Sieg Heil!

[Chavez]

The victims in Norway were just kids who were interested in doing there civic duty (which by the way is expected of you when you turn 18).

 

This whole "civic duty" thing sounds kinda creepy to me.

[Azazello1313]

This whole "civic duty" thing sounds kinda creepy to me.

 

hey, if it's anyone's "civic duty" to go to political indoctrination camp, that IS creepy.

[Bier Meister]

hey, if it's anyone's "civic duty" to go to jeebus camp, that IS creepy.

 

 

true..... true

[Azazello1313]

true..... true

 

that would be extra creepy.

[BeeR]

Has anyone really tried to imply that I am an ultimate authority on anything?

Yeah, detlef. Didn't they teach reading comprehension somewhere in your alleged schooling?

 

It's a subject I have some familiarity with. Detlef has a great deal of knowledge regarding food. Wiegie has a great deal of knowledge regarding Economics. You seem to have an intimate knowledge of Racism, Bet Welching and General Tooldom. So we all come here to share our strengths. Regarding what Det had asked me about... words have meanings. The meaning of being a Christian is much deeper than simply acting in a certain way. Take it or leave it. No skin off my nose. I actually don't really see how that is even germaine to the topic at hand quite frankly.

So that's why you brought it back up?

 

What a wonderfully Christian post. Jesus would be proud. Off to camp with you now.

[WaterMan]

Racism and tooldom seem to go hand in hand.

[McBoog]

...The meaning of being a Christian is much deeper than simply acting in a certain way. Take it or leave it. No skin off my nose. I actually don't really see how that is even germaine to the topic at hand quite frankly.

 

This.

 

To not accept Christ as your personal savoir... Your choice, not a problem. Many are NEVER afforded the opportunity to know Him or his word. According to the teachings of my Church, this does NOT condemn you to hell.

 

To deny Christ... problem. Take some sun block with you.

 

Trying to tie this to any form of Christianity is to not understand the Word and a failure to apply it in your life in a meaningful way. We are not perfect and we will fall, we will sin. This guy is NOT a Christian and I feel safe in saying that most of us would deny him as such. With 7 billion people on the planet, there are going to be crazies and even groups of crazies no matter what we do. Political, religious, ideological, whatever. There will be a group of goofballs somewhere that will radicalise almost anything. I mean, how do you take "save the planet" and turn it into ELF?

 

For Beck to use the mental imagery that he did at such an inappropriate time is not smart OR Christian. My biggest problem with him in general is that he is way too morally judgemental and belittling! The Christian thing to do would be to pray for the victims and their families and stand by to help if appropriate. We do not judge the victims of tragedy no matter who they are and we pray for the perpetrators to recognize their sins. Hopefully they will find salvation through Jesus and be saved.

 

Despite this, finding Christ only saves your soul, it does not forgive you of your earthly crimes. We are commanded by the Bible to follow the laws of the land. You should and will be punished by society for violating the law and that too is supported in the Bible.

 

Like many say here in Texas, "You come to Texas and kill someone, we gonna kill you back". There are other places to live if you/I don't like that.

 

To teach youth the above message, how is that creepy? To teach them "social justice" or ANY other politically dogmatic material is very creepy. It robs one of their freedom to think for themselves and make their own choices. As a parent I hope to instil a sense of personal reliance and compassion for our fellow man. At that point, they have to choose how they incorporate those values in their lives. Until we are able to take care of "self", we cannot effectively take care of anyone else. I know that as I have gone through life, my political views and leanings have changed greatly in many directions as has my monetary situation. I have been very poor and eaten rice, beans and tortillas for months on end, scared to use the lights or TV because of the electric bill, to the point now in my life where I have more "physical" comfort than ever. In all instances, I was always "free" because my lot was dependent on my labour.

 

The one constant through all of this is my desire for self-reliance, which makes one truly free. Proverbs 14:23 (NIV) And if it matters, I did not "find" Christ until I turned 50. You see, there IS a difference between believing and accepting. My life, as well as my family's, as amazed as I am at saying this, has only gotten better since I have accepted Jesus into my heart.

[wiegie]

my nutjob representative was scheduled to speak to this group tonight: http://www.yaliberty.org/about

 

he is stuck at the capital though waiting to vote no on the Boehner plan

 

:shakes head:

[wiegie]

To teach them "social justice" ... is very creepy.

I agree, anybody who would say the following is really really creepy:

 

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.

 

Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

 

And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'

 

Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

 

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

[Ursa Majoris]

my nutjob representative was scheduled to speak to this group tonight: http://www.yaliberty.org/about

 

he is stuck at the capital though waiting to vote no on the Boehner plan

 

:shakes head:

Huh. He could have shown up, since it looks like he wasn't needed.

 

WASHINGTON (AP) — House Republican leaders have abandoned plans for a vote Thursday night on raising the debt ceiling.

 

The leaders spent much of the day trying to persuade numerous Republicans to support a bill drawn up by Speaker John Boehner. They halted consideration of the bill just as debate was ending in an effort to find more votes for it.

 

Democratic leaders had said no one in their party intended to support the measure.

[Duchess Jack]

Fox says that there is no proof that this cat was Christian.

 

and he goes on to talk about Perch

Edited July 29, 2011 by Duchess Jack

[detlef]

Just going to give this one last shot and also provide a bit of a reason for my part in this hijack. Because this should be entirely about what a d-bag Beck is. However, Savage, and Azz, and others did come out and say, "Sure, pretty effed up but I couldn't help but think..."

 

So, again, it begs the distinction between a camp sponsored by a political party and one sponsored by a church.

 

And you guys keep doing the same thing. Stressing the most virtuous elements of church and most sinister elements of politics. That actually happens a lot when this topic comes up, those who belong to a church really try to pass the less palatable actions of the church as the actions of fringe loonies. But there seem to be a hell of a lot of fringe loonies, so those of us who don't buy in aren't prepared to just go ahead and give that one to you.

 

This isn't to say that you guys or those in your churches must all be nut jobs like them. But rather, that we fairly cast a suspicious eye towards churches. After all, one doesn't have to join a church. The churches don't have a monopoly on morality and goodness. So, for those of us who are sort of bugged out by much of what is done in the name of the church, and by major players in the major religions at that, we can just say, "I'm just going to be good on my own. That way, I don't have to explain why I'm technically in the same religion as that idiot over there"

 

So, when I see bible camp. I don't know if "bible camp" means reading kids very sweet and pure poems like Azz reads to his daughter or if they're scaring kids to death about what's going to land them in hell. So I am, quite fairly and legitimately "creeped out". Now, I'm guessing you guys who do send your kids to these camps either know for sure that it's all about Azz's poem or don't mind the fire and brimstone schtick, so you're not. And that's cool as well. But, for those who are so quick to say it's folly for anyone to be "creeped out" by bible camp because it's so pure. Why are you so quick to assume that a camp sponsored by a political party must certainly cross that line? How do you know?

 

How do you know that they're not just swimming, playing volleyball, flirting with the girls in the other cabin, and mixing in a few harmless lessons about values they associate with their party. In precisely the same way that a church should rightly keep the material to virtue and other "G" rated elements of their religion. And how would it be any "creepier" for such a camp to exist?

 

But make no mistake, both are absolutely about indoctrination. Both are selling their way of life to kids to get them excited about choosing that way going forward. It's just that, in your opinion, one is pure and the other is not. Which, I suppose, is true... except when it's not. And I think history has shown us "it's not" often enough that I don't believe one should be looked upon any more suspiciously than the other.

[TimC]

Has anyone really tried to imply that I am an ultimate authority on anything? It's a subject I have some familiarity with. Detlef has a great deal of knowledge regarding food. Wiegie has a great deal of knowledge regarding Economics. You seem to have an intimate knowledge of Racism, Bet Welching and General Tooldom. So we all come here to share our strengths. Regarding what Det had asked me about... words have meanings. The meaning of being a Christian is much deeper than simply acting in a certain way. Take it or leave it. No skin off my nose. I actually don't really see how that is even germaine to the topic at hand quite frankly.

 

Can I be the eckspurt on Star Trek, Hall & Oates and making the sweet love? Don't make me only pick 2.

[McBoog]

I agree, anybody who would say the following is really really creepy:

 

Wow Wiegie! Thank you! That is a fantastic passage! Mathew 25:31-46 (The sheep and the goats). Why did you edit so much out of it though? (25:40) “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ You also didn't start at the beginning of the passage and omitted too much of what is beautiful about it. Intentional?

 

Your point then, since you failed to articulate why this passage is creepy, is that it is better for government to mandate charity through taxation than for the individual to be responsible for having compassion for their fellow man? Yup. Convinced me, Creepy

 

I had not read this passage before until you brought it to me. Prayed over it and was excited by the fact that you, in your attempt to make "it" creepy, brought me a lesson of charity and compassion for my fellow brothers and sisters. Do you realize HOW APPROPRIATE that passage is to this entire conversation? This is what Beck should have been talking about! Not shunning those in time of need with smarmy, judgemental dogma, but reaching out and caring for them.

 

Christianity has its fringe, just as politics, the environmental movement or any other passionate discussion topic. Islam is still in its "Dark Ages" as a religion and at the same point in its history, Christians were putting witches on the rack. We don't even HAVE a rack at my church anymore

 

Now if THIS guy was up in front of the kids, all day, reading this passage straight from the Bible with no interpretation or how it actually applies in a real sense to them.... Creepy! That is nothing I have experienced with "Bible Camp". Children would be either bored, or not interested in trying to figure out all that "fancy talk". But when guided by good, caring people, even later in life if they were to turn away from the church, if the lesson of charity and compassion were to stick, then something good has come of it. Nothing about Christianity as I know it restricts the individual's free will to choose. They can even choose to shun the church or deny Christ at any time without penalty (on this plane at least).

 

THIS or THIS is what I consider "Bible" camp.

 

Unless you are talking about "student congress" or other like activities (which I competed in as part of the Speech Team in High School), where the mechanics of government are displayed and participated in, any political camp is going to have restricted and politically dogmatic messages. This restricts the freedom to choose. The buy in is absolute and politics is just varying forms of controlling and citizenry. I don't want my kids to learn at such a young age how government works at what the political ideologies are. I want them to learn to be self-reliant and compassionate human beings and let them have the FREEDOM to choose their own political path when they are ready for it and wish to explore it on their own.

 

I find it just as offensive (creepy) that there would be a governmentally sponsored political camp as I would a religious one.

[WaterMan]

I wish most killers wouldn't attach themselves to a religion, especially Christianity. Because people like Fox News will bring out, like Jon Stewart said, the Special Victims Unit for Christians, but blast Muslims in the story right after.

 

These sad stories combined with trying to stir up differences between people is sick.

[detlef]

I find it just as offensive (creepy) that there would be a governmentally sponsored political camp as I would a religious one.

So do I. That's been my point all along. One is just as "creepy" as the other. Both have the chance to not be so, but both certainly have the chance to be so.

 

And, btw, you did it again when you said this: "any political camp is going to have restricted and politically dogmatic messages"

 

How do you know that? Why do you insist we recognize that bible camps are not dogmatic (and I'm not arguing that they absolutely are, rather that there's certainly the chance of that and we've seen evidence to support that) and then turning around and assuming that a camp sponsored by a political party is certainly going to be so.

 

You're asking me to realize that a bible camp can simply be a fun and positive camp about values that should be important to anyone (which I do) and yet refuse to believe that could be the case with a camp sponsored by a political group.

 

Think of it like this. Those of us in the secular realm also like association. The church is not the only place that happens. And perhaps we, like those in the church, crave an association with people who share our values. Well, absent the church, one finds that sort of community in groups that often have a political affiliation. And, yes, I realize that politics has made a bad name for itself. Well guess what, so has religion. So, in both cases, you certainly have the potential for divisiveness and hate, and yet in both cases it can also be about people getting together for the common good. Finding strength in community and such.

 

So, in other words, a youth camp sponsored by a group with political, as opposed to religious association, could basically be the exact same thing as the positive bible camp picture you're painting. Just without the god part. Or, it can be a creepy propaganda-laced programming session. Like, well, some of the notorious "Jesus Camp" places that I'm guessing you would also not approve of.

Edited July 29, 2011 by detlef

[wiegie]

Wow Wiegie! Thank you! That is a fantastic passage! Mathew 25:31-46 (The sheep and the goats). Why did you edit so much out of it though? (25:40) “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ You also didn't start at the beginning of the passage and omitted too much of what is beautiful about it. Intentional?

 

Your point then, since you failed to articulate why this passage is creepy,

My point is NOT that the passage is creepy at all. It is not creepy. It is the exact opposite of creepy.

 

My comment was directed at your idea that "social justice" is creepy. I was trying to show that Jesus disagreed with you.

[SEC=UGA]

My point is NOT that the passage is creepy at all. It is not creepy. It is the exact opposite of creepy.

 

My comment was directed at your idea that "social justice" is creepy. I was trying to show that Jesus the people who wrote down what Jesus supposedly said, many centuries after his death, disagreed with you.

 

Edited for accuracy.

[detlef]

Edited for accuracy.

Werd

[wiegie]

Edited for accuracy.

that's fine--just trying to show McBoog that "social justice" is a longstanding, fundamental Christian idea

[SEC=UGA]

that's fine--just trying to show McBoog that "social justice" is a longstanding, fundamental Christian idea

 

I'm more old testament than new testament.

[Azazello1313]

My comment was directed at your idea that "social justice" is creepy. I was trying to show that Jesus disagreed with you.

 

"social justice" in the current parlance typically refers to a theology of progressive politics, embodied in people like jim wallis. kind of the left wing tit for the "christian conservative" tat. I personally find all of that hijacking of jesus for petty political aims extremely creepy.

 

when jesus talked about "justice" and concern for the poor, I don't think he was necessarily stumping on behalf of the modern welfare state.

[SEC=UGA]

"social justice" in the current parlance typically refers to a theology of progressive politics, embodied in people like jim wallis. kind of the left wing tit for the "christian conservative" tat. I personally find all of that hijacking of jesus for petty political aims extremely creepy.

 

when, as written a few centuries later by his disciples who were using him as a symbol in order to indoctrinate people for their own personal gain, jesus talked about "justice" and concern for the poor, I don't think he was necessarily stumping on behalf of the modern welfare state.

 

Edited for accuracy

[Azazello1313]

Edited for accuracy

 

ok, but I'm curious when you talk about his disciples indoctrinating people for their own personal gain. exactly what personal gain are you referring to?

[TimC]

ok, but I'm curious when you talk about his disciples indoctrinating people for their own personal gain. exactly what personal gain are you referring to?

 

Preacher drivin' a Caddy.