Auto Industry Bailout?

[Azazello1313]

some pretty solid analysis from mitt romney

[muck]

da troof

[AtomicCEO]

that's sorta the $50 billion question, isn't it. maybe because they know the democrats will ultimately bail them out?

 

Then that will be their death. I've already sent emails to my Senate and House dems to let them know that I'll vote against them if they give my tax money to the auto industry. I encourage others to do the same.

[Azazello1313]

Then that will be their death. I've already sent emails to my Senate and House dems to let them know that I'll vote against them if they give my tax money to the auto industry.

 

that will be their death? I think you may be slightly overestimating your pull in washington.

[AtomicCEO]

so consumer reports rates all vehicles, and it has a 2-tier recommendation. if you're a subscriber you can hit the link here. a rough eyeball guess would be that about a third of all models are recommended, with about half of those getting the full second-tier recommendation. here's a list of a few brands, how many models they have, and how many of their models got recommendations, then a percent:

 

buick - 3 models, 1 tier1, 0 tier2 - 33%

cadillac - 6 models, 1 tier1, 0 tier2 - 17%

chevrolet - 23 models, 2 tier1, 2 tier2 - 17%

chrysler - 9 models, 0 tier1, 0 tier2 - 0%

dodge - 17 models, 0 tier 1, 0 tier2 - 0%

ford - 20 models, 5 tier1, 5 tier2 - 50%

GMC - 10 models, 1 tier1, 0 tier2 - 10%

jeep - 6 models, 0 tier1, 0 tier2 - 0%

pontiac - 8 models, 1 tier1, 0 tier2 - 12%

 

acura - 5 models, 0 tier1, 3 tier2 - 60%

bmw - 11 models, 4 tier1, 3 tier2 - 64%

honda - 15 models, 3 tier1, 9 tier2 - 80%

hyundai - 14 models, 3 tier1, 5 tier2 - 57%

infiniti - 7 models, 0 tier1, 5 tier2 - 71%

lexus - 10 models, 5 tier1, 4 tier2 - 90%

mazda - 12 models, 7 tier1, 2 tier2 - 75%

nissan - 18 models, 6 tier1, 6 tier2 - 67%

subaru - 11 models, 4 tier1, 7 tier2 - 100%

toyota - 23 models, 6 tier1, 13 tier2 - 83%

 

I remember reading that around 42% of Lincoln Navigators required repairs and service in the first year of purchase. And that's like a $50K auto. I laugh if I see someone driving one of those things... expensive and crappy? Fine work, consumer... fine work.

[AtomicCEO]

that will be their death? I think you may be slightly overestimating your pull in washington.

 

Are you going to vote dem?

 

Well, then... there's 2 down.

[caddyman]

I don't really want the government bailing them out regardless, but if they did, I wouldn't be opposed to what you describe. of course, the executives and the UAW could negotiate something like this just between themselves without government intervention and it would solve a lot of their problems. but they haven't, and they won't, and it will never be part of any legislation the democrats pass. much easier to just put your hand out and let all that money you spend in elections come back home to roost.

it sue is easier to put your hand out when you fly a luxury jet to DC for the hearings..

 

LUXURY

[Ursa Majoris]

it sue is easier to put your hand out when you fly a luxury jet to DC for the hearings..

 

LUXURY

People like these (and the politicians they beg from) are completely divorced from any relationship with reality. Presumably they had no idea we'd all laugh and point fingers at them.

 

Recipients of eight-figure bonuses in 2007, the corporate cowboys used their executive perks — which for GM's Rick Wagoner include the run of a $36 million Gulfstream IV jet — to arrive in style as they went begging before Congress.

 

Wagoner, whose flight reportedly cost $20,000 round-trip — about 70 times more than a commercial airline ticket — told Congress he expected about $10-$12 billion from the requested bailout.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Ursa Majoris

[whoopazz]

People like these (and the politicians they beg from) are completely divorced from any relationship with reality. Presumably they had no idea we'd all laugh and point fingers at them.

 

Saw that, it's laughable. But, they'll get what they want...

[wirehairman]

if they were really so great they probably wouldn't all be on the verge of bankruptcy.

 

I couldn't agree more that the Big 3 have brought many of their woes upon themselves. At the same time, I think that they do have some good products and have made strides to introduce hybrids and other models to keep up with the times. They need to clear the chaffe and concentrate on the good models. They have also done a terrible job of marketing their strengths.

 

Personally, I belive that the Big 3 will never be able to recover from their past bad decisions and that the bailout is a waste of money. I just hope that Chevy trucks splits off into its own company when GM finally fails because I would be very sad to have to purchase one of those piece of crap Tundras or Titans for my next pick-up.

[theeohiostate]

I think is the USA would cap frivolous injury lawsuits, lower their standards for crash and emissions standards the Big 3 would do extremely well. They all make very good 60MPG vehicles being sold in Europe today, but these same cars doing well in other countries are not permitted to be sold in the US . Bureaucracy is what has hurt GM the most ..........well that and the UAW.

Edited November 20, 2008 by theeohiostate

[dmarc117]

Senators Levin, Bond, Voinovich, Stabenow reach agreement on bipartisan auto aid agreement, according to Senate Democratic aide - Reuters

 

 

wait one second.....

 

Reid, Pelosi say auto bill may have to wait until December - CNBC

Edited November 20, 2008 by dmarc117

[Rebellab]

How about everyone from top-down takes a pay cut?

 

Make the first, say, $30k exempt so the dude barely getting by sweeping the floor can still put food on the table for his family. But after the exempt portion, everyone take a, say, 30% pay reduction.

 

Write that into the legislation, make it part of the bail out offer. That should bring some crazy union negotiated salaries back in line with reason?

 

Apparently the AUW has said that their members will not take a pay cut. I guess if I were them, I would be more worried about all the members having a job. I don't get this mentality.

[dmarc117]

US Senate Democratic leader Reid says "the sad reality is that no one has come up with a (auto) plan" that can be passed by House and Senate, signed by President - Reuters

[Ursa Majoris]

Here's the plan:

 

Let them file for Chapter 11. They're going to have to eventually, so why not now? It's like a bad tooth - it HAS to come out, don't delay. As for the "too big to fail" argument, what a crock of poo. Of the original 30 companies listed on the DJIA, only one still exists. It's like a forest fire - it's cleansing and allows for new growth.

 

Here's the deal - not one of us needs GM et al, what we need is cars. As long as the cars are supplied - and they will be - all is well. It's the same as airlines - none of us here in Minny needs NorthWest - what we need is flights and they will be supplied come what may as long as there is demand.

 

Preservation should be for great architecture and art, not ex-great companies.

[Furd]

I think the regular folks in Anna, Ohio have a handle on this:

 

No need for bailout, say diners near thriving car plant

 

ANNA, Ohio (CNN) -- Many people in the diner know someone working in the car industry. They are certainly in car country -- there's an engine factory down the road, and they live between Ohio's major plants and the Detroit home of the industry.

 

You don't have to go far in any direction to find a threatened auto plant. But the diners and staff do not back a proposed $25 billion bailout.

 

The car industry in their neighborhood is doing well -- the Honda engine plant in Anna, Ohio, sits amid lots crowded with employee vehicles, ringed by carefully trimmed trees and endless farm fields beyond. It recently underwent a $75 million, 135,000-square-foot expansion.

 

The success of the factory, which Honda says has built 15 million engines from scratch since it opened 23 years ago, has been spread beyond Anna, which lies in western Ohio between Dayton and Toledo.

 

"Honda's really helped this area as far as housing, retail sales, the restaurant business," said Tim Rogers, who has owned the Inn Between Tavern in Botkins, just up the road from Anna, for 33 years.

 

"People who are in here at night are also Honda employees. They have more money to spend. My business has been good since Honda came into the area."

 

The Inn Between's waitress is busy delivering the lunch special of breaded chicken, mashed potatoes and green beans to a stream of customers who work at different places but all seem to know one another. The banter is raucous and sustained, and when the conversation turns to a proposed federal bailout for U.S. automakers, there is little support for the idea.

 

I don't think they should bail them out because ... obviously something's not right in the way they're running their business, and why should the American people have to bail them out if they can't figure out how to do it right?" September Quinn, the busy waitress, said after the lunch rush at the Inn Between.

 

She holds the unions just as accountable as the companies for the industry's problems.

 

"People agree with the unions because the workers want to be backed on everything, but then again, there aren't people striving to do their job better," said Quinn, whose father works at the nonunion Honda plant. "They've just got Papa Bear to back them up in any instance, and they keep their job. And you can do that, but I don't know at the cost of what."

 

John Lenhart, a consultant with Plastipak Packaging in Jackson Center, Ohio, and an officer with the Sidney-Shelby County Chamber of Commerce, said any bailout should have strong strings attached.

 

"Unless I'm missing something here, the key to it is, they should put in a game plan and execute it, with serious restraints and serious reorganization," said Lenhart, a former five-term sheriff in Anna's Shelby County.

 

His Plastipak colleague Will Vetter also said any bailout should have strings attached.

 

"If you just give them money, you will get same-old, same-old results," he said after lunch at the Inn Between. "They're not prepared to downsize their businesses fast enough and to eliminate their costs at a rate that will make them profitable."

 

Vetter suggested that bankruptcy would allow GM to make significant changes faster, because a judge could void labor and supplier contracts, debts could be restructured, and Congress would not be involved.

 

"I guarantee in bankruptcy you can move really fast. You're only dealing with one person. You don't have three or four hundred people you're towing along at half-speed."

 

Both men said the nation and its auto industry will find a way to survive no matter what happens to GM.

 

"The country's got some ills, but we'll heal up," Lenhart said. "We'll be all right."

[AtomicCEO]

Apparently the AUW has said that their members will not take a pay cut. I guess if I were them, I would be more worried about all the members having a job. I don't get this mentality.

 

I don't get it either... but maybe it has a little to do with this link from earlier in the thread:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454844,00.html

 

If you were a guy making $40K a year, and the guy telling you that you need to cut your benefits took a single flight that cost the company $20K, took an 8 figure bonus last year... wouldn't you think that maybe the money could be squeezed from somewhere else?

 

I mean, is this guy really earning that money as the company struggles to avoid bankruptcy?

 

Both the union and the executives are the problems, but one of them is bloated by about 50-75%, the other is bloated by about 1000%.

 

ETA: People would care more about the bloated unions, if there weren't an even larger ridiculous elephant in the room. Executive compensation at GM is a national laughingstock.

Edited November 20, 2008 by AtomicCEO

[westvirginia]

I think the regular folks in Anna, Ohio have a handle on this:

 

No need for bailout, say diners near thriving car plant

 

 

Agreed.

 

Uhh, Furd, you do realize that if the bailout doesn't happen, Detroit will become a deserted, smoking hole, right? Well, more than now.

[Furd]

Agreed.

 

Uhh, Furd, you do realize that if the bailout doesn't happen, Detroit will become a deserted, smoking hole, right? Well, more than now.

 

 

Ouch.

 

It just might have a hugh ripple effect. But no one has explained how handing them 25 billion without any strings attached is going to turn things around.

[TimC]

Here's the breakdown for GM by model orders from 2007 to 2008...warning, it ain't pretty at all.

[Furd]

Here's the breakdown for GM by model orders from 2007 to 2008...warning, it ain't pretty at all.

 

 

if I read that report correctly, Chevy Malibu sales are up 31.3% from last year. The 2008 North American Car of the Year. I've read some pretty good reviews about it.

 

If you build a good car, by cracky, people will buy it. Who knew?

[AtomicCEO]

if I read that report correctly, Chevy Malibu sales are up 31.3% from last year. The 2008 North American Car of the Year. I've read some pretty good reviews about it.

 

If you build a good car, by cracky, people will buy it. Who knew?

 

The only cars to increase in sales in November:

Malibu - The Chevy car designed to compete directly with the Honda Accord

Vibe - A rebranded Toyota Matrix without AWD

 

I think that's all of them.

[TimC]

Corvette -55.2%

 

With GM on the brink, what will happen to the Corvette?

 

Some Corvette fans and avid forum members over at GM Inside News have already asked the unfathomable question of what automaker should take over the reigns of America's longest-running sports car if its parent company were to lose custody. Their answer, rather shockingly, was Toyota. We sure hope it doesn't come to that. Still, tough questions deserve thoughtful answers, and Motor Trend is asking away. [more]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kill me when that happens. Please.

[dmarc117]

Corvette -55.2%

 

With GM on the brink, what will happen to the Corvette?

 

Some Corvette fans and avid forum members over at GM Inside News have already asked the unfathomable question of what automaker should take over the reigns of America's longest-running sports car if its parent company were to lose custody. Their answer, rather shockingly, was Toyota. We sure hope it doesn't come to that. Still, tough questions deserve thoughtful answers, and Motor Trend is asking away. [more]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kill me when that happens. Please.

 

 

a supra could crush the corvette

[TimC]

a supra could crush the corvette

 

Everytime you lie, the Cubs go another 100 years without a Champeenship.