The Great Ethanol Scam

[Double Agent]

Business Week

[Perchoutofwater]

Most people have known for a while that ethanol did more harm than good, and was much less efficient than gas. This is the first I've heard of it actually doing damage to vehicles. When are we going to start taking the time to look at the effects of our environmental policies before implementing them? CFL' stupid! Ethanol stupid!

 

Now we are about to saddle an already struggling industry with new cafe standards, which some believe will increase the cost of the average vehicle by $1,300. I'm sure that is going to help Detroit sell more cars. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for trying to improve the environment, but I'd rather be smart about it, and do int incrementally so that already teetering industries in a depression don't fail.

[Square]

Most people have known for a while that ethanol did more harm than good, and was much less efficient than gas. This is the first I've heard of it actually doing damage to vehicles. When are we going to start taking the time to look at the effects of our environmental policies before implementing them? CFL' stupid! Ethanol stupid!

Compact fluorescent lamps are stupid? You're gonna have to help me with that one.

[Perchoutofwater]

Compact fluorescent lamps are stupid? You're gonna have to help me with that one.

 

The mercury in them, makes them an environmental hazard. Lighting manufactures really weren't all that thrilled with them, and were really advancing LED technology when the government decided to stick its nose into our lives again and mandate the extinction of the incandescent bulb. In doing so, they set back the research into LED's which are more efficient and don't have the environmental hazards of a CFL.

 

Here is a link that better describes what I'm talking about.

[Tford]

 

My professors at college would have given me a big fat F had I turned in a paper like Mr. Wallace's article. Mr. Wallace cited studies that are not only out dated, but peer-reviews of these studies over the past 12 years find exactly the opposite to be true, and have been discredited by the scientific community, government and academic research. Over 40% of the references listed in the reports Mr. Wallace refered to were from the 80's and 90's and failed to meet international standards. I also don't understand how Mr. Wallace can refere to someone that was an oil company employee and now heads up the U of CA Oil Consortium as "independant". The above are just a few examples where Mr. Wallace did not check his facts. I wonder which oil company wrote this one and paid Mr. Wallace for his byline.

 

 

One of the comments on that Ethanol article. And he's right.

 

Ethanol dissolves the plastic in your fuel pump? Sure it does. Just like the 40% ethanol in your favorite hard liquor dissolves the plastic bottle.

[Perchoutofwater]

Ethanol dissolves the plastic in your fuel pump? Sure it does. Just like the 40% ethanol in your favorite hard liquor dissolves the plastic bottle.

 

How long do you leave you booze in a plastic bottle? When I used mixed my bourbon and coke fairly strong in a styrofoam cup, the cup would sweat. The sweat would be brown because it was the coke and booze sweating through the cup. So I know bourbon will break down styrofoam in a relatively short time. It makes sense ethanol would break down plastic if the plastic is exposed for a prolonged period of time.

[Tford]

How long do you leave you booze in a plastic bottle? When I used mixed my bourbon and coke fairly strong in a styrofoam cup, the cup would sweat. The sweat would be brown because it was the coke and booze sweating through the cup. So I know bourbon will break down styrofoam in a relatively short time. It makes sense ethanol would break down plastic if the plastic is exposed for a prolonged period of time.

 

Styrofoam =/= plastic

 

 

ETA: Should read that styrofoam is not an aliphatic plastic (like PVC, polyethylene or polypropylene). Styrofoam is tehcnically a plastic but exhibits completely different behaviour than standard plastics.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Tford

[Perchoutofwater]

Styrofoam =/= plastic

 

Polystyrene and PVC

Plastic piping and firestops being installed at Nortown Casitas, North York (Now Toronto), Ontario, Canada. Certain plastic pipes can be used in some non-combustible buildings, provided they are firestopped properly and that the flame spread ratings comply with the local building code.

 

After the First World War, improvements in chemical technology led to an explosion in new forms of plastics. Among the earliest examples in the wave of new plastics were polystyrene (PS) and polyvinyl chloride (PVC), developed by IG Farben of Germany.

 

Polystyrene is a rigid, brittle, inexpensive plastic that has been used to make plastic model kits and similar knick-knacks. It would also be the basis for one of the most popular "foamed" plastics, under the name styrene foam or Styrofoam. Foam plastics can be synthesized in an "open cell" form, in which the foam bubbles are interconnected, as in an absorbent sponge, and "closed cell", in which all the bubbles are distinct, like tiny balloons, as in gas-filled foam insulation and flotation devices. In the late 1950s, high impact styrene was introduced, which was not brittle. It finds much current use as the substance of toy figurines and novelties.

 

link

[Tford]

Things that you shouldn't expose alcohol (for fuel purposes) to:

 

Fiberglass (the resin gets eaten by the alcohol)

Ferric, ferrous or alumina rust (dissolution into the alcohol)

Certain forms of rubber (can cause cracking)

Water (will quickly form a solution w/ alcohol; watering out your fuel)

 

 

I'd wager that the fuel pumps that mechanic is seeing bad O-rings and fuel contamination moreso than plastic damage. And that's the manufacturer's fault for using low grade rubber as well as the owner/user's fault for not recognizing rust damage on fittings/tanks.

 

 

Tell me how many fifths of whiskey you see in plastic bottles next time you go to the liquor store.

[Tford]

link

 

Polystyrene (the base chain polymer for styrofoam) is completely different than standard plastic (polyethylene, polypropylene and polyvinylchloride PVC). Styrene is an aromatic compund (contains benzene rings) whereas the other three are considered aliphatic compounds (straight chain). They behave completely differently in many different compounds. The other factor is that styrofoams generally have resins stabilizers to give the foam strength. This resin is usually the reason for alcohol destroying the integrity of the foam.

 

Styrene - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrene

 

Vinyl chloride - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_chloride

 

 

They aren't the same thing. Both are plastics, but they are completely different.

[Perchoutofwater]

Things that you shouldn't expose alcohol (for fuel purposes) to:

 

Fiberglass (the resin gets eaten by the alcohol)

Ferric, ferrous or alumina rust (dissolution into the alcohol)

Certain forms of rubber (can cause cracking)

Water (will quickly form a solution w/ alcohol; watering out your fuel)

 

 

I'd wager that the fuel pumps that mechanic is seeing bad O-rings and fuel contamination moreso than plastic damage. And that's the manufacturer's fault for using low grade rubber as well as the owner/user's fault for not recognizing rust damage on fittings/tanks.

 

 

Tell me how many fifths of whiskey you see in plastic bottles next time you go to the liquor store.

 

I would assume it depends on the plastic. I'd also assume that for a very long time manufacturers didn't have to worry about the alcohol content. Still even if it isn't damaging your vehicle, it is not anywhere near as good as advertised, and there is strong evidence that it causes more harm than good. Food shortages, run-off pollution, lower mileage, all for what? What is the upside?

[Tford]

I would assume it depends on the plastic. I'd also assume that for a very long time manufacturers didn't have to worry about the alcohol content. Still even if it isn't damaging your vehicle, it is not anywhere near as good as advertised, and there is strong evidence that it causes more harm than good. Food shortages, run-off pollution, lower mileage, all for what? What is the upside?

 

No new carbon is introduced into the atmosphere. CO2 from the air is absorbed by the corn (or whatever plant is grown to harvest for EtOH production). When the fuel is burned, the CO2 produced is the same CO2 that was absorbed by the plants (minus the carbon burned by the processing facility of course)

 

Also, Ethanol burns hotter (and therefore cleaner) than standard gasoline. If your engine is built for it, the engine buildup is minimized. It also works well as a gasline antifreeze.

 

 

(Not defending ethanol here; just stating facts)

[Perchoutofwater]

No new carbon is introduced into the atmosphere. CO2 from the air is absorbed by the corn (or whatever plant is grown to harvest for EtOH production). When the fuel is burned, the CO2 produced is the same CO2 that was absorbed by the plants (minus the carbon burned by the processing facility of course)

 

Also, Ethanol burns hotter (and therefore cleaner) than standard gasoline. If your engine is built for it, the engine buildup is minimized. It also works well as a gasline antifreeze.

 

 

(Not defending ethanol here; just stating facts)

 

The corn, trees, or weeds that are in the field would absorb CO2 if it wasn't used for ethanol anyway, so using that as an offset against the CO2 produced by ethanol is misleading at best if not outright bogus. Can I use that same field as an offset for gasoline if we use the corn to feed people instead?

 

All the corn going to ethanol has increased the price of all food staples. Fields that used to grow wheat are now growing corn, so not only are my Doritos more expensive, but so is a loaf of bread.

 

What about the effect that runoff water from the corn fields has on the environment?

 

This was another environmental policy that was shoved down our throats before they thought it out. I'm all for responsible, reasonable, and incremental environmental policies, that have been well thought. Ethanol just isn't one of them.

[The Irish Doggy]

My understanding is that the experts generally think ethanol from corn is a big problem. Ethanol from cane sugar is better because you get a higher yield of ethanol, but its still problematic. As mentioned, you do have to consider the cost of fertilizers, transportation, etc. in the carbon equation. Its not a perfect carbon in and out cycle.

 

Basically corn ethanol was a way to help farmers' bottom line, not the environment IMO. The goons in Washington got to claim positive environmental PR, and give a kickback to the large farming corporations. I hope ethanol dies quickly.

[Tford]

The corn, trees, or weeds that are in the field would absorb CO2 if it wasn't used for ethanol anyway, so using that as an offset against the CO2 produced by ethanol is misleading at best if not outright bogus. Can I use that same field as an offset for gasoline if we use the corn to feed people instead?

 

All the corn going to ethanol has increased the price of all food staples. Fields that used to grow wheat are now growing corn, so not only are my Doritos more expensive, but so is a loaf of bread.

 

What about the effect that runoff water from the corn fields has on the environment?

 

This was another environmental policy that was shoved down our throats before they thought it out. I'm all for responsible, reasonable, and incremental environmental policies, that have been well thought. Ethanol just isn't one of them.

 

Like I said, I'm trying to throwing a few points out here for the pro-ethanol poiunt of view, even though if you knew where I worked, you'd know that I'm not for it.

 

 

Let's say that a corn field absorbs 2 billion carbon dioxide molecules.

 

That gives you 1 billion ethanol molecules which are burned and become 2 billion carbon dioxide molecules. Net CO2 = 0

 

Suppose that corn is eaten, what happens to the carbon? It becomes waste is some way shape of form which is the 2 billion carbon dioxide molecules. But where do we get the fuel to replace the ethanol we don't have? We pump it out of the ground and it is burned to form another 2 billion+ molecules of carbon dioxide. Net CO2 = 2 billion molecules

 

 

I'm not saying that using corn to make ethanol doesn't have drawbacks but the lack of extra CO2 emissions is a big upside.

 

ETA: grammar

Edited May 19, 2009 by Tford

[Tford]

My understanding is that the experts generally think ethanol from corn is a big problem. Ethanol from cane sugar is better because you get a higher yield of ethanol, but its still problematic. As mentioned, you do have to consider the cost of fertilizers, transportation, etc. in the carbon equation. Its not a perfect carbon in and out cycle.

 

Basically corn ethanol was a way to help farmers' bottom line, not the environment IMO. The goons in Washington got to claim positive environmental PR, and give a kickback to the large farming corporations. I hope ethanol dies quickly.

 

That's right but the market for sugar is always going to be stronger than the market for corn. Hence the corn ethanol deal....

[Tford]

Because I don't want to get into an argument where I'm on the side of the argument that I don't believe in, I'm going to leave at this.

 

 

That writer is a hack and doesn't know anything about the subject he is reporting on. Asking some random mechanic his opinion is not an acceptable substitute for material failure analyses and chemical compatibility studies.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Tford

[bpwallace49]

Excellent analysis Tford!

 

Knowing what you do for a living helps to separate the typical partisan politics that these threads invariable degenerate into.

 

Thanks for the facts from someone in the industry!

[H8tank]

Ethanol is creating disaster all throughout the boating community.

 

If you put ethanol blended fuel in yard equipment you are asking for trouble.

[Perchoutofwater]

Study: Ethanol Won't Solve Our Energy Problems

 

The link above is to a USA Today article. I assume that is still considered a non-biased news source. I would add that it was written prior to the food shortages of the past year, so it doesn't go into all the people dying because we no longer have grain to ship to them because we want to a slight reduction in greenhouse gasses. It also just touches on the pollution to our waterways caused by the production of ethanol.

[bpwallace49]

Wasnt there great promise in using switchgrass as an ethanol source instead of corn? Or talk of utilizing sugar cane from Brazil instead of corn?

[AtomicCEO]

Study: Ethanol Won't Solve Our Energy Problems

 

The link above is to a USA Today article. I assume that is still considered a non-biased news source. I would add that it was written prior to the food shortages of the past year, so it doesn't go into all the people dying because we no longer have grain to ship to them because we want to a slight reduction in greenhouse gasses. It also just touches on the pollution to our waterways caused by the production of ethanol.

 

Have to agree here! Dying children because of ethanol??? How could this have happened?

 

Thank you Perch, for telling us about this one bogus article, and another from 2006's USA Today. We are in your debt for at least raising this issue, even if it's all alarmist oil propaganda.

 

P.S. I don't think ethanol is the answer.

[Perchoutofwater]

Wasnt there great promise in using switchgrass as an ethanol source instead of corn? Or talk of utilizing sugar cane from Brazil instead of corn?

 

I know they were trying to figure out how to use switchgrass, but were having problems with it. I'm not sure if they worked that out or not. Honestly the improved emissions are not enough to justify the use of biofuels at this point, when weighed against increased water pollution, and increased cost of food. The main selling point is to try to lessen our dependency on foreign oil. I don't see a dependency on foreign sugar can bening much better. Ironically the best thing to use is Soy Beans, but since most of the tree huggers don't want to have to pay more for their only source of protein, they got behind corn.

[whoopazz]

We are making ethanol and biodiesel at our plant, or at least researching the most efficient ways to do so, and we do not use any food related sources of biomass (only msw, pulp mill byproducts, forest trimmings, switchgrass, etc.).

Edited May 19, 2009 by whoopazz

[bpwallace49]

increased water pollution, and increased cost of food.

 

Perch the increased food cost is self evident. But how do you figure that using corn for ethanol instead of food creates MORE runoff?

 

If it is used for food or for biofuel, it has the same amount of pesticides, so that dog wont hunt . . .