Sieg Heil!

[SEC=UGA]

ok, but I'm curious when you talk about his disciples indoctrinating people for their own personal gain. exactly what personal gain are you referring to?

 

You checked the balance of the Catholic Church's bank account lately? Have you seen the guilded buildings that the heads of the Church have lived in throughout history? Have you studied how the church, while wielding the hly scripture, plundered the welth and resources of nations? Have you watched how the church has used the word of god and his son have beasically enslaved entire nations? Have you witnessed how this power has allowed church leaders to murder, steal from and molest people throughout its history?

 

The church has done some good, don't get me wrong, it has instilled a moral code that keeps societies from jumping into total and complete anarchy. But the intent is to control people, to extract resources from these people, to keep these people beholden to something, a power structure here on earth with direction from a divine being that offers people providence in times of need and uncertainty, but for this s peace of mind we have all sold our souls to a group of "leaders" that are pillaging us blind. Kinda like social security, medicare, well, the US government as a whole.

[Savage Beatings]

Edited for accuracy

 

Interesting Side Note: It has been reported that while studying the Dead Sea Scrolls it was discovered that excerpts from the Gospel of Mark were found on one side of a document dated at approximately 45AD (only about 12 years after the death of Jesus - which means, if true, it must have been already written and distributed decades earlier than previously thought).

[Azazello1313]

You checked the balance of the Catholic Church's bank account lately? Have you seen the guilded buildings that the heads of the Church have lived in throughout history? Have you studied how the church, while wielding the hly scripture, plundered the welth and resources of nations? Have you watched how the church has used the word of god and his son have beasically enslaved entire nations? Have you witnessed how this power has allowed church leaders to murder, steal from and molest people throughout its history?

 

I thought you were talking about the disciples who wrote the gospels.

 

your edit was "...as written a few centuries later by his disciples who were using him as a symbol in order to indoctrinate people for their own personal gain". I'm just asking what you're referring to.

 

if you said, "as written a few decades later, by disciples who probably edited freely in order to address theological problems and situations in the late first century churches", I think you would have been more accurate.

[SEC=UGA]

Interesting Side Note: It has been reported that while studying the Dead Sea Scrolls it was discovered that excerpts from the Gospel of Mark were found on one side of a document dated at approximately 45AD (only about 12 years after the death of Jesus - which means, if true, it must have been already written and distributed decades earlier than previously thought).

 

So when the king James version of the bible was being written they were studying these texts? Don't think so. Very, very few documents have been found to support that the Christian theology was anything more than orally passed on for centuries following his death. And we know how oral traditions end up... with an impeached president.

 

Even then, we have also recovered texts that were discarded and not incorporated into the Christian bible. So, who was the final arbiter of what ws to be included... Man. And why were certain gospels included and not others... because they didn't fit the mold of what those in power wanted to have preached.

 

Look, the bible is great for certain people. It fills them with hope and makes their lives better. But, to look at the bible as being something that is absolute is just insane.

[Azazello1313]

Very, very few documents have been found to support that the Christian theology was anything more than orally passed on for centuries following his death.

 

completely false. decades, yes. centuries, no. most of the new testament can be convincingly dated to the mid-to-late first century. the earliest writings were some of paul's letters, the oldest of which date back to about AD 50. among the gospels, mark's is almost certainly the oldest, and dates to the early 70s. (the qumran theory savage mentioned is not generally accepted). dating of the other three gospels is somewhat speculative, but there is generally a consensus that all were composed after mark, but probably before the end of the first century. even the latest composed documents in the new testament were probably completed by the middle of the second century.

 

Even then, we have also recovered texts that were discarded and not incorporated into the Christian bible. So, who was the final arbiter of what ws to be included... Man. And why were certain gospels included and not others... because they didn't fit the mold of what those in power wanted to have preached.

 

when you are talking about official canonical lists (as opposed to the writings themselves), this is somewhat accurate. the writings that were excluded from the canon were excluded largely because their claims about dating and authenticity were perceived (probably correctly) to be suspect. on the other hand, I would definitely say that some other books with specious claims about dating and authorship WERE included (second peter and jude, for example) because they were convenient theologically for those making the cut a couple centuries later.

 

but by and large, the writings of the new testament are the oldest, most authentic, and most important writings we have about the life of jesus and the early church.

[Ursa Majoris]

when jesus talked about "justice" and concern for the poor, I don't think he was necessarily stumping on behalf of the modern welfare state.

He certainly wasn't stumping on behalf of the modern conservative either. The tide of bigotry, hate and intolerance belching from both the leaders and the rank and file of the so-called "conservative Christians" seems to me that it would be absolute anathema to Jesus.

[Azazello1313]

He certainly wasn't stumping on behalf of the modern conservative either.

 

didn't I say that?

[Ursa Majoris]

didn't I say that?

Not sufficiently clearly, no. I knew you wanted my help so I rushed in to assist you for free, like the liberal do-gooder I am

[bpwallace49]

I still miss perch

[Azazello1313]

I knew you wanted my help so I rushed in to assist you for free, like the liberal do-gooder I am

 

I know you are just being cute, because a true liberal do-gooder would leave that to the government.

[Ursa Majoris]

I know you are just being cute, because a true liberal do-gooder would leave that to the government.

Government for the people of the people by the people. I was fulfilling the by the people piece.

[Yukon Cornelius]

I like the wurd TOOLDOM... I think in uconese it will be Tewldum!!!

[Chavez]

I'm more old testament than new testament.

 

If it was an Old Testament idea, then it would be a longstanding Jewish tradition.

[McBoog]

He certainly wasn't stumping on behalf of the modern conservative either. The tide of bigotry, hate and intolerance belching from both the leaders and the rank and file of the so-called "conservative Christians" seems to me that it would be absolute anathema to Jesus.

 

There you go with your labels again. You have to fit people in to nice compartments so you know how to marginalize them with your canned blah blah

 

Jesus, nor the Lord, would stump for either. What I do know is that nowhere in the Bible does it talk of forced charity, which is "social justice". Charity is something that is to be done when you can and if appropriate. The richest AND the poorest can all find charitable things to do or give. For government to take, involuntarily, the assets of one and force them to give to another is definitely an affront to the Word. It removes the opportunity for one to exhibit his/her worthiness of the gift that God gave us all, John 3:16.

 

It is all about free will and how you exercise it. We know what is expected of us, but only we can choose to follow, or not.

[BeeR]

There you go with your labels again. You have to fit people in to nice compartments so you know how to marginalize them with your canned blah blah

[McBoog]

And, btw, you did it again when you said this: "any political camp is going to have restricted and politically dogmatic messages"

 

...

 

So, in other words, a youth camp sponsored by a group with political, as opposed to religious association, could basically be the exact same thing as the positive bible camp picture you're painting. Just without the god part. Or, it can be a creepy propaganda-laced programming session. Like, well, some of the notorious "Jesus Camp" places that I'm guessing you would also not approve of.

 

I think there is a difference between spiritually enlightening (independent of the type of religion) and politically educating. I also know that fanaticism is fanaticism independent of the mask it wears.

 

I can see the link of being awed by a stunning sunset or relived that an opportunity has presented itself in a time of difficulty with being thankful to The Lord for such wonders/gifts while at camp. Can this be abused and turned "creepy"? Absolutely. But there at least remains the possibility for great good for the individual growth, benefiting society as a whole.

 

I can't make that jump in ANY form of politically sponsored camp. What could be said at the end of a hike through some serene mountain pass at a political camp? "Thank you Oh great Miserly and Tight-fisted one for the beautiful coins in my piggy bank!" or "Hail be the one who has taken from the rich and given to the poor?" This is not to say that those at the political camp appreciate the beauty of the sunset any less, but rather how do the "leaders" address that appreciation at a deeply personal level while staying "on topic" at a political camp? Camper 1, "Nice sunset!" Camper 2, "Yup!"

 

I have seen great beauty that has brought tears to my eyes and I have personally seen some of the most horrific acts that man can do to each other that also have made me cry. In both instances I invoke God in one way or another without realizing I am doing so at the time. God gives me strength and He gives me wonder.

 

I am the first to admit that many horrific acts have and are done in the name of religion. For centuries, the Church has been used way too oppressively to control the masses and gather wealth. One of the biggest violators of this has been the Catholic church and I was raised Catholic, but I am very much a Christian. I can see the great risk for abuse and nefarious use of the influence that religion can wield (opiate of the masses thingy). It can also be wholesome and enriching if presented correctly, honestly and with a focus on the growth of the individual. In my experience, I have see the Catholic church very lacking in this arena. Any belief that shrouds His Word in mystery, secrecy and ritual without open discussion of what the message really says and how it applies to one's daily life is to be questioned.

 

I don't see any scenario where a politically focused camp could instil any spiritual growth or true benefit to the individual. The very nature of politics is adversarial and dogmatically positional.

 

AND... when I say "spiritual" it does not specifically imply Christ or any religion for that matter. I refer more to the intellectual self-awareness of who I am and how amazing the world/universe is around me.

 

I do not pity or look down upon those who do not believe in God as I do. But, I do pray for them.

[BeeR]

I think detlef got you and Savage Beatings mixed up.

[Ursa Majoris]

There you go with your labels again. You have to fit people in to nice compartments so you know how to marginalize them with your canned blah blah

 

Jesus, nor the Lord, would stump for either. What I do know is that nowhere in the Bible does it talk of forced charity, which is "social justice". Charity is something that is to be done when you can and if appropriate. The richest AND the poorest can all find charitable things to do or give. For government to take, involuntarily, the assets of one and force them to give to another is definitely an affront to the Word. It removes the opportunity for one to exhibit his/her worthiness of the gift that God gave us all, John 3:16.

 

It is all about free will and how you exercise it. We know what is expected of us, but only we can choose to follow, or not.

This is nothing more than self-justifying windbaggery.

[McBoog]

This is nothing more than self-justifying windbaggery.

 

And this is nothing more that elitist dismissism. You have nothing interesting to say or add, so you denigrate. You are compelled to be mean and rude to back off those who disagree with you and you are clearly an intolerant and empty soul, trying to fill your intellectual dishonesty by spewing meaningless, non-productive dribble.

 

At least detlef and I are having a conversation. Sit back and listen to how the big boys "talk" to each other without feeling compelled to insult when you have nothing germane or pertinent to add.

 

Where did you go again? I can't see you!

[McBoog]

This is nothing more than self-justifying windbaggery.

 

OR...

 

Step up and try to explain why you make this statement!

 

What am I trying to "self-justify?"? I don't get it!

[evil_gop_liars]

What am I trying to "self-justify?"? I don't get it!

 

[whomper]

I think what Az is saying is that a political camp, by nature, is going to disparage opposing party beliefs whether direct or indirectly. A religious camp may promote the faith that it is based on and spirituality etc while not saying or teaching anything geared towards tearing down different faiths.

 

My church offers summer catechism camps that are about 2 weeks. My kids never come home and say today they taught us why muslims are wrong and Jews are missing the point. They just learn religious education

 

Of course there will be exceptions on both sides of the aisle and I am sure you can find Religious camps that may dismiss and disparage other faiths and you may find political camps that strictly speak of the ideals of their party. It just seems by nature a political camp would fire some shots at the opposing parties more than most Religious camps

[BeeR]

And this is nothing more that elitist dismissism. You have nothing interesting to say or add, so you denigrate. You are compelled to be mean and rude to back off those who disagree with you and you are clearly an intolerant and empty soul, trying to fill your intellectual dishonesty by spewing meaningless, non-productive dribble.

 

At least detlef and I are having a conversation. Sit back and listen to how the big boys "talk" to each other without feeling compelled to insult when you have nothing germane or pertinent to add.

 

Where did you go again? I can't see you!

 

 

And here I thought this thread was played out.

[Clubfoothead]

I subscribe to John 4:20

[Duchess Jack]

I subscribe to John 4:20

 

John 4:20 (or perhaps better called Mary 4:20) makes communion waffers taste good.