South Carolina taking up states rights over the light bulb

[Perchoutofwater]

Lights On in South Carolina? Lawmakers Introduce Bill to Restore Incandescent Bulbs

 

Published February 28, 2011

 

| FoxNews.com

 

AP

 

Lights. Made in South Carolina.

 

That's the label a group of lawmakers is looking to put on incandescent light bulbs soon to be made scarce as a result of federal legislation.

 

Six Republican and one Democratic lawmakers in the Palmetto State have introduced legislation to get around the federal law and bring back the incandescent bulb through in-state only sales.

 

Bill sponsor Rep. Bill Sandifer said the federal government had "far overstepped the bounds of the Constitution" with its proposal. He said the South Carolina bill could open the door for incandescent bulb manufacturers, which don't have a presence in the state to Sandifer's knowledge, to set up shop locally. But he said the bill was not introduced for economic stimulus reasons. He said people just don't want to be forced into buying a specific kind of bulb, which could either be more expensive or less effective, or both.

 

"The bottom line is that the people of South Carolina really do not like to have, quote, big brother, telling them what kind of bulbs to light our homes," Sandifer said.

 

The South Carolina Incandescent Light Bulb Freedom Act would require the bulb to be manufactured and sold within the state, thereby evading Commerce Clause arguments used to force South Carolina to comply with a federal regulation that raises the energy efficient minimums on light bulbs. While the new rules, to go in effect next year, don't ban incandescents outright, the energy requirements would exclude incandescents and lead to wider use of LEDs (light-emitting diode) or CFLs (compact flourescent lamp).

 

"An incandescent light bulb that is manufactured commercially or privately in this state from basic materials that can be manufactured without the inclusion of any significant parts imported from another state and is offered for sale and sold for use only within the borders of this state is deemed to be in the stream of intrastate commerce, rather than interstate commerce, and is not subject to federal law or federal regulation," reads the legislation introduced last Wednesday in the General Assembly.

 

The bill notes that the item may include some "generic insignificant parts" imported from other states, including steel, glass, springs, screws, nuts pins and ceramics but their incorporation is as a raw material and not a manufactured good.

 

"The incorporation of generic and insignificant parts imported from ... which have other manufacturing or consumer product applications does not bring the incandescent light bulb into interstate commerce and does not subject them to federal law or federal regulation," the bill reads.

 

FOX News

 

This really isn't about lights, but the role of government and how our federal government continues to overstep and arbitrarily redefine it's mandate. I hope that SC is successful in this, not only from a political standpoint, but also because CFL's suck, and LED technology isn't quite where it needs to be yet for some applications.

 

I hate CFL's. The light they provide is terrible, the dimmable ones suck hard, and typically make noise. They are also a pain in the ass to get rid of because of the mercury content. As a contractor I've had more issues/complaints about them then almost anything else I can remember. Now I'm a cheap bastard, and well do about all I can to save a dime, but I refuse to put them in my house. I can't wait for LED's to come down in price some, as well as work out the heat issues they have when they try to use them in can lights. Even at current prices, I'd probably change my house out to all LED if they got the can light issue resolved.

[Perchoutofwater]

I haven't followed this issue at all, but:

 

1. What's wrong with incandescent?

2. I heard that if a CFL breaks that you have to have a haz-mat company come in a clean it up. Is that true?

3. I'm going to buy LED from now on anyway.

 

1. Incandescent are not nearly as efficient as CFL's. (BTW, the difference in pay back is better between a LED and a CFL than between a CFL and a incadescent) LED's are worth the money right now even though they are still higher than they will be in a year or two. The only problem with LED's is the can light issue. I know they've been working on it, but I do not think it has been resolved. Square may be more up to date on it than I am.

 

2. 1. Before cleanup

a. Have people and pets leave the room.

b. Air out the room for 5-10 minutes by opening a window or door to the outdoor environment.

c. Shut off the central forced air heating/air conditioning (H&AC) system, if you have one.

d. Collect materials needed to clean up broken bulb.

2. During cleanup

a. Be thorough in collecting broken glass and visible powder.

b. Place cleanup materials in a sealable container.

3. After cleanup

a. Promptly place all bulb debris and cleanup materials outdoors in a trash container or protected area until materials can be disposed of properly. Avoid leaving any bulb fragments or cleanup materials indoors.

b. For several hours, continue to air out the room where the bulb was broken and leave the H&AC system shut off.

 

3. That is smart for most fixtures, but as I've said before I wouldn't buy them for can lights until you are sure they have taken care of the heat issue. I try to stay on top of this, because it is something I see saving me a lot of money and to my knowledge they still haven't taken care of the can light issue.

 

You didn't ask about proper disposal of CFL's but it varies by location. In some locations you are required to take them to recycling centers, in others you can just put them in your garbage though they recommend you double bag the bulb and and then put it in a garbage bag. If you are disposing of a lot of them then you have to take special precautions not to run into environmental issues. I know we recently had to pay about a $6,000 premium to properly dispose of some in a building we remodeled.

 

ETA: I mistakenly wrote efficiency in the bolded part instead of payback. LED's are twice as efficient as CFL's but last much, much longer and thus the overall cost when you consider the efficiency and the expected lifetime is much greater in the LED.

 

ETA2: I see that they are now selling LED can lights. I'd still want to talk to someone that knows something about them before I changed out.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Perchoutofwater

[Clubfoothead]

I have a LED bulb I got at Lowes for like 8 bucks. I couldn't believe it. Waiting for one of the CFL's to go out to try it.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

The plan to phase out incandescent bulbs is happening worldwide and was part of a bill passed in 2007.

 

I don't have a problem with it.

[TimC]

Perch, so you're saying throwing it in the neighbor's yard is bad and will probably kill him? I think we found an answer to your fence issue.

[SEC=UGA]

The plan to phase out incandescent bulbs is happening worldwide and was part of a bill passed in 2007.

 

I don't have a problem with it.

 

What you gonna do when all of the mercury from these things being dumped in landfills gets into the ground water?

[Perchoutofwater]

What you gonna do when all of the mercury from these things being dumped in landfills gets into the ground water?

 

There really isn't that much mercury in them. You remember the old glass thermometers we used growing up? They had 125 times more mercury in them than the average CFL. Of course we didn't throw them away all the time, because they didn't wear out. I really think the danger associated with the mercury is completely overstated. The biggest issue with regard to mercury that I see is the over zealous regulation involved in disposing of it, particularly if you are remodeling and changing out a lot of light fixtures.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

The plan to phase out incandescent bulbs is happening worldwide and was part of a bill passed in 2007.

 

I don't have a problem with it.

 

 

What you gonna do when all of the mercury from these things being dumped in landfills gets into the ground water?

 

I'm going to dispose of them properly and hope that others do the same so that it doesn't become a problem. I think they should institute a program where the retailer gives you a credit when you take in an old CFL bulb and then the retailer makes sure it's disposed of properly.

 

 

The article below gives some good info on the whole CFL mercury issue:

 

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prom...eet_Mercury.pdf

[Square]

Incandescent light bulbs (lamps) are crap as far as efficiency and haven't been used in the commercial industry in a long time (can't meet the requirements for watts per square foot with them). The CRI (color rendering index) of CFLs and LEDs have been improved over the years (incandescent is 100 and LEDs are getting to about the low 90s). The problem is that most of you buy CFLs at Lowes or a grocery store. There are lower standards for those kind of lamps than there is in the industry. We sell some Lighting Science LED lamps and they are pretty awesome as far as overall product. I've never heard of anybody doing the process that Perch described for cleaning up a broken CFLs. Fluorescent tubes have been used everywhere for a long time (going back to high mercury T12 lamps) and I've never heard of anyone getting sick or doing anything special (although I would probably stay away from the Japanese Fluorescent lamp fighting that Polk found that one time). So while we've been building commercial and industrial space to be more energy efficient for years we have let home owners off the hook as far as being responsible. At some point the incandescent bulb (unless there is a break through in effeciency which some are working on) will eventually die. You have more problems with heat disipation and light directionality with LEDs but things are getting better. The problem is el cheapo home owner only cares about spending $1 vs $20 on the cost of the lamp instead of how much goes into his electricity bill every month and the system drain it is on the power station.

 

The Lighting Science ones that we sell are sold at Home Depot under the name of Ecosmart. The have an A19 lamp (typical shape of a 60W bulb that you are thinking of) that is pretty good. They don't have the PAR lamps (typically in can lights in the basement of a home) available at the home good stores but you could get them through an electrical distributor (but price shop them and tell them it's a contractor cash sale if you call one).

 

Here is a link to a 40W replacement that only consumes 9W, is dimmable and comes on instantly.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Square

[bushwacked]

I don't really have much of an opinion on this specific issue as I haven't anxiously been scrutinizing the CFL vs. LED issue. However, I'm sure there were people who thought the govt. was overstepping and arbitrarily redefining it's mandate when they outlawed carbon tetrachloride in those old glass grenade fire extinguishers also. Because, you know, outlawing a hazardous material in a fire extinguisher isn't discussed in the Constitution.

[TimC]

Plain and simple...GE owns the Government. I bought some and the first one I tried didn't work. There goes a few bucks opposed to what used to cost a few cents. We put one in our lamp in the living room. At first it was very bright but quickly dimmed to unacceptable levels. I now only put them in light fixtures that I don't read with. And yeah, I get them from Lowes/Home Depot. They are mostly pure crap. No wonder people are hoarding the good old-school ones. Thank you hippies for inventing global warming.

[Perchoutofwater]

I've never heard of anybody doing the process that Perch described for cleaning up a broken CFLs.

 

That is the EPA's recommendation, not mine. If it were at my house, I'd probably just get a small hand broom and dust pan, sweep it into the dust pan, then wash the dust pan and the broom off with the hose in my neighbor's yard when she wasn't looking. I'd also probably put some type of general purpose cleaner on the floor too.

 

What would be the best PAR LED that is dimmable to replace the incandescent bulbs in my cans. Have they worked out the heat issues when installed in an existing recessed fixture? I know they have complete recess units that have a ton of shielding, but it's one thing to unscrew a light bulb, it's another thing entirely changing out 18 fixtures in 12' ceilings when your as fat as I am.

[Perchoutofwater]

Plain and simple...GE owns the Government.

 

There's a lot of truth in that.

[Azazello1313]

the CFLs just now seem to be getting somewhat good. some of the newer ones I've bought (off brand at walmart, actually) turn on quicker, get brighter faster, and have a smaller form factor. little bulbs with 60w equivalent that turn on almost instantly, and way way cheaper than LEDs. I'm ok with that.

 

put a couple LED floods in cans in the kitchen last year. the brightness at 11w is outstanding. they come on (almost) instantly fully bright, and have a really nice quality of light. two pretty big problems though:

1) they're 50 bucks a bulb, and

2) their light cone is really narrow, so they are essentially bright spotlights (compared with incandescent and CFL), meaning you end up with some pretty harsh shadows and such.

I wouldn't really recommend them until those issues start resolving themselves. I'm going to try some of the newer everyday LED "bulbs" next time I need to buy some and see how they work out.

[Square]

For a typical home, is a cheaper LED good enough or should we just spend the money on the better Lighting Science ones?

I think about it this way, you are probably only going to change them once. The lighting science lamps are rated to last 50,000 hours (if you run them 24/7 there are only about 8700 hours in a year). So again, think about buying a quality product and take them with you if you move. These are LM80 tested by the IES. It means that they have met the industry standard for lumen depreciation. You'll most likely be buying something that is very much inferior. It may still last a long time, but it will get darker quickly over time and you'll be replacing them much sooner.

 

Plain and simple...GE owns the Government. I bought some and the first one I tried didn't work. There goes a few bucks opposed to what used to cost a few cents. We put one in our lamp in the living room.

GE, Phillips, and Sylvania are the big 3 and are equally culpable (although I used to work for GE ). The way they actually test rated life hours on a bulb is you run a set amount (say 100 for easy math) and when 50% of them die off, that is the rated life. So if you think a CFL will last 10,000 hours you have a 50/50 shot of them over or underproducing that expected life. LEDs (while it is still possible to have a bad driver or something) do not "pop" at end of life so it is possible they get slightly dimmer but it is a safer bet than the CFLs.

 

What would be the best PAR LED that is dimmable to replace the incandescent bulbs in my cans. Have they worked out the heat issues when installed in an existing recessed fixture? I know they have complete recess units that have a ton of shielding, but it's one thing to unscrew a light bulb, it's another thing entirely changing out 18 fixtures in 12' ceilings when your as fat as I am.

The truth shall set you free! (You crack me up sometimes man. ) Anyway, I'll give you a link to the ones I'm talking about. These are the best we have and we have beaten the other brands (mainly phillips) in specs and engineer's local testing of table topping and installing them side by side. As far as heat issues, the Par 30 and Par 38s are actually rated in an enclosed recessed can. So while all my can lights have exposed bulb these are tested and have been approved to put into a lensed unit. I think that says something about the heat dissipation. Now, these suckers do throw some light. So in my basement I'll probably be replacing my 65W BR40s with a PAR20 version. The overall light level is a little skeewed because LEDs are so much better at pointing that light on the ground compared to the other sources (although they will look ugly in those decorative glass domes that go over most kitchen tables but they are working on omni directional ones).

 

Hit this first link and then click on "Brochure" and then click on Definity Lamp Brochure and you'll get a nice little 8 page .pdf that talks about them.

Par 30

 

Par 20s

 

Overall suggestions:

These have a nice, warm light to them. Light is measured in degrees of Kelvin so a 2700K is going to be very warm where a 5000K is going to be blue like in a jewelry store. Most commercial applications have either 3500K or 4100K lamps in them. So if you ever see a light and it looks half blue and pink its because the lazy maintenance guy doesn't know that these come in different colors. In my house I will probably go with the WW (warm white) option which is considered 3000K. I think it looks nice and I don't necessarily think yellow is better in everything. If you want to get as close to incandescent as possible go with a 2700K. Also if you are worried (like Az) about directionality of the light (avoid the spots) just go with the FL version (short for flood). A NFL (narrow flood) or spot will make it look like a smaller circle of light and although some people like that for certain applications I wouldn't suggest that for general area lighting.

[Azazello1313]

hmm, I might try and pick up one or two of those par30 with the 40-degree beam spread to see how they work out. you say they don't really sell them in stores?

[Perchoutofwater]

hmm, I might try and pick up one or two of those par30 with the 40-degree beam spread to see how they work out. you say they don't really sell them in stores?

 

Don't buy any fixture whether it be plumbing or electrical at a box store. Go to the local electrical supply house or plumbing supply house. The quality of the products is always better, even if it is the same model number. The manufacturers always send their best stuff to the supply houses, because they know that contractors have to warranty their work, and in many cases will come back to them with problems, where as your average homeowner doesn't know chit. Also supply houses are typically very competitively priced compared to box stores.

[Square]

hmm, I might try and pick up one or two of those par30 with the 40-degree beam spread to see how they work out. you say they don't really sell them in stores?

You can find a rep in your area and have them direct you to a couple of their distributors. If you call the distributors tell them its a contractor cash sale for your house (some of them willl bump up the price if they think you are John Q homeowner). If you are serious, let me know what they are charging you and I'll get a price book and give you an idea on if that is fair.

 

map

Click the link, select representatives, click on the USA to zoom in and then find one in your state (they are in most places but not all states at this point).

[Perchoutofwater]

how does a manufacturer know that a particular set of light bulbs are better than another?

 

also, very interesting insight.

 

With a light fixture I'm not real sure. I know on some toilets I've seen to of the exact same model, one from a box store one from the supply house, and the one from the box store will be less than perfect. I saw one where you could tell porcelain was significantly thinner. You have irregularities in production where something may go slight out of tolerance, but will still work. They will send the slightly out of tolerance stuff to the box stores, because they figure the average Joe will never know. I'd imagine lamps and light fixtures are the same. Additionally you'll get a lot better service at the supply house.

[Square]

how does a manufacturer know that a particular set of light bulbs are better than another?

With regard to light bulbs the standards are just higher for commercial products. The tolerances are lower for stuff that is sold to home stores and even lower for grocery stores. One of my college buddies was a GE lighting rep and now works at corporate. Next time I get a beer with him, I'll try to remember to ask what the exacts are but that is the way I remember him telling me before.

[Square]

With a light fixture I'm not real sure.

Typically lesser gauge metal in the housing but they also use a much cheaper ballast in the fluorescent fixtures. Greater harmonics which can cause problems in commercial applications and have virtually no warranty.

[WaterMan]

This will be popular among the meth heads here.

[tazinib1]

hmm, I might try and pick up one or two of those par30 with the 40-degree beam spread to see how they work out. you say they don't really sell them in stores?

 

 

We call those rock and roll cans and the globes come in different wattage. I typically deal with the 1kwatt variety but those are around $100, give or take depending on where you buy them. My best advice is to go on E-Bay..there are always a ton of them for sale.

[Savage Beatings]

Apparantly Ursa's girlfriend has entered a repeal bill in Washington. Let's see if this gets any traction.

[tazinib1]

hmm, I might try and pick up one or two of those par30 with the 40-degree beam spread to see how they work out. you say they don't really sell them in stores?

 

This is a great deal on a 4 pack of Par30 cans