More bad economic news

[Ursa Majoris]

I know it's harsh, but your bad luck and/or bad decisions do not create a mortgage on my life. Period. You guys spout off about "civilization" means that you have to be willing to be forced at the point of a gun to take care of your neighbor, but I think civilization is a contract to protect rights. At least how it was first set up in this country.

Primitive nonsense, outdated a century ago. Your idea of civilization and mine are evidently diametrically opposed.

[Jackass]

Why doesn't every house in amerika have a sprinkler fire suppression system inside?

 

Why doesn't every vehicle on the road have 23 airbags, 8 point seating harness and mandate drivers wear helmets?

 

Explain how those questions are relevant and i will be happy to answer them.

[westvirginia]

Primitive nonsense, outdated a century ago. Your idea of civilization and mine are evidently diametrically opposed.

 

So be it, but it certainly isn't nonsense. The other side of the spectrum ("diametrically opposed" - your words, not mine) is socialism, which has drown people and countries in complete and abject failure everywhere it's been used. You might say you want just a little and not "full-blown" socialism, which to me is like saying you just want a little of the disease - not the whole thing. That's what's utter nonsense.

[Yukon Cornelius]

So be it, but it certainly isn't nonsense. The other side of the spectrum ("diametrically opposed" - your words, not mine) is socialism, which has drown people and countries in complete and abject failure everywhere it's been used. You might say you want just a little and not "full-blown" socialism, which to me is like saying you just want a little of the disease - not the whole thing. That's what's utter nonsense.

take a look at why ,when and how major civilizations along the history time line fail and you will see a pattern.

[Ursa Majoris]

So be it, but it certainly isn't nonsense. The other side of the spectrum ("diametrically opposed" - your words, not mine) is socialism, which has drown people and countries in complete and abject failure everywhere it's been used. You might say you want just a little and not "full-blown" socialism, which to me is like saying you just want a little of the disease - not the whole thing. That's what's utter nonsense.

You can see it that way if you want to. I'll choose to see your view as unadulterated Randism, where nothing is done for anyone and each individual is an island, much like a herd of prey animals migrating. May the devil take the hindmost.

[Azazello1313]

I'll choose to see your view as unadulterated Randism

 

more like unadulterated Locke-ism. or unadulterated Jeffersonianism, if you'd like to put it in a more American context. what wva is articulating predates Ayn f'n Rand by centuries.

[Ursa Majoris]

more like unadulterated Locke-ism. or unadulterated Jeffersonianism, if you'd like to put it in a more American context. what wva is articulating predates Ayn f'n Rand by centuries.

Regardless, that's precisely my point - a view of civilization that is long since outmoded.

[Azazello1313]

Regardless, that's precisely my point - a view of civilization that is long since outmoded.

 

you may think so, I disagree strongly. it's the philosophical foundation behind our nation and our constitution, and I happen to think it's still the best political framework human beings have yet come up with. exactly which view would you replace it with?

[Jimmy Neutron]

take a look at why ,when and how major civilizations along the history time line fail and you will see a pattern.

 

Yeah - over-extended governments.

[bushwacked]

Yeah - over-extended governments.

 

 

I'm not the history buff that Ursa is, but I'd say the causation you are trying to insinuate isn't near as strong as a multitude of other factors. In fact, I would guess that in many cases it's contrary.

Edited November 3, 2010 by bushwacked

[Jimmy Neutron]

I'm not the history buff that Ursa is, but I'd say the causation you are trying to insinuate isn't near as strong as a multitude of other factors. In fact, I would guess that in many cases it's contrary.

 

Maybe in a few aspects. Not a few were ruined by nation building - trying to keep outposts around the globe and expand territory. That depletes resources - over-extension.

 

Debt.

 

Diminishing returns to those that pay taxes & are the engine driving the economy.

 

Not changing with technology.

 

There are lots of reasons. I don't believe I can think of a nation that collapsed as a result of not having nationalized health care.

[bushwacked]

China must be orders of magnitude closer to collapse then we are if over-extension of govt. is a primary factor.

[Ursa Majoris]

unadulterated Randism, where nothing is done for anyone and each individual is an island, much like a herd of prey animals migrating. May the devil take the hindmost.

 

 

you may think so, I disagree strongly. it's the philosophical foundation behind our nation and our constitution, and I happen to think it's still the best political framework human beings have yet come up with. exactly which view would you replace it with?

You omitted the second half of my quote. Many of you fine upstanding self-reliant righties see yourselves as some kind of mythic hero, face turned indomitably to the wind as you search the horizon, like a cover on some silly bodice ripper book. You fail, IMO, to appreciate the things that are presented to you, the things that didn't just appear out of nowhere, the things that (in most cases) liberals - not conservatives - who actually made a difference put in place.

 

Civilization is not just a contract to protect individual rights (although that is certainly an important part), it is a cooperative effort to progress in order to bring the maximum benefit to the maximum number. That's progressivism.

[Deathpig]

You omitted the second half of my quote. Many of you fine upstanding self-reliant righties see yourselves as some kind of mythic hero, face turned indomitably to the wind as you search the horizon, like a cover on some silly bodice ripper book. You fail, IMO, to appreciate the things that are presented to you, the things that didn't just appear out of nowhere, the things that (in most cases) liberals - not conservatives - who actually made a difference put in place.

 

Civilization is not just a contract to protect individual rights (although that is certainly an important part), it is a cooperative effort to progress in order to bring the maximum benefit to the maximum number. That's progressivism.

 

Can I be the first to point out that you didn't answer the question?

 

I'd also add that I'm pretty sure the U.S. has the most well-off people in every economic class of anywhere in the world. Additionally, I'm not sure how you think a civilization is going to force its citizens to cooperate, but I'm pretty sure that coersion and compulsion aren't the same thing as cooperation.

 

I'm not saying there aren't warts on the frog, but name some other countries (or practical philosophies) that achieve your stated goal better than what the U.S., as constituted, offers.

[gbpfan1231]

You omitted the second half of my quote. Many of you fine upstanding self-reliant righties see yourselves as some kind of mythic hero, face turned indomitably to the wind as you search the horizon, like a cover on some silly bodice ripper book. You fail, IMO, to appreciate the things that are presented to you, the things that didn't just appear out of nowhere, the things that (in most cases) liberals - not conservatives - who actually made a difference put in place.

 

Civilization is not just a contract to protect individual rights (although that is certainly an important part), it is a cooperative effort to progress in order to bring the maximum benefit to the maximum number. That's progressivism.

Didn't the lefty liberals just TAKE AWAY the Happy Meal and little toy - yea I want my life determined by the liberals because this place will be GREEEAT!!!!

 

Government knows best - let us tell you how to feed your children and if you want to just sit at home for years no problem we have a nice entitlement for that. What a joke!!

Edited November 4, 2010 by gbpfan1231

[Ursa Majoris]

Can I be the first to point out that you didn't answer the question?

 

I'd also add that I'm pretty sure the U.S. has the most well-off people in every economic class of anywhere in the world. Additionally, I'm not sure how you think a civilization is going to force its citizens to cooperate, but I'm pretty sure that coersion and compulsion aren't the same thing as cooperation.

 

I'm not saying there aren't warts on the frog, but name some other countries (or practical philosophies) that achieve your stated goal better than what the U.S., as constituted, offers.

I didn't answer the question because the question was:

 

exactly which view would you replace it with?

 

in response to my opinion that WV's view of what constitutes a civilization - please note I did not say an American civilization but civilization in general - is archaic and does not stand in the context of 2010, never mind all-encompassing globalism. I instead offered a view that civilization is much more of a cooperation than a simple contract to protect rights (I also said that was an important part).

 

The question therefore asks what I would replace the Constitution with, and the answer, of course, is that I wouldn't. This question followed a statement:

 

it's the philosophical foundation behind our nation and our constitution

 

thus setting me up to answer a question about replacement of the Constitution when I was making a point about differing views of civilization.

 

You are fairly new to these discussions and your contributions are very much appreciated, at least by me, but please know that Az is a past master at adjusting the thrust of a discussion. This is an example of that.

[bpwallace49]

Many of you fine upstanding self-reliant righties see yourselves as some kind of mythic hero, face turned indomitably to the wind as you search the horizon, like a cover on some silly bodice ripper book. .

 

Ok . . that was funny.

[Deathpig]

Ahh, I understand. I interpreted the question as more of a 'which philosophers would you pick out' or 'what aspects of different countries would you a la carte' kind of question. For example, the origins of the U.S. point to guys like Locke, Smith, Hobbes, etc. I was actually more interested who would be on your list (in terms of influences) and less about how you're going to rewrite the Constitution or something.

[Azazello1313]

Many of you fine upstanding self-reliant righties see yourselves as some kind of mythic hero, face turned indomitably to the wind as you search the horizon, like a cover on some silly bodice ripper book. You fail, IMO, to appreciate the things that are presented to you, the things that didn't just appear out of nowhere...

 

total f*cking bullchit. I fully recognize that, even born into a broken, middle to lower middle class family in the united states in the 1970s, I find myself in among the most fortunate positions of any people ever born into this planet. not only are my material comforts among the best human beings have ever experienced, I have almost instant access to a whole wealth of art and literature and music and every other achievement of culture you can imagine. my thing is to try NOT to think things presented to me appeared out of nowhere, out of anything I did or deserved, but out of the happy circumstance created by countless generations of people striving to create a better, more interdependent society. I have the deepest appreciation for what brought us, as a select little subset of the species at a most fortunate time in history, to the happy situation in which we find ourselves -- and I want to celebrate and preserve the things that got us to this point. in particular, in this instance, I want to celebrate the notions of life, liberty, and property that founded this nation and, throughout the western world have created so much mutual prosperity and so much cultural flourish that it boggles the mind. and here you accuse me of failing to appreciate the things that are presented to me. GFY.

[Clubfoothead]

total f*cking bullchit. I fully recognize that, even born into a broken, middle to lower middle class family in the united states in the 1970s, I find myself in among the most fortunate positions of any people ever born into this planet. not only are my material comforts among the best human beings have ever experienced, I have almost instant access to a whole wealth of art and literature and music and every other achievement of culture you can imagine. my thing is to try NOT to think things presented to me appeared out of nowhere, out of anything I did or deserved, but out of the happy circumstance created by countless generations of people striving to create a better, more interdependent society. I have the deepest appreciation for what brought us, as a select little subset of the species at a most fortunate time in history, to the happy situation in which we find ourselves -- and I want to celebrate and preserve the things that got us to this point. in particular, in this instance, I want to celebrate the notions of life, liberty, and property that founded this nation and, throughout the western world have created so much mutual prosperity and so much cultural flourish that it boggles the mind. and here you accuse me of failing to appreciate the things that are presented to me. GFY.

 

 

You use a lot of we's and us. Just because you've been lucky, don't speak for everyone else.

[SEC=UGA]

Yeah - over-extended governments.

 

Yes and no... I mainly blame diversity, lack of cultural homogeneity, as the root of the fall of many nations and empires. Geographic scope is also to blame (I guess the diverse cultures in the large geography is also very relevant here, as well.)

[Ursa Majoris]

total f*cking bullchit. I fully recognize that, even born into a broken, middle to lower middle class family in the united states in the 1970s, I find myself in among the most fortunate positions of any people ever born into this planet. not only are my material comforts among the best human beings have ever experienced, I have almost instant access to a whole wealth of art and literature and music and every other achievement of culture you can imagine. my thing is to try NOT to think things presented to me appeared out of nowhere, out of anything I did or deserved, but out of the happy circumstance created by countless generations of people striving to create a better, more interdependent society. I have the deepest appreciation for what brought us, as a select little subset of the species at a most fortunate time in history, to the happy situation in which we find ourselves -- and I want to celebrate and preserve the things that got us to this point. in particular, in this instance, I want to celebrate the notions of life, liberty, and property that founded this nation and, throughout the western world have created so much mutual prosperity and so much cultural flourish that it boggles the mind. and here you accuse me of failing to appreciate the things that are presented to me. GFY.

Most excellent. Got you, you sanctimonious f**kpig.

[Perchoutofwater]

You can see it that way if you want to. I'll choose to see your view as unadulterated Randism, where nothing is done for anyone and each individual is an island, much like a herd of prey animals migrating. May the devil take the hindmost.

 

 

You omitted the second half of my quote. Many of you fine upstanding self-reliant righties see yourselves as some kind of mythic hero, face turned indomitably to the wind as you search the horizon, like a cover on some silly bodice ripper book. You fail, IMO, to appreciate the things that are presented to you, the things that didn't just appear out of nowhere, the things that (in most cases) liberals - not conservatives - who actually made a difference put in place.

 

Civilization is not just a contract to protect individual rights (although that is certainly an important part), it is a cooperative effort to progress in order to bring the maximum benefit to the maximum number. That's progressivism.

 

 

total f*cking bullchit. I fully recognize that, even born into a broken, middle to lower middle class family in the united states in the 1970s, I find myself in among the most fortunate positions of any people ever born into this planet. not only are my material comforts among the best human beings have ever experienced, I have almost instant access to a whole wealth of art and literature and music and every other achievement of culture you can imagine. my thing is to try NOT to think things presented to me appeared out of nowhere, out of anything I did or deserved, but out of the happy circumstance created by countless generations of people striving to create a better, more interdependent society. I have the deepest appreciation for what brought us, as a select little subset of the species at a most fortunate time in history, to the happy situation in which we find ourselves -- and I want to celebrate and preserve the things that got us to this point. in particular, in this instance, I want to celebrate the notions of life, liberty, and property that founded this nation and, throughout the western world have created so much mutual prosperity and so much cultural flourish that it boggles the mind. and here you accuse me of failing to appreciate the things that are presented to me. GFY.

 

+1 On what Az said. I'd also add that most of us realize that we are fortunate and wish to help the less fortunate, only we want to do it voluntarily rather than have the threat of jail and property seizure forcing us to help. I know that my family is very involved in charitable organizations. If I had to guess my wife spends about 20 hours a week working with charities, my parents both spend about 5 to 10 hours a week each, and I typically spend about 5 hours a week working with charities. Most of the work we do is soliciting donations from our other "fortunate" friends, or planning events to raise donations. We donate time and money to these organizations which are typically much more efficient than the government bureaucracies that in many cases do the same work. We would donate a much larger amount if the government didn't force us to pay so much in taxes to support the inefficient government bureaucracies. Your idea that just because we are against the government overstepping it's constitutional bounds and providing services it was never intended to provide, that we are cold heared bastards is just plain wrong. It is an arrogant assumption that is misplaced.

[Azazello1313]

 

You use a lot of we's and us. Just because you've been lucky, don't speak for everyone else.

 

yeah, when and where do you think you'd be luckier to have been born?

[Azazello1313]

Most excellent. Got you, you sanctimonious f**kpig.

 

you're the one preening about "bodice-rippers", and I'm the sanctimonious f**kpig?