MojoMan Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Have any of y'all been following the NTSB briefing? At the risk of being criticized here for dissing the dead, these are the facts of the case. The Captain made ~$55K and communted to Newark, his base airport, from his home in Florida. He had failed 5 test rides and this was his second career (he had previously run a small business). He had been a pilot for ~4 years. The First Officer was a 24 year old who made $16K a year. She couldn't afford to live near Newark (also her home base) so she lived with her parents and commuted to Newark for work from Seattle. She had taken a redeye that would have arrived in the early AM of the day of the crash (the crash occurred around 10 PM that night). That's a long time to be awake...just napping in lounges. But, on 16K, how can you afford a hotel in New York? For whatever reason, both were violating the "sterile cockpit" rules, prohibiting small talk below 10,000 feet. Remember the weather was bad with icing and fog that night. While I'm sure a very disciplined pilot wouldn't violate sterile cockpit even on a sunny, dry, California day, this was a winter night in Buffalo. They should have been all business. Basically they failed to monitor their airspeed on final approach, the aircraft stalled, and the pilot reacted inappropriately, yanking the nose up and making the stall worse. They plunged into a house killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground. I am shocked and saddened. That was totally unappropriate and unprofessional behavior on the part of the flight crew who was responsible for the lives of at least 47 people other than their own and potentially scores more on the ground. However, when you get paid $16K, how professional do you feel? What kind of person can this airline attract only paying that much for such responsibility? I am inclined to think that either we need to pay more for airfare and/or fly to fewer destinations and have highly trained, professional, experienced flight crews in the cockpit. Discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Have any of y'all been following the NTSB briefing? At the risk of being criticized here for dissing the dead, these are the facts of the case. The Captain made ~$55K and communted to Newark, his base airport, from his home in Florida. He had failed 5 test rides and this was his second career (he had previously run a small business). He had been a pilot for ~4 years. The First Officer was a 24 year old who made $16K a year. She couldn't afford to live near Newark (also her home base) so she lived with her parents and commuted to Newark for work from Seattle. She had taken a redeye that would have arrived in the early AM of the day of the crash (the crash occurred around 10 PM that night). That's a long time to be awake...just napping in lounges. But, on 16K, how can you afford a hotel in New York? For whatever reason, both were violating the "sterile cockpit" rules, prohibiting small talk below 10,000 feet. Remember the weather was bad with icing and fog that night. While I'm sure a very disciplined pilot wouldn't violate sterile cockpit even on a sunny, dry, California day, this was a winter night in Buffalo. They should have been all business. Basically they failed to monitor their airspeed on final approach, the aircraft stalled, and the pilot reacted inappropriately, yanking the nose up and making the stall worse. They plunged into a house killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground. I am shocked and saddened. That was totally unappropriate and unprofessional behavior on the part of the flight crew who was responsible for the lives of at least 47 people other than their own and potentially scores more on the ground. However, when you get paid $16K, how professional do you feel? What kind of person can this airline attract only paying that much for such responsibility? I am inclined to think that either we need to pay more for airfare and/or fly to fewer destinations and have highly trained, professional, experienced flight crews in the cockpit. Discuss. Wow, I didn't realize the pay was that low. When the person in charge of 50 lives has judgment deemed to be worth less than your average retail store manager, that's bad. And I made more than the copilot waiting tables in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 just one more reason i hate to fly. planes are flown by humans. humans make mistakes. mistakes in a cockpit kill people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 The Captain made ~$55K and communted to Newark, his base airport, from his home in Florida. He had failed 5 test rides and this was his second career (he had previously run a small business). He had been a pilot for ~4 years. The First Officer was a 24 year old who made $16K a year. Pilot rates. Great Lakes is $16 / hr for a first year Flying Officer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Great Lakes is $16 / hr for a first year Flying Officer. Flew that airline all the time to DIA when I lived in Wyoming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Flew that airline all the time to DIA when I lived in Wyoming. Lucky it wasn't DOA. I can't believe those rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 They are paid like what the business world thinks they are. Glorified bus drivers and waitresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 We flew on Bahamas Air to Bahamas and the co-pilot looked like a 17-year old bubble-gum chewing valley girl. I'm usually not scared of flying at all, but that flight I was praying to any God that would have me at that point. Flight turned out to be perfect. I also heard the First Officer you're referring to on that doomed flight also held a second job at Starbucks (I think they said Starbucks). I do not want my pilot working anywhere that has a tip jar. But these large airlines lease out these short hops to the small airlines every day and you don't know it until the day of the flight. It's all about saving a nickle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsfan Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Wow, I didn't realize the pay was that low. When the person in charge of 50 lives has judgment deemed to be worth less than your average retail store manager, that's bad. And I made more than the copilot waiting tables in college. Why is that shocking? Pre-school teachers are paid $8-10/hour? They are entrusted with the lives of your children for 8 hours per day, and could get a nice raise working at the local amusement park. As an engineer, I make 10x what my wife makes as a kindergarten teacher. Our societies values are completely f'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Why is that shocking? Pre-school teachers are paid $8-10/hour? They are entrusted with the lives of your children for 8 hours per day, and could get a nice raise working at the local amusement park. As an engineer, I make 10x what my wife makes as a kindergarten teacher. Our societies values are completely f'd. I have to disagree on this one. Teachers are paid so little because nearly anyone can do the job with at least a modicum of success. I know that will stir up a hornets nest, but ETA: The difference is the pilot is shepherding a metal tube through the air and one flub (like jerking the nose up worsening a stall) kills everyone. Edited May 14, 2009 by westvirginia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Why is that shocking? Pre-school teachers are paid $8-10/hour? They are entrusted with the lives of your children for 8 hours per day, and could get a nice raise working at the local amusement park. As an engineer, I make 10x what my wife makes as a kindergarten teacher. Our societies values are completely f'd. That is highly overpaid for a babysitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojoMan Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 Oh f()Ck, the pilot was a stockboy at Publix. Renslow’s previous jobs included work as a stock clerk at Publix Inc. supermarkets from January 2004 to August 2005, according to NTSB reports. He had also been a sales representative for Verizon Communications Inc. and a business travel specialist at American Express Co., the records show. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...4k&refer=us This doesn't bother y'all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Oh f()Ck, the pilot was a stockboy at Publix. Renslow’s previous jobs included work as a stock clerk at Publix Inc. supermarkets from January 2004 to August 2005, according to NTSB reports. He had also been a sales representative for Verizon Communications Inc. and a business travel specialist at American Express Co., the records show. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...4k&refer=us This doesn't bother y'all? Why should it? The bothersome part is that he failed flight tests but still was able to pilot a plane. Who cares is he was a stock boy? If he can buck up and make himself a pilot good for him, but he didn't amke a very good one unfortunately. I'm more bothered by the fact the co-pilot had to get a second job as a barista in order to make ends meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Why should it? The bothersome part is that he failed flight tests but still was able to pilot a plane. Who cares is he was a stock boy? Seriously. I've actually recently considered being a stock-boy on the third-shift at the local Meijer grocery store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Seriously. I've actually recently considered being a stock-boy on the third-shift at the local Meijer grocery store. Well, if we're talking about the pilot, isn't your analogy off? If you were a stock boy in 2004-05 then you'd be a lousy professor. Probably tell me to not buy AMerican... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 I have to disagree on this one. Teachers are paid so little because nearly anyone can do the job with at least a modicum of success. I know that will stir up a hornets nest, but ETA: The difference is the pilot is shepherding a metal tube through the air and one flub (like jerking the nose up worsening a stall) kills everyone. There are a ton of well paying professions that anyone can do the job with at least a modicum of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 There are a ton of well paying professions that anyone can do the job with at least a modicum of success. Right, and pilot ain't one of 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsfan Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Right, and pilot ain't one of 'em. Speaking as someone who has flown a plane, it isn't that difficult. You just have to have some common sense and a frigging clue about what makes a plane stay aloft. Airplanes are aerodynamically stable, you can get up and walk around and the plane will stay level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Speaking as someone who has flown a plane, it isn't that difficult. You just have to have some common sense and a frigging clue about what makes a plane stay aloft. Airplanes are aerodynamically stable, you can get up and walk around and the plane will stay level. I'm sure that's true, and I have no problem with private pilots having fairly lax standards. It's their airplane, and the skies are empty compared to the street of your average metro area. The whole equation changes when you are responsible for carting about paying passengers. That guy that bellied the plane into the Hudson a couple months ago earned every dollar that airline will ever pay him in about a 10 minute period. I want to fly on an airline that trains its pilots like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 I'm sure that's true, and I have no problem with private pilots having fairly lax standards. It's their airplane, and the skies are empty compared to the street of your average metro area. The whole equation changes when you are responsible for carting about paying passengers. That guy that bellied the plane into the Hudson a couple months ago earned every dollar that airline will ever pay him in about a 10 minute period. I want to fly on an airline that trains its pilots like that. I think he was ex-Navy. The airlines don't train to that standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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