Computer programming

[Seahawks21]

I know I'm going to get several different answers here, depending on backgrounds and even geography, but what would be a good first language to learn? What figures to be in the most demand? Which language makes it the easiest to get a job, or which language gives you the best chance at keeping your job? I'm mainly thinking about designing applications, as I figure that will be in the most demand in the near future, but maybe I'm wrong there as well. Where are the jobs going to be? I know this is very general question, bare with me as I don't know much about this yet.

[Tford]

For database development and management, you need SQL.

 

For software and web development, you should start with Java. HTML probably wouldn't hurt either for the web side of things.

 

It really depends on what you want to do. Realistically, any good programmer needs to know how to program in more than one language.

 

 

Personally, I'd start with HTML if you aren't the most computer savvy. Then try Java and build from there.

[tosberg34]

Depending on what you are looking to do, a lot of businesses use Microsoft technologies behind their applications. For Web, HTML is a nice base to start with but you should eventually move into ASP.NET. The language usually behind that is either c# or vb.net, with c# being more prevalent and preferred. However, If you know one, though, you should know the other as the concepts are the same - it's just a matter of syntax. They also leverage javascript within their web applications too, so learning that is definitely a must. You should also look into Jquery as well - this is more of a javascript library that makes writing javascript easier.

 

So, basically, if you're going to go Microsoft I would start with that. Look into Visual Studio 2010 as that is their main development tool for their web, desktop and many other types of applications for a Windows world.

 

They also have several more advances suites of tools for specialized development but you can get into those later when you become actually become more advanced. Every place I've worked in has had Visual Studio as the main development tool, though (I mostly work in the insurance industry).

Edited October 14, 2011 by tosberg34

[jberg]

I've been a software engineer professionally for about 12 years now. I'm also self taught so I know where you're coming from.

 

I really recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Begin...5112&sr=8-5

 

It's kind of old now but that doesn't matter as the basics it will teach you apply to any language. After struggling with teach yourself C/C++ books for months and just not getting it I stumbled upon this book. That's when I really had an "aha" moment. A lot of language specific books like the Teach yourself Java books assume you already know basic programming constructs like what a "for" loop is. Even though they always say no prior programming knowledge required, they won't explain this stuff. They just focus on the language syntax. If you don't know what a variable is or a function you're immediately lost by the second page of the book and it will never clear it up for you.

 

What I like about that book is that it's also sort of a history lesson. It starts by explaining simply how computers work, binary etc. Why programming languages exits and what they're abstracting. It has a chapter on each popular programming language from the early days of computers with Assembly language then Fortran, Cobol, Basic etc. up to C++ and Java. I found it was really helpful to know why things are, rather than just how to use them. A lot of languages exist in their current form because they grew out of these earlier languages. Knowing that history is very helpful. You gotta know where you've come from to know where you're going.

 

You need to know more than just programming languages to stand a chance in the industry. You'll almost never find a job that doesn't list SQL as a requirement. Even the simplest applications, even basic websites tend to have some sort of database back end no matter what language they're written in. You kind of have to know HTML these day, it's just everywhere and even if you're not working on a website chances are you'll still have to deal with it. That's an easy one though.

 

There is a ton of stuff to learn and honestly don't expect to be any good for at least 3 years. There is a good reason you'll always see 3-5 years experience required on job postings. It's because almost all of us suck up until that point. I thought I knew what I was doing after a year or so. Now looking back I know just how little I understood. The important thing is experience, in this industry that weighs so much more than education. I have no degree, never went to college and I've been gainfully employed for 12 years doing this. The hardest job to get is your first one, once you have a few years experience the world is your oyster. I.

[tosberg34]

I've been a software engineer professionally for about 12 years now. I'm also self taught so I know where you're coming from.

 

I really recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Begin...5112&sr=8-5

 

It's kind of old now but that doesn't matter as the basics it will teach you apply to any language. After struggling with teach yourself C/C++ books for months and just not getting it I stumbled upon this book. That's when I really had an "aha" moment. A lot of language specific books like the Teach yourself Java books assume you already know basic programming constructs like what a "for" loop is. Even though they always say no prior programming knowledge required, they won't explain this stuff. They just focus on the language syntax. If you don't know what a variable is or a function you're immediately lost by the second page of the book and it will never clear it up for you.

 

What I like about that book is that it's also sort of a history lesson. It starts by explaining simply how computers work, binary etc. Why programming languages exits and what they're abstracting. It has a chapter on each popular programming language from the early days of computers with Assembly language then Fortran, Cobol, Basic etc. up to C++ and Java. I found it was really helpful to know why things are, rather than just how to use them. A lot of languages exist in their current form because they grew out of these earlier languages. Knowing that history is very helpful. You gotta know where you've come from to know where you're going.

 

You need to know more than just programming languages to stand a chance in the industry. You'll almost never find a job that doesn't list SQL as a requirement. Even the simplest applications, even basic websites tend to have some sort of database back end no matter what language they're written in. You kind of have to know HTML these day, it's just everywhere and even if you're not working on a website chances are you'll still have to deal with it. That's an easy one though.

 

There is a ton of stuff to learn and honestly don't expect to be any good for at least 3 years. There is a good reason you'll always see 3-5 years experience required on job postings. It's because almost all of us suck up until that point. I thought I knew what I was doing after a year or so. Now looking back I know just how little I understood. The important thing is experience, in this industry that weighs so much more than education. I have no degree, never went to college and I've been gainfully employed for 12 years doing this. The hardest job to get is your first one, once you have a few years experience the world is your oyster. I.

 

Great Post, jberg. You hit it right on the head, especially with the experience factor.

[Seahawks21]

I've been a software engineer professionally for about 12 years now. I'm also self taught so I know where you're coming from.

 

I really recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Begin...5112&sr=8-5

 

It's kind of old now but that doesn't matter as the basics it will teach you apply to any language. After struggling with teach yourself C/C++ books for months and just not getting it I stumbled upon this book. That's when I really had an "aha" moment. A lot of language specific books like the Teach yourself Java books assume you already know basic programming constructs like what a "for" loop is. Even though they always say no prior programming knowledge required, they won't explain this stuff. They just focus on the language syntax. If you don't know what a variable is or a function you're immediately lost by the second page of the book and it will never clear it up for you.

 

What I like about that book is that it's also sort of a history lesson. It starts by explaining simply how computers work, binary etc. Why programming languages exits and what they're abstracting. It has a chapter on each popular programming language from the early days of computers with Assembly language then Fortran, Cobol, Basic etc. up to C++ and Java. I found it was really helpful to know why things are, rather than just how to use them. A lot of languages exist in their current form because they grew out of these earlier languages. Knowing that history is very helpful. You gotta know where you've come from to know where you're going.

 

You need to know more than just programming languages to stand a chance in the industry. You'll almost never find a job that doesn't list SQL as a requirement. Even the simplest applications, even basic websites tend to have some sort of database back end no matter what language they're written in. You kind of have to know HTML these day, it's just everywhere and even if you're not working on a website chances are you'll still have to deal with it. That's an easy one though.

 

There is a ton of stuff to learn and honestly don't expect to be any good for at least 3 years. There is a good reason you'll always see 3-5 years experience required on job postings. It's because almost all of us suck up until that point. I thought I knew what I was doing after a year or so. Now looking back I know just how little I understood. The important thing is experience, in this industry that weighs so much more than education. I have no degree, never went to college and I've been gainfully employed for 12 years doing this. The hardest job to get is your first one, once you have a few years experience the world is your oyster. I.

Thanks for taking the time! Thanks to all of you, but this post was pretty awesome. I'm going to go check the library system after work and see if I can find the book, if not I might not purchase it. I've got very, very basic HTML knowledge. I do understand that you never stop with one language, as the whole thing never stops evolving. I guess what I'm learning is that it doesn't really matter where I start. I thought about going with C++ just to get down to the roots, and make sure I learn thoroughly, but I've heard that I'll end up wasting a lot of time being frustrated by messes that don't really matter, if you understand what I'm saying. I understand this is a process. I can't afford to put myself through school at this point, and it seems like if you can program, you can program. You'll get a job. It may be hard to get interviews with big companies, but if you can program, you can find work, and if you can't program, all the schooling in the world isn't going to help. I'm not looking at this as a get-rich-quick. I'm hoping to be proficient enough to gain employment in 2-3 years, and kind of do it right.

 

One of my good friends has been doing this for quite some time. He keeps recommending that I learn Ruby. I've done a little research, and while it seems that there aren't that many places out there that use Ruby, I have also read more in at least a few places that they don't know anybody that can write Ruby code that is out of work. I also read somewhere, not sure if it is legitimate, that Java is the most widely used language at the moment. But while there are tons of Java jobs out there, there is no shortage of people proficient in Java that are constantly looking for work. I think I'd rather be in the smaller pond, as long as there won't be a complete shortage of jobs.

 

Our web developer at the site I work for now says PHP is the only way to go. Basically all of you had different answers as well, so it really seems that: A. different languages do different things, depending on what interests you, and B. it doesn't really matter, just learn a language and start writing code and you can adapt from there. If there was one way to do it, everybody would be doing it that way.

 

Being that I live in Seattle, I should probably strongly consider the Microsoft angle. And thanks for the SQL recommendation. I kind of thought that might be the case but wasn't sure.

 

Everybody says don't do it for the money. Well, I'm doing it for the money. I never woke up and said "I want to write and de-bug code for the rest of my life." I am a bit turned on by math and logic, so hopefully I start to get caught up in learning this stuff and start to enjoy it. Thanks all again for the replies, and I hope you don't mind if I pick your brains a bit as I move forward.

[10g_DBA]

I'll know better what to recommend if you tell me where the offshore development center is and when you plan to move there. India, China, Brazil, or Russia?

[Big John]

I'll know better what to recommend if you tell me where the offshore development center is and when you plan to move there. India, China, Brazil, or Russia?

Or Philippines? (Mrs S21 is from there)

[Seahawks21]

Or Philippines? (Mrs S21 is from there)

Don't tease me like that BJ! Oh, that would be a dream! Except for the whole $10/week thing.

[Ursa Majoris]

I'll know better what to recommend if you tell me where the offshore development center is and when you plan to move there. India, China, Brazil, or Russia?

He should do that if he plans to suck and write incredibly bad code while failing to understand any of what he is supposed to be achieving. Otherwise, he should stay here. One developer employee > three outsourced developers.

[10g_DBA]

He should do that if he plans to suck and write incredibly bad code while failing to understand any of what he is supposed to be achieving. Otherwise, he should stay here. One developer employee > three outsourced developers.

Amen, brother. Preachin' to the choir.

[tosberg34]

He should do that if he plans to suck and write incredibly bad code while failing to understand any of what he is supposed to be achieving. Otherwise, he should stay here. One developer employee > three outsourced developers.

 

See, we can agree on some things. This is the truth and I know it first hand.

[gilthorp]

Some great information here.

 

I've been on the IT business side in consulting for many years.

 

The hottest trends that I see are:

 

1. Mobile Application Development

2. Network Security

 

 

Now, depending on how technical you are, or if you are more artistic, I would recommend moving towards the HTML route, CSS, and then taking the path into Flex or Silverlight. There will continue to be a high demand of graphical user interface people, and there just aren't enough of them.

[Delicious_bass]

Thanks for taking the time! Thanks to all of you, but this post was pretty awesome. I'm going to go check the library system after work and see if I can find the book, if not I might not purchase it. I've got very, very basic HTML knowledge. I do understand that you never stop with one language, as the whole thing never stops evolving. I guess what I'm learning is that it doesn't really matter where I start. I thought about going with C++ just to get down to the roots, and make sure I learn thoroughly, but I've heard that I'll end up wasting a lot of time being frustrated by messes that don't really matter, if you understand what I'm saying. I understand this is a process. I can't afford to put myself through school at this point, and it seems like if you can program, you can program. You'll get a job. It may be hard to get interviews with big companies, but if you can program, you can find work, and if you can't program, all the schooling in the world isn't going to help. I'm not looking at this as a get-rich-quick. I'm hoping to be proficient enough to gain employment in 2-3 years, and kind of do it right.

 

One of my good friends has been doing this for quite some time. He keeps recommending that I learn Ruby. I've done a little research, and while it seems that there aren't that many places out there that use Ruby, I have also read more in at least a few places that they don't know anybody that can write Ruby code that is out of work. I also read somewhere, not sure if it is legitimate, that Java is the most widely used language at the moment. But while there are tons of Java jobs out there, there is no shortage of people proficient in Java that are constantly looking for work. I think I'd rather be in the smaller pond, as long as there won't be a complete shortage of jobs.

 

Our web developer at the site I work for now says PHP is the only way to go. Basically all of you had different answers as well, so it really seems that: A. different languages do different things, depending on what interests you, and B. it doesn't really matter, just learn a language and start writing code and you can adapt from there. If there was one way to do it, everybody would be doing it that way.

 

Being that I live in Seattle, I should probably strongly consider the Microsoft angle. And thanks for the SQL recommendation. I kind of thought that might be the case but wasn't sure.

 

Everybody says don't do it for the money. Well, I'm doing it for the money. I never woke up and said "I want to write and de-bug code for the rest of my life." I am a bit turned on by math and logic, so hopefully I start to get caught up in learning this stuff and start to enjoy it. Thanks all again for the replies, and I hope you don't mind if I pick your brains a bit as I move forward.

Some of the other fellas have already given some good advice. I will try to add some as well.

 

While its true what you say here "if you can program, you can program" its not necessarily true what you say here "You'll get a job." Job market being what it is, there are a lot of experienced and/or degreed programmers looking for work that you're likely going to be up against. Since it sounds like you will not have the paper recruiters are looking for (as you said "It may be hard to get interviews with big companies" (as they can afford to just chuck any resumes with no degree if they want)) I would highly recommend trying to get yourself an internship as you're learning to program. Might be tough to get one of those, too, if you're not part of a program at a school, but you may be able to talk your way into one. Even if its just part-time or doesnt pay squat, etc, just take it. An internship will allow you to demonstrate what you can do and that may translate into an offer with that company. If not that company, it's a great thing you'll be able to put on your resume that will help catch a prospective employer's eye. Also, as you're developing your skills, keep some of the projects you work on. You may be able to get someone to take a look at what you've done and that may help get them to give you a shot. Without a degree, you're going to need something to make you stand out or give you an angle in.

 

I certainly dont mean to make it sound like its going to be a nightmare or in any way discourage you from pursuing a career as a programmer. Just trying to give you an idea of what you may be up against so you can start thinking about/preparing for it as you go.