polksalet Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 That what was possible? That people who seem trustworthy are sometimes not? Wow. . .you're amazing. I don't know what "take care of their businsess" means. You either trust that a financial institution is sound and you invest with them, or you dig a hole in the backyard and stick your cash in it. If the financial world, the government and all the regulators were all fooled my Madoff it's not possible for a private citizen to have suspected fraud. As I said before, I fault people for a lack of diversification, but not for investing in Madoff's funds. So it is a wise investing strategy to just blindly trust someone without doing any research of your own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTed46 Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 So it is a wise investing strategy to just blindly trust someone without doing any research of your own? He had a reputation, a solid business background and a large client base. Do you really feel that its not possible for some people to trust him? Some Hedge Funds were returning high yields, granted this wasn't a hedge fund but still. I wouldn't invest large sums of money to places I do not know but on the other hand I can see how these people were victimized and I have sympathy for all of them. I also forgive their ignorance here, eventhough I can see how they were duped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheikYerbuti Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 So it is a wise investing strategy to just blindly trust someone without doing any research of your own? At this point I'll assume you're . I'm done here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojoMan Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I got a question for the law/finance types. I thought there's some kind of law about ill-gotten gains. Seems that basically all of Madoff's (and associates) assets are ill-gotten then. While I would guess that some of the billions he made went up in blow, ladies, and bad investments, he has substantial tangible assets. Would it be possible to liquidate his assets and pay his investor something to the dollar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 That what was possible? That people who seem trustworthy are sometimes not? Wow. . .you're amazing. I don't know what "take care of their businsess" means. You either trust that a financial institution is sound and you invest with them, or you dig a hole in the backyard and stick your cash in it. If the financial world, the government and all the regulators were all fooled my Madoff it's not possible for a private citizen to have suspected fraud. As I said before, I fault people for a lack of diversification, but not for investing in Madoff's funds. If it looks too good to be true, more than likely it is too good to be true. Investing whether it be in the market or in a small business is all about risk/reward. The greater the reward, the higher the risk to get it. The people that invested with Madoff realized a very nice reward for quite a few years, and it appeared as though there was relatively little risk. To me that is the definition of too good to be true. That alone should have tipped someone off. The people that invested with Madoff were in many ways just as greedy as he was. Madoff is a POS and deserves absolutely no sympathy, but I was thinking what did he do? He stole money, and got 150 years. The average murder conviction pulls a sentence of just over 22 years. Does nobody else have a problem with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuke'em ttg Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 some Finance guy ripped off some people, is that it? what's the short version,what's the fraud....1st i've ever heard of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I got a question for the law/finance types. I thought there's some kind of law about ill-gotten gains. Seems that basically all of Madoff's (and associates) assets are ill-gotten then. While I would guess that some of the billions he made went up in blow, ladies, and bad investments, he has substantial tangible assets. Would it be possible to liquidate his assets and pay his investor something to the dollar? His tangible assets and those of his wife (less $2.5 million) are in the process of being liquidated now. If it looks too good to be true, more than likely it is too good to be true. Absolutely true. Madoff is a POS and deserves absolutely no sympathy, but I was thinking what did he do? He stole money, and got 150 years. The average murder conviction pulls a sentence of just over 22 years. Does nobody else have a problem with that? No problem at all. Pour encourager les autres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 His tangible assets and those of his wife (less $2.5 million) are in the process of being liquidated now. Absolutely true. No problem at all. Pour encourager les autres. Nice Voltaire reference, but I still have a problem with a thief getting more time than a murderer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Nice Voltaire reference, but I still have a problem with a thief getting more time than a murderer. I think you've got to look at the bigger picture. Unless you believe that all murderers of whatever degree should be incarcerated forever, it's clear there is going to be some overlap between the two crimes of murder (remember there are degrees of murder) and colossal fraud. There's also the question of ruination - a murderer, at a minimum, takes one life and may damage several others. Madoff utterly destroyed thousands of lives monetarily, including those of people reliant on many of the charities that went tits up. You've also got to look, I think, at the level of this crime within it's own group of fraud. Given that an embezzler of, say, a hundred grand might get ten years without damaging anyone materially, isn't it fair that Madoff with his billions embezzled / stolen should get the rest of his life in jail? He is in his 70s after all and it's not like this was a one-off crime of opportunity or rage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTed46 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) If it looks too good to be true, more than likely it is too good to be true. Investing whether it be in the market or in a small business is all about risk/reward. The greater the reward, the higher the risk to get it. The people that invested with Madoff realized a very nice reward for quite a few years, and it appeared as though there was relatively little risk. To me that is the definition of too good to be true. That alone should have tipped someone off. The people that invested with Madoff were in many ways just as greedy as he was. I seriously can't believe you are writing that. As I mentioned before, there are ways of making his return. During that same time some Hedge Funds were making what he was giving and more so what exactly is so far fetched about this idea to the common man? You say greed, but wouldn't one want to make the most out of his investment? Then ALL investments are greed, correct? Your logic is very flawed, this wasn't a shoemaker offering 20% return, this was a well established individual with a reputation. I see no problem Madoff getting more than a murderer. He financially screwed alot of people and many of their lives are over in some shape or form. a murder shouldnt get out of jail IMO (just to throw it out there). I will add this, he single handedly destroyed the trust of many organizations and was a part of our recession. He destroyed the trust of many legit establishments. He has done alot more damage to alot more people that a person killing a man (I am not sympathetic to either crimes). Edited June 30, 2009 by MrTed46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Nice Voltaire reference, but I still have a problem with a thief getting more time than a murderer. so do u think murderers dont get punished enough or madoff got too much? i think that murderers get off too easy and that madoff got what he deserved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTed46 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) i think that murderers get off too easy and that madoff got what he deserved. I agree with you. Actually, there is nothing we can do to madoff to get what he deserves. Even the death penalty will be "light" in my eyes. The one thing we can do is go after his wife and kids and make sure they are broke at the end of it. But, we can't do that Madoff was living large with his scam for many years and took care of his family. One of the few times where a criminals acts might be worth it IMO. This angers me. Edited June 30, 2009 by MrTed46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) I seriously can't believe you are writing that. As I mentioned before, there are ways of making his return. During that same time some Hedge Funds were making what he was giving and more so what exactly is so far fetched about this idea to the common man? You say greed, but wouldn't one want to make the most out of his investment? Then ALL investments are greed, correct? Your logic is very flawed, this wasn't a shoemaker offering 20% return, this was a well established individual with a reputation. I see no problem Madoff getting more than a murderer. He financially screwed alot of people and many of their lives are over in some shape or form. a murder shouldnt get out of jail IMO (just to throw it out there). I will add this, he single handedly destroyed the trust of many organizations and was a part of our recession. He destroyed the trust of many legit establishments. He has done alot more damage to alot more people that a person killing a man (I am not sympathetic to either crimes). madoff's supposed strategies should not have and could not have generated the returns he was stating. http://online.barrons.com/article/SB122931...ing_price_daily Edited June 30, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTed46 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 madoff's supposed strategies should not have and could not have generated the returns he was stating. I agree with you, but there were reputable men who were fooled by him. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have seen it coming but I am saying it's not far fetches to be fooled by him. And IMO if it's not far fetched to be fooled by this man then I am VERY sympathetic to those who lose money. The thing about this situation that makes it unique is his reputation and fame. This changes the perspective of many investors and is another element that adds to my sympathy. we have to protect the common investor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I agree with you, but there were reputable men who were fooled by him. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have seen it coming but I am saying it's not far fetches to be fooled by him. And IMO if it's not far fetched to be fooled by this man then I am VERY sympathetic to those who lose money. The thing about this situation that makes it unique is his reputation and fame. This changes the perspective of many investors and is another element that adds to my sympathy. we have to protect the common investor Perch is right though - it looked too good to be true and it was. There were several people raising alarms years ago and those that ignored said alarms, especially on the SEC, should also be doing time for dereliction of duty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) I agree with you, but there were reputable men who were fooled by him. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have seen it coming but I am saying it's not far fetches to be fooled by him. And IMO if it's not far fetched to be fooled by this man then I am VERY sympathetic to those who lose money. The thing about this situation that makes it unique is his reputation and fame. This changes the perspective of many investors and is another element that adds to my sympathy. we have to protect the common investor i hear ya. i think alot of it came down to laziness on the part of the feeder funds and the sec. they saw the results and just funneled money to him without doing any homework. some were maybe in on it as well. we need to def protect the common investor. the thing that irks me the most in this whole thing is that these so called 'rich' investors shouldve known better. but we bail out the people that supposedly got scammed by crooked mortgage brokers. both groups got skrewed. both groups couldve done more homework on the subject. buying a 500k house on 50k year was too good to be true. treat them the same. Edited June 30, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 so do u think murderers dont get punished enough or madoff got too much? i think that murderers get off too easy and that madoff got what he deserved. I agree with you. If you go back to my original post in this thread, you will note I said I have no sympathy for Madoff. I was just making the sad point that a thief will have to spend life in prison, but the average murderer only gets 20 years. I think it is a sad commentary on what we value in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 the thing that irks me the most in this whole thing is that these so called 'rich' investors shouldve known better. but we bail out the people that supposedly got scammed by crooked mortgage brokers. both groups got skrewed. both groups couldve done more homework on the subject. buying a 500k house on 50k year was too good to be true. treat them the same. I agree, we shouldn't have bailed out anyone, or for that matter anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojoMan Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Complete dumba$$ question: Did Madoff actually do any investing or did he just pay returns out of a bank account funded by new investments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Complete dumba$$ question: Did Madoff actually do any investing or did he just pay returns out of a bank account funded by new investments? most ponzi schemes are legit in the beginning. i would guess that he did originally invest then got over his head and the ponzi began. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 the thing that irks me the most in this whole thing is that these so called 'rich' investors shouldve known better. but we bail out the people that supposedly got scammed by crooked mortgage brokers. both groups got skrewed. both groups couldve done more homework on the subject. buying a 500k house on 50k year was too good to be true. treat them the same. we've been over this EXACT same thing before: why are homeowners that were swindled into buying too much house only victims??? but rich people swindled by madoff told you shouldve known better. it looked too good to be true?? Are you saying that the Securities Investor Protection Corporation isn't going to give at least some money back to the Madoff "victims"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Complete dumba$$ question: Did Madoff actually do any investing or did he just pay returns out of a bank account funded by new investments? I read this morning that he never invested anything but I find that difficult to credit without dozens of people being in on it, including several SEC operatives. More likely he had guaranteed certain returns and when he failed to make those targets, he padded the returns with money from new investors and that's how it began. Once he was in that hole, he couldn't get out and the thing mushroomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 we've been over this EXACT same thing before: Are you saying that the Securities Investor Protection Corporation isn't going to give at least some money back to the Madoff "victims"? i dont disagree with you that the sipc will give back some money. its alot less than you think too. this is my question.....why is one group considered a victim of foul play while the other shouldve known better and f them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Madoff is a POS and deserves absolutely no sympathy, but I was thinking what did he do? He stole money, and got 150 years. The average murder conviction pulls a sentence of just over 22 years. Does nobody else have a problem with that? madoff made more powerful people look foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 i dont disagree with you that the sipc will give back some money. its alot less than you think too. this is my question.....why is one group considered a victim of foul play while the other shouldve known better and f them? As far as I'm concerned both groups should have known better. But then again I'm a cold heated conservative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.