I imagine that no contractor/construction crew would work on a project without doing this first.

 

It's a 15 acre property. I imagine as long as you aren't building a meth lab skyscraper you'd be fine.

 

That's the same size as Vick's property. They didn't need to build a kennel skyscraper for the authorities to figure out what was going on.

Edited July 9, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[DMD]

And to think I started this thread...

[broncosn05]

Because it's constant. Every time he has screwed up, you run to his aid. It's time to see things for what they are, the guy is a punk. Unless, of course, you think that all of these problems are just following him around. What a shame. Such an innocent man, and all these bad people are out to get him. I never really had a major problem with Vick, and actually found him exciting to watch on the field, but, that has since changed. The guy is a scumbag, and ALMOST everyone knows that now, regardless of whether he gets convicted or not.

His rep has definetely been tarnished. Every time? The flipping off of the fans yelling at him was stupid. I said that. It's going to be really bad every game this year and he better learn to control himself. The airport? This. I know Vick is far from a role model, but I'm waiting for the investigation to go through. Just like the airport...

[Bill Swerski]

Some interesting tidbits...

 

* April 25 - Police conducted a search of home and land at 1915 Moonlight Road in southeastern Surry County. In the area of the outbuildings that law enforcement officials discovered evidence of a possible dog fighting operation. Potential evidence included blood splatters on the second floor of one of the outbuildings, dog treadmills and scales, a pry bar used to open a dog's mouth and a rape stand used for breeding. With the help of animal control officials from several localities called to the scene, they removed 66 dogs, 55 of them pit bulls, and seized equipment and some physical evidence.

 

* April 27 - ESPN reports that, even though Vick denies this, neighbors have reported seeing Vick in town from time to time and clerks at a nearby store have reported Vick buying nutritional supplies for dogs. Authorities told the news media that, although some equipment could be used in legitimate dog-breeding, there also was a "pry bar" used to pry apart a dog's jaws in dog fighting, and bloodstained carpeting on the floor of a room inside the home above the garage.

 

 

According to an ESPN attorney, under Virginia law, Vick can be prosecuted if the authorities can show that he was "aware" of dogfighting activities on his property. According to that attorney, "If it is proved that the fighting took place, it will be difficult for Vick to persuade anyone that he didn't know about it." According to other news media reports, Surry County investigators have spoken to as many as 30 people. Sheriff's Department Deputy W.R. Brinkman, the lead local investigator, said he has more people to talk to. Sheriff Harold D. Brown stated in an interview published on June 28 ..."we need to find out, if he's one of the big players or not." The county grand jury, the group which would typically consider felony indictments presented by a local prosecutor under state laws, is scheduled for a regular session to begin on July 24. Brown said they "possibly might be looking at something" when the county's grand jury meets July 24."

 

While it sounds like Vick may escape FEDERAL prosecution, he may still be in a crapload of trouble locally.

Edited July 9, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[broncosn05]

While it sounds like Vick may escape FEDERAL prosecution, but he may still be in a crapload of trouble locally.

Yep.

[Menudo]

His rep has definetely been tarnished. Every time? The flipping off of the fans yelling at him was stupid. I said that. It's going to be really bad every game this year and he better learn to control himself. The airport? This. I know Vick is far from a role model, but I'm waiting for the investigation to go through. Just like the airport...

 

O.k. I'm understanding your point better with this post. I knew you'd come around......

[broncosn05]

O.k. I'm understanding your point better with this post. I knew you'd come around......

What am I regaining my "credibility" now?

[The Wolf]

And to think I started this thread...

 

I knew I saw a "Gone " sign on your door, DMD!

[Menudo]

What am I regaining my "credibility" now?

 

slightly

[McBoog]

Vick is trying to push that kind of defense saying he was never there.

AIn't gonna work.

 

The witnesses that I've heard about are already in jail. Not the best.

We use witnesses with records all the time. Though less credible, it is the jury to decide their credability. A jailed witness is better than one that is testifying against in order to avoid going to jail themselves. I also have read that there are confidential sources that have been used to establish overt acts. Though seedy, if it was done properly, it doesn't matter who the source is, just that the informaation was obtained legally. A good prosecutor can fix this easily at trial.

 

What other violations?

My post was long, sorry, but read it again. RICO, $ laundering, even possibly tax evasion if he was earning any money (unclaimed income) off of the business. There is a myriad of statutes they can throw at him. I mentioned only a few, from the Federal perspective.

 

Do I think he is guilty? It's extremely hard not to, but we'll have to see. Why would he be so dumb when he's making 10 million a year?

These guys just don't seem to be able to escape the mindset and it is sad. Instead of escaping, they go back to flash their wealth to the hood. It is sad that what is percieved as 'the ticket out" is not used to fully escape. It is all they know, and all they want to know

 

I admire your desire to let the system work, it is truly nobel and a good American value. But, you also have to believe the old, "where there is smoke..."

[WaterMan]

I admire your desire to let the system work, it is truly nobel and a good American value. But, you also have to believe the old, "where there is smoke..."

 

It seems pretty hard for the Feds to make an arrest with all this smoke and evidence.

[broncosn05]

Vick is trying to push that kind of defense saying he was never there.

AIn't gonna work.

 

The witnesses that I've heard about are already in jail. Not the best.

We use witnesses with records all the time. Though less credible, it is the jury to decide their credability. A jailed witness is better than one that is testifying against in order to avoid going to jail themselves. I also have read that there are confidential sources that have been used to establish overt acts. Though seedy, if it was done properly, it doesn't matter who the source is, just that the informaation was obtained legally. A good prosecutor can fix this easily at trial.

 

What other violations?

My post was long, sorry, but read it again. RICO, $ laundering, even possibly tax evasion if he was earning any money (unclaimed income) off of the business. There is a myriad of statutes they can throw at him. I mentioned only a few, from the Federal perspective.

 

Do I think he is guilty? It's extremely hard not to, but we'll have to see. Why would he be so dumb when he's making 10 million a year?

These guys just don't seem to be able to escape the mindset and it is sad. Instead of escaping, they go back to flash their wealth to the hood. It is sad that what is percieved as 'the ticket out" is not used to fully escape. It is all they know, and all they want to know

 

I admire your desire to let the system work, it is truly nobel and a good American value. But, you also have to believe the old, "where there is smoke..."

Well there's no chance of saying that there wasn't dogfighting there so it's his only option.

 

Vick's going to be able to hire the best firm out there and I wouldn't put to much on convicts who are breaking deals, assumably.

 

Ok cool thought you meant other things during the offseason. Yeah if they prove he's tied it's going to be pretty bad. Is there a max number of animal cruelty charges can be pressed.

 

Agreed. I hate to group them together but a lot of NFL players have come from a bunch of bad places and football was there way out and now that they are out they are not used to the fame and money that comes along with it.

 

Yeah I'm paying the price for it.

[Sugar Magnolia]

The fact still remains that no charges have been brought forward on Vick. Now back to the topic at hand.

 

I'm not trying to justify dog fighting. But pitbulls are not weener dogs. They're born killers. Comparing the fighting of pitbulls to the molestation of a HUMAN child. Go ahead and differ.

 

I'm a professional dog trainer who has trained dozens of wonderful Pit Bulls- they are not born killers. They are trained to kill. Through natural selection they are given the genetic make-up to hold on when they bite, have a high level of endurance, high energy, high drive to not give-up, confiident, and have low pain threshhold. This makes them a good fighting dog. The one unfortunate result of natural selection is when they reach adulthood many Pits do not tolerate or like other dogs. Responsible breeders are trying to breed this out of them. A well bred Pit often turns out to dislike other dogs but are very affectionate towards people including strangers when properly introduced. The positve qualities of well bred Pits are they are clowns, love to play, love exercise for the athletic person, very easy to train and very loyal. Many are very protective which can be an asset or a hinderance depending on your lifestyle.

[broncosn05]

I'm a professional dog trainer who has trained dozens of wonderful Pit Bulls- they are not born killers. They are trained to kill. Through natural selection they are given the genetic make-up to hold on when they bite, have a high level of endurance, high energy, high drive to not give-up, confiident, and have low pain threshhold. This makes them a good fighting dog. The one unfortunate result of natural selection is when they reach adulthood many Pits do not tolerate or like other dogs. Responsible breeders are trying to breed this out of them. A well bred Pit often turns out to dislike other dogs but are very affectionate towards people including strangers when properly introduced. The positve qualities of well bred Pits are they are clowns, love to play, love exercise for the athletic person, very easy to train and very loyal. Many are very protective which can be an asset or a hinderance depending on your lifestyle.

No phun intended, but so are tigers and lions.

[Ursa Majoris]

I'm a professional dog trainer who has trained dozens of wonderful Pit Bulls- they are not born killers. They are trained to kill. Through natural selection they are given the genetic make-up to hold on when they bite, have a high level of endurance, high energy, high drive to not give-up, confiident, and have low pain threshhold. This makes them a good fighting dog. The one unfortunate result of natural selection is when they reach adulthood many Pits do not tolerate or like other dogs. Responsible breeders are trying to breed this out of them. A well bred Pit often turns out to dislike other dogs but are very affectionate towards people including strangers when properly introduced. The positve qualities of well bred Pits are they are clowns, love to play, love exercise for the athletic person, very easy to train and very loyal. Many are very protective which can be an asset or a hinderance depending on your lifestyle.

You mean "high pain threshold", not low.

[Ursa Majoris]

No phun intended, but so are tigers and lions.

Just when I thought you were fishing your sanity out from wherever you'd hidden it.......tigers and lions are not well known for being "clowns, love to play, love exercise for the athletic person, very easy to train and very loyal. Many are very protective" which is what SM said.

[broncosn05]

Just when I thought you were fishing your sanity out from wherever you'd hidden it.......tigers and lions are well known for being "clowns, love to play, love exercise for the athletic person, very easy to train and very loyal. Many are very protective" which is what SM said.

My sanity.

 

Assuming I fixed your post. I wasn't disagreeing. But I said pit bulls were born killers. And IMO so are lions and tigers. Mainly because it's how they survived and what they were born for. It's like saying a shark is a born killer. Just survival of the fittest.

[Sugar Magnolia]

You mean "high pain threshold", not low.

 

Yep, that's what I meant. I was just watching the silly All-Star softball game on TV and was thinkin', I think I wrote low pain threshold and came down to reread my post-oops.

 

I was just at Pac Bell Park on a trip to the Bay Area. What a great yard.

[Sugar Magnolia]

My sanity.

 

Assuming I fixed your post. I wasn't disagreeing. But I said pit bulls were born killers. And IMO so are lions and tigers. Mainly because it's how they survived and what they were born for. It's like saying a shark is a born killer. Just survival of the fittest.

 

I will agree and disagree. Pit Bulls who are bred as fighting dogs are bred to fight to the death through natural selection. The most aggressive dogs that survive are the ones that get bred. But not ALL Pit Bulls are born killers. You are generalizing. It would be like saying all NFL players are thugs. Pit Bulls bred by responsible breeders and socialized and trained early, like all dogs should be, are one of the best breeds to have as a pet. I would consider owning a Pit from a responsible breeder myself but too many have dog-dog aggression issues (they don't kill but will challenge) when they hit social maturity at about 18 months-3 years of age. I want a dog that I can take anywhere and not worry about them defending themselves and attacking back if they felt provoked by another dog. I can list 30 other breeds I wouldn't own for their genetic predisposition towards dog-dog aggression, to name a few popular ones-Rotties, German Shepherds, Akitas, Boxer, Airedales, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, Chows, ect. The one biggest concern about Pits that is probably genetic is the lack of bite inhibition and has to be worked on very young. Even if they don't want to hurt they can because they bite hard.

[broncosn05]

I will agree and disagree. Pit Bulls who are bred as fighting dogs are bred to fight to the death through natural selection. The most aggressive dogs that survive are the ones that get bred. But not ALL Pit Bulls are born killers. You are generalizing. It would be like saying all NFL players are thugs. Pit Bulls bred by responsible breeders and socialized and trained early, like all dogs should be, are one of the best breeds to have as a pet. I would consider owning a Pit from a responsible breeder myself but too many have dog-dog aggression issues (they don't kill but will challenge) when they hit social maturity at about 18 months-3 years of age. I want a dog that I can take anywhere and not worry about them defending themselves and attacking back if they felt provoked by another dog. I can list 30 other breeds I wouldn't own for their genetic predisposition towards dog-dog aggression, to name a few popular ones-Rotties, German Shepherds, Akitas, Boxer, Airedales, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, Chows, ect. The one biggest concern about Pits that is probably genetic is the lack of bite inhibition and has to be worked on very young. Even if they don't want to hurt they can because they bite hard.

Let me ask you an honest question. As a seasoned dog trainer would you ever let any of your kids near a pit bull that you had deemed socialized?

[Sugar Magnolia]

Let me ask you an honest question. As a seasoned dog trainer would you ever let any of your kids near a pit bull that you had deemed socialized?

 

This may not be fair for me to answer since I don't have children but....there are many Pit Bulls I have met that have been raised with and socialized around children that I would trust more around children than my own dogs who have not been socialized around children. My dogs, who are an Austrailian Shepherd and a Gordon Setter, have never aggressed towards a young child but I see them get nervous around them so I only allow calm children who have experience around dogs touch them. I don't take chances.

 

There are far more Pit Bulls I've met that I don't trust around strange dogs than strange people. Dogs who aggress towards dogs don't necessarily aggress towards people and vice versa. The breed temperament is to be very loving towards people but will not take kindly to dogs who are assertive and challenge them. The Pits that get the bad press by attacking people, are dogs who have been poorly bred, poorly socialized, and poorly treated, so they learn not to trust. To find the correct temperament of Pit Bulls go to www.dogbreedinfo.com. I have not read their description of the breed on that site but I bet it's pretty close to what I describe. I use that site to learn about a breed I've never trained before to get insight.

 

I currently have a Presa Carnario in my obedience class and that dog is making me nervous. This is the breed that killed Diane Whipple in SF that got all the press. I am not scared for me or the other classmates as he seems fine with people, but he is making way too much eye contact towards the other dogs and the 200 lb owner has a hard time controlling him. I've only had one class so far so I'll be watching him closely this week. This breed looks like a Pit Bull on steroids and this breed is bred to attack people and dogs and ask questions later. A far scarier breed than the Pit Bull.

[McBoog]

Let me ask you an honest question. As a seasoned dog trainer would you ever let any of your kids near a pit bull that you had deemed socialized?

 

I'll jump in an answer that. Though this changes the focus of the thread.

 

ABSOLUTELY NO FRIGGEN WAY!

 

I won't go in a house with unsecurred Pit Bulls and will NEVER let my children near them. I won't say I'm a "seasoned" dog trainer, but I was qualified as a judge for Vislas and Dachshunds. My family has bred and trained Vislas for the field as well as obidience and tricks/entertainment. In other words, we be into dogs!

 

My feelings are supported by a majority of the insurance industry. There is a short list of dogs that disqualify you from, in some instances, ANY chance of a home owners policy, and in most cases, much higher rates. Pit Bulls are at the top of that list.

 

Though the owner has a major role to play in the disposition of pit bulls, they have been bred for hundreds of years to be killer dogs, just like the Chow Chow (bred as a war dog, used to attack the enemy as well as a food source for the troops if needed). Many Pit owners relish the reputation of their dogs and make the situation worse with their attitude. Because of their warped sence of "pack" they are very much single person animals and even when raised with another dog, never quite work those doggy relationships out very well. The Pit Bull is the perfect companion for the anti-social hermit living in the mountains, far from other people.

 

There has been no "natural" selection in the formation of this breed. It has been carefully selected by humans for certain personality and physical traits that make it superior at what it does... to fight, blindly and ferociously to the death, in the PIT (hence Pit Bull). More niavete by those who refuse to acknowledge this, it is in their name for God's sake. They are agressive and dangerous animals. They have an unreasonable propencity to snap and love to kill other animals. Awsome watch dogs, they take little training to protect one's property, but are often almost as dangerous to the property owner if left to roam as they have a tendency (unusual in dogs) to go "ferrel" in reduced human contact situations. They are retarded socially with both humans and other dogs and do not form the same type of "pack" relationships that almost all other dogs do.

 

Sure, there may be some breeders trying to "breed this out", but what will be left when they do? The other good traits they are trying to re-instill have already been masked or removed through a couple centuries of breeding!

 

There is no place for this breed in the human/dog relationship, unless of course they are used as a gambling tool for dog fights. There are so many better choices for a family dog without ANY of these concerns, it is beyond me why anyone would bring one of these time bombs into their home, especially if children and their friends are around. They are dangerous to a fault and have attacked and killed the children of their owners (two of them even ate a baby in Tucson when I was living there 20 years ago!) without provocation and at a rate astronomically higher than the average for almost all other breeds. Even the "nice ones" do snap and go into a blood rage when they do get pushed to the fight/attack mode and are single minded at that point on (hence the need for jaw bars). Voice commands and saying, "No, bad dog!" just doesn't cut it at this point.

 

Just as we have bred cows and pigs and chickens for a cetain purpose, we too have bred dogs for other missions. The relationship of man and dog has been one of the most successful cross-species coopertion models ever known. We as humans have created this breed for a purpose, and sadly, there is no turning back.

 

But hey, Mike Vick is the most exciting player...