bpwallace49 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 (edited) Terry Schaivo? Anyone remember this argument from Jeb Bush in Florida? Obviously different cases, but it all boils down to the right of self-determination for medical treatment. Edited May 24, 2009 by bpwallace49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 couldn't read thru all, but my sister's best friend, just 39 yrs old, was diagnosed w/ breast cancer 3 yrs ago, which had matastisized to the brain, she took a turn for the worse this past week and has been given 2 wks to live, will be leaving behind a 5 yr old son & hubby just horrible, makes me so sad...what's really bad is that she told her doc 3 yrs ago, before this all started that she knew something was wrong, he said--"You're too young to get breast cancer" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 Terry Schaivo? Anyone remember this argument from Jeb Bush in Florida? Obviously different cases, but it all boils down to the right of self-determination for medical treatment. apples and oranges. she was unable to communicate and an adult. this situation is a kid and the mom is making this decision. he doesnt know any better. i am all for an adult killing themselves, as long as it doesnt complicate my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 ........and you have evidence of that right? And don't mean anecdotal (eg "well my buddy's aunt's sister ate a ton of flax seed and I heard they said it cured her" etc). Until then, I would say your post qualifies as bogus hearsay at best and irresponsibly asinine at worst. PS I am by no means disagreeing that flax seed isn't worth trying (along with many other dietary changes which COULD make a diff) or that chemo is always the answer by any means, but there are MANY instances in which chemo is the best (if not only) treatment for cancer, even though it does generally fall into the "last resort" category. To casually dismiss that in favor of simply eating flax seed is pretty ridiculous. Oh and speaking of research, might want to do a little into his condition and chemo's success rate w/it. That all said, there is another issue here: the one of a parent's right to choose a treatment option for their child vs the right of gov't to intervene. I'm not trying to get into a debate of chemo vs alternative medicine... I'm just saying that there's a reason behind why I believe in alternative medicine.... it's not for you to believe me, I was giving instances as to why I believe in this and it's been stated that these methods can help.....and from what I've seen, they worked... maybe I made it all up....you will never know because it's the innernetz and it's not just the flaxseeds....they can calm it, but I think it has more to do with the high amounts of iron in that persons diet....and another thing I know nothing about which is Tian Xian liquid..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojoMan Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 So, what we are saying is that we are morally obligated to undergo treatment? Let's take this hypothetical then... I'm in an accident. I am on life support with no chance of recovery. In this situation, I have asked my wife to pull the plug, so to speak. Now, should the unthinkable happen and I find one of my minor children in a similar situation, are you telling me that I have to keep them plugged in to machines and that I am no longer allowed to make decisions for them as the legal guardian? I am torn on this, as I know there is nothing I wouldn't do for my children, and I also feel though that while it is the place of a doctor to present treatment options, it is up to the patient or in this case the legal guardian to process those options and make a decision they are content with, and it is not the place of the courts to dictate a course of action for treatment. I too have seen the side effects of chemotherapy close up, and I have also seen the full recovery people have made due to undergoing chemotherapy treatment. In the former, it was my wife's stepfather who recently passed. He went through several rounds of chemo. It may have extended his life some, but it took a vicious toll on him. He finally decided that the treatment was not worth it. I can;t say that I disagreed with his decision. My mother in law was diagnosed with breast cancer about 9-10 years ago, went through chemo treatment and has been cancer free ever since. Not sure where I am going with this, just that I am torn on what is "right" in this sort of situation. BC, the hypothetical scenario you posed here has almost nothing to do with this case. In your scenario, you've had tramuatic (presumably brain) injury and "have no chance of recovery." Your chance of survival = 0. Your chance of any quality of life in the short or long run = 0. This boy has Hodgkin's Disease, a highly curable form of lymphoma. The chance of HD killing this patient is much lower than his chance of cure when adequately treated with conventional medical therapies. The chance that HD will kill this patient if untreated - basically 100%. And, even if the HD is too advanced for cure now, we would expect some lengthening of survival and improvement in quality of life. That assessment is not so easy though...lots of guesswork when you have to guess how much time is left and how good the QoL will be versus the toxicity of the therapy. That makes all the difference in the world how the person with power ot attorney should act when assessing your case and this case. In addition, the child, while he could be highly intelligent with excellent judgment, is a minor. Juveniles are understood to generally be more impulsive and short-signted than adults. Thus, we as a society have chosen to select an adult as the decision-maker. It doesn't work in all cases. In this case, the child, understandably, having undergone one or more cycles of chemo and/or radiation, thinks he would rather die. That is perfectly understandable from his perspective. The mother, IMO, is not acting responsably. If she is not captured and forced to submit the son for treatment, I predict the "alternative therapy" will fail, his disease will progress, and the mother will, in desperation, present the child for aggressive therapy. The disesase will be too advanced and treatment will fail. I've seen it happen before; it is sad when these gullible people make bad decisions. The child is the victim here. BTW, for chemotherapy, the thinking was that you really need to be treated to the maximum tolerability or to the full protocol right away while your body has the most physiologic reserve. If you fart around and take submaximal/suboptimal therapy or interrupt cycles needlessly (the chemo schedule frequently gets pushed back because the patient can't tolerate it), you give the tumor cells the chance to self-select to be chemo-resistant. This is similar to antibiotic resistance. The thinking coulda changed though; Chargerz can correct me if the thinking has changed. If the thinking is still current, this mother is doing even a greater disservice to her child by electing to interrupt therapy. Avernus, I have a bridge to sell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 In this case, the child, understandably, having undergone one or more cycles of chemo and/or radiation, thinks he would rather die. I think he's had just one treatment and simply trusts his mother that the alternative methods will work - also who knows how much his (and of course her) religious beliefs come into play as well. The mother, IMO, is not acting responsably. Sure she is. Just not smartly. If she is not captured and forced to submit the son for treatment, I predict the "alternative therapy" will fail, his disease will progress, and the mother will, in desperation, present the child for aggressive therapy. The disesase will be too advanced and treatment will fail. I've seen it happen before; it is sad when these gullible people make bad decisions. The child is the victim here.I agree execept even then I question if she would submit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I'm not trying to get into a debate of chemo vs alternative medicine... I'm just saying that there's a reason behind why I believe in alternative medicine.... it's not for you to believe me, I was giving instances as to why I believe in this and it's been stated that these methods can help.....and from what I've seen, they worked... maybe I made it all up....you will never know because it's the innernetz and it's not just the flaxseeds....they can calm it, but I think it has more to do with the high amounts of iron in that persons diet....and another thing I know nothing about which is Tian Xian liquid..... Is what you suggest intended as preventative measures ? Are you saying include Iron , flax seed and Tian Xian in your every day diet and it reduces the risk of cancer or taking these after you are diagnosed has the possibility of getting rid of the cancer you have ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 apples and oranges. she was unable to communicate and an adult. this situation is a kid and the mom is making this decision. he doesnt know any better. i am all for an adult killing themselves, as long as it doesnt complicate my life. You could not be MORE wrong. Schiavo was under the care of her husband, and communicated her desires BEFORE incapacitation. Like it or not, the mom IS the legal guardian of the child (just like Schiavo's husband when she became unable to communicate). Whether he knows better as a child or not is not under debate. the mom "could" be under prosecution for child endangerment . . . but how is this different than good ol Jeb Bush trying to dictate how a husband (who has power of attorney and is her legal guardian once she became incapacitated) should care for his wife? Ethical and moral? Debatable . . . Need for legislation (like the Republicans in Florida tried to do for Schiavo) is needlessly interfering in the lives of private citizens . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Like it or not, the mom IS the legal guardian of the child (just like Schiavo's husband when she became unable to communicate). Whether he knows better as a child or not is not under debate. Another factor was she was still married and fled with the child without the father's knowledge. The father was trying to work with authorities to locate them with no avail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Is what you suggest intended as preventative measures ? Are you saying include Iron , flax seed and Tian Xian in your every day diet and it reduces the risk of cancer or taking these after you are diagnosed has the possibility of getting rid of the cancer you have ? I've read about it working and I've witnessed it...2 for 2 in that sense and 2 for 2 being a co-worker and someone that actually lives down the street... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I've read about it working and I've witnessed it...2 for 2 in that sense and 2 for 2 being a co-worker and someone that actually lives down the street... Great to know. Thanks for the info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Another factor was she was still married and fled with the child without the father's knowledge. The father was trying to work with authorities to locate them with no avail. Excellent point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H8tank Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 che, always pointing the nasty finger. Did a Republican rape you or something? Oh and speaking of research, might want to do a little into his condition and chemo's success rate w/it. In hodgkins, it's 80% effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Mom and son just returned to MN on the news this a.m. No police were present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 torn on this. on the one hand, nothing infuriates me more than idiot parents ignoring their doctors and letting their children die because they think praying or munching flaxseeds will somehow save them. but part of living in an ostensibly free society is allowing people to make idiotic decisions, even if it ends up killing them and/or their kids. it's a tougher call when kids are involved, but I do feel as a matter of philosophical principle that this is the parents' question to answer and not the government's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 (edited) torn on this. on the one hand, nothing infuriates me more than idiot parents ignoring their doctors and letting their children die because they think praying or munching flaxseeds will somehow save them. but part of living in an ostensibly free society is allowing people to make idiotic decisions, even if it ends up killing them and/or their kids. it's a tougher call when kids are involved, but I do feel as a matter of philosophical principle that this is the parents' question to answer and not the government's. i agree, but where do we draw the line with stupid parents??? car seats? immunizations? nutrition? disciple techniques? if youre an adult, do as you please as long as it doesnt cost the rest of us money or time. Edited May 26, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 i agree, but where do we draw the line with stupid parents??? car seats? immunizations? nutrition? disciple techniques? if youre an adult, do as you please as long as it doesnt cost the rest of us money or time. Religious education? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 Religious education? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-c...0,3864726.story TAMPA -- With much of her lower body consumed by cancer, Leslee Flasch finally faced the truth: The herbal supplements and special diet were not working. Flasch had sought a natural cure. Instead, a deadly disease ran its natural course. And the herb peddlers who sold her hope in a bottle?"Whatever money she had left in life, they got most of it," said a sister, Sharon Flasch. "They prey on the sick public with the belief that this stuff can help them, whether they can or can't." Some people who try unproven remedies risk only money. But people with cancer can lose their only chance of beating the disease by skipping conventional treatment or by mixing in other therapies. Even harmless-sounding vitamins and "natural" supplements can interfere with cancer medicines or affect hormones that help cancer grow. Most cancers spread slowly, so people can be fooled into thinking herbs or special diets are keeping it at bay.A potentially curable cancer may become untreatable, as Leslee Flasch found out when she belatedly sought the surgery that had been recommended. Having such an advanced cancer without standard medical care must have caused excruciating pain, said one of her physicians, Dr. Lodovico Balducci at Moffitt Cancer Center in Tampa. Leslee Flasch believed that dietary supplements would make her stronger and help fight the cancer -- a belief her other surviving sister, Donna Flasch, still shares despite Leslee's death. How 'natural' therapies can hurt--Financially: Pills that seem cheap can cost a lot if they are worthless or replace real medicine, fresh fruits and vegetables, or other things known to boost health. --Medically: Trying an alternative remedy can delay effective treatment, allowing the cancer to spread. --Physically: Supplements, even those claimed to be natural, have biological effects and can interact dangerously with medicines. --Psychologically: Futile treatment raises false hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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